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Old 03-29-2022, 05:44 PM   #5281
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dylpopsicle View Post
Ok, Just tried that. Made it worse.
If it matters I am in filmaker mode with processing enhancements off.
Try going to Cinema Mode or if you are playing SDR content, go to ISF Bright or Dark room. Then make sure all processing enhancements are turned "off." Then compare Real Cinema turned "On" and "Off." I know that Filmmaker Mode may turn "Off" Real Cinema automatically aka it's greyed out.
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Old 03-29-2022, 06:16 PM   #5282
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As we are on this subject, it's interesting that there are no videos out there showing what settings are actually disabled when using Filmmaker Mode. Not even Vincent Teoh is showing what actually is going on in Filmmaker Mode. It's just very odd to me.
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Old 03-29-2022, 06:43 PM   #5283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
Try going to Cinema Mode or if you are playing SDR content, go to ISF Bright or Dark room. Then make sure all processing enhancements are turned "off." Then compare Real Cinema turned "On" and "Off." I know that Filmmaker Mode may turn "Off" Real Cinema automatically aka it's greyed out.
Funny I thought it was grayed out the day but thinking back it was probably because I had tru-motion enabled....which was even worse. IIRC tru-motion disables Real cinema.
Anyhow it is not grayed out any more. I will try ISF later today.
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Old 03-30-2022, 02:34 PM   #5284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
Motion interpolation is the "Smooth" setting inside the TrueMotion settings. Black Frame Insertion is the "OLED Motion" setting inside the TrueMotion settings. I believe that if you have "OLED Motion Pro," it includes dark frame insertion as the "Low" and "Medium" settings, and BFI on the "High" setting.
Ok thanks.

Itís a bonkers setup.

As I stated when you go to TruMotion... you can select ďUserĒ instead of the default presets. Doing so will then bring up de-judder & de-blur. Each of these is a slider. Below that is OLED Motion Pro. Clicking that will take you to another page of Low, Medium, High & Auto.

So if Iím reading you guys right, if I select OLED Motion Pro to High, BFI will be introduced?

What about the presets?

Cinematic Movement
Smooth
Smoother

Etc.

Thanks again.
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Old 03-30-2022, 02:38 PM   #5285
Derb Derb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
Try going to Cinema Mode or if you are playing SDR content, go to ISF Bright or Dark room. Then make sure all processing enhancements are turned "off." Then compare Real Cinema turned "On" and "Off." I know that Filmmaker Mode may turn "Off" Real Cinema automatically aka it's greyed out.
For the C1, On some streaming apps.. popular ones, LG has greyed out Real Cinema & it is turned on. Either Disney or Netflix.. am pretty sure it’s a Dolby Vision thing which greys out the option for Real Cinema On LG’s Apps.

Edit also on Apple TV4K box.
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Old 03-30-2022, 02:44 PM   #5286
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With this years G series now having the heat sync, will heat syncs be used on the flagship Z series as well? If not it would seem a rather foolish omission on LG's part for an inferior tv to have a picture and burin in control feature not available on the flagships.
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Old 03-30-2022, 03:10 PM   #5287
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derb View Post
Ok thanks.

Itís a bonkers setup.

As I stated when you go to TruMotion... you can select ďUserĒ instead of the default presets. Doing so will then bring up de-judder & de-blur. Each of these is a slider. Below that is OLED Motion Pro. Clicking that will take you to another page of Low, Medium, High & Auto.

So if Iím reading you guys right, if I select OLED Motion Pro to High, BFI will be introduced?

What about the presets?

Cinematic Movement
Smooth
Smoother

Etc.

Thanks again.
No, BFI will be introduced on the Motion Pro setting with the Low, Medium, and High settings. However on the High setting, flicker will still happen but flicker doesn't happen on the Low or Medium settings.

As to the presets, those are the Motion Interpolation Settings (Motion Pro is BFI). Cinematic Movement will get rid/smooth out the stutter we see with 24 fps content. However, there is still some SOE with faster panning scenes, making it still a flawed setting. Natural and Smooth Movement will introduce SOE to the majority of the content played. User allows you to adjust it to your liking.
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Old 03-30-2022, 03:12 PM   #5288
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derb View Post
For the C1, On some streaming apps.. popular ones, LG has greyed out Real Cinema & it is turned on. Either Disney or Netflix.. am pretty sure itís a Dolby Vision thing which greys out the option for Real Cinema On LGís Apps.

Edit also on Apple TV4K box.
From what I know, when the setting is greyed out, it means that it is not in use. So, even though it says it's "On" it really isn't. Like I've been able to turn Real Cinema "Off" on apps and even if it's greyed out, it now says "Off."
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Old 03-30-2022, 10:24 PM   #5289
KC-Technerd KC-Technerd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
I wonder if having a 48 Hz mode, just like plasmas, would solve these issues?? The stutter wouldn't be as apparent and the 24 fps content would be smooth.
The difference in the appearance of motion on display technologies that display each individual frame on screen for most or all of the frame interval (such as LCDs and our OLEDs) vs. those that only display each frame for a small fraction of the frame interval (CRT and Plasma) is well explained in the video below. Yes this is from 2013, but what is being said about motion blur is equally applicable to OLEDs and any future technology that displays frames for most or all of the frame interval. (The difference is not due to having a 48 Hz mode.)

The appearance of stutter results from the combination of motion blur and low frame rate. In that case the image on the retina basically ends up being a series of sequential overlapping blurs when the eye is following motion on the screen.

The relevant discussion begins at 40:21.

Last edited by KC-Technerd; 03-30-2022 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 03-30-2022, 10:39 PM   #5290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derb View Post
Ok thanks.

It’s a bonkers setup.

As I stated when you go to TruMotion... you can select “User” instead of the default presets. Doing so will then bring up de-judder & de-blur. Each of these is a slider. Below that is OLED Motion Pro. Clicking that will take you to another page of Low, Medium, High & Auto.

So if I’m reading you guys right, if I select OLED Motion Pro to High, BFI will be introduced?

What about the presets?

Cinematic Movement
Smooth
Smoother

Etc.

Thanks again.
I'll try to assess those when I can, but I'm not even sure I have the same presets on my C9.

I am making an assumption about the Low and Medium settings of OLED Motion Pro (which my C9 doesn't have), in my belief that they likely use dark frame insertion rather than black frame insertion. Dark frame insertion simply means that a dimmed frame is inserted rather than a completely black one. Otherwise it is the same as black frame insertion. Dark frames are used instead of black frames in order to reduce the appearance of flicker and to reduce the dimming effect. This was something Sony used back when black frame insertion was first introduced, but I'm not finding that term in any recent google search hits. I'm also not finding anything explaining how LG is reducing the flicker and dimming in the Low and Medium OLED Motion Pro settings. If I had a CX or later I could attempt to assess it. 240Hz video capture with an iPhone would likely reveal whether dark frames are being used, or if there is some new method for doing this. If there is some new method (which I doubt), I'd be curious what it is.
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Old 03-31-2022, 02:16 AM   #5291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derb View Post
What about the presets?

Cinematic Movement
Smooth
Smoother

Etc.
Just checked my C9. For the TruMotion presets, it only has:

Off
Smooth
Clear
User

I'm not sure how/if/which translate to your presets.
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:44 PM   #5292
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
The difference in the appearance of motion on display technologies that display each individual frame on screen for most or all of the frame interval (such as LCDs and our OLEDs) vs. those that only display each frame for a small fraction of the frame interval (CRT and Plasma) is well explained in the video below. Yes this is from 2013, but what is being said about motion blur is equally applicable to OLEDs and any future technology that displays frames for most or all of the frame interval. (The difference is not due to having a 48 Hz mode.)

The appearance of stutter results from the combination of motion blur and low frame rate. In that case the image on the retina basically ends up being a series of sequential overlapping blurs when the eye is following motion on the screen.

The relevant discussion begins at 40:21.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Mx53ycf00&t=2421s
I get that now. It's not so much of the refresh rate, it's just the display and hold technology that is in OLEDs that give that more evident stutter that we see.
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:51 PM   #5293
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
Just checked my C9. For the TruMotion presets, it only has:

Off
Smooth
Clear
User

I'm not sure how/if/which translate to your presets.
It doesn't translate. LG has really improved upon their TruMotion and Motion Pro settings since our C9s. Basically, our C9 motion settings are mediocre to the C1's and of course now C2.

This is why I truly think there is no way to get great 24 fps motion with the C9. That's why I have elected to turn "Off" Real Cinema since I am very sensitive to the stutter and there is no way to correct that without implementing SOE. Plus, again I feel like the C9's Real Cinema function introduces a little SOE, which renders it useless for 24 fps content.

Now, LG has improved upon this motion with the CX and C1 with Cinematic Movement but even then it's still not perfect. They need to find the perfect algorithm to get rid of the stutter (or at least most of it) while also not implementing SOE. If they can do that, true 24 fps content can be enjoyed on LG OLEDs and would be very similar if not identical to what we see in the theater.
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Old 04-01-2022, 07:50 AM   #5294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
It doesn't translate. LG has really improved upon their TruMotion and Motion Pro settings since our C9s. Basically, our C9 motion settings are mediocre to the C1's and of course now C2.

This is why I truly think there is no way to get great 24 fps motion with the C9. That's why I have elected to turn "Off" Real Cinema since I am very sensitive to the stutter and there is no way to correct that without implementing SOE. Plus, again I feel like the C9's Real Cinema function introduces a little SOE, which renders it useless for 24 fps content.

Now, LG has improved upon this motion with the CX and C1 with Cinematic Movement but even then it's still not perfect. They need to find the perfect algorithm to get rid of the stutter (or at least most of it) while also not implementing SOE. If they can do that, true 24 fps content can be enjoyed on LG OLEDs and would be very similar if not identical to what we see in the theater.
Thanks for the feedback both of yas.

Yeah I can confirm the C1ís Cinematic Movement isnít flawless. It does a pretty good job at making the motion more natural than SOE. However if you are at all sensitive to SOE, you definitely can tell itís a bit too smooth in some scenes.

Also reason why I donít use it is because the C1 isnít that bad at 24p. Minor stutter during panning shots. Though from what Iíve seen, itís more the way the film was shot rather than the C1 struggling to do 24p.
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Old 04-01-2022, 11:24 AM   #5295
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derb View Post
Thanks for the feedback both of yas.

Yeah I can confirm the C1’s Cinematic Movement isn’t flawless. It does a pretty good job at making the motion more natural than SOE. However if you are at all sensitive to SOE, you definitely can tell it’s a bit too smooth in some scenes.

Also reason why I don’t use it is because the C1 isn’t that bad at 24p. Minor stutter during panning shots. Though from what I’ve seen, it’s more the way the film was shot rather than the C1 struggling to do 24p.
And, at least in my opinion, the C9 stutters quite a bit. It sounds like to me they either improved the "Real Cinema" function or the panel hardware has improved. Mind you I am sensitive to the stuttering, but none the less, it is noticeable to me compared to the judder that is present when I have Real Cinema "Off."

Even with a 2 year jump from the C9 to the C1, it shows that LG has improved upon their technology to bring you the best picture quality possible. I just wish they could update their algorithms via firmware to help the older models out. But it's possible it's more in the hardware and not in the firmware. But who knows. Just wish us older LG OLED model users could get a bit more in the way of improvements.

Last edited by PUsokrJosh305; 04-01-2022 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 04-01-2022, 03:08 PM   #5296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
And, at least in my opinion, the C9 stutters quite a bit. It sounds like to me they either improved the "Real Cinema" function or the panel hardware has improved. Mind you I am sensitive to the stuttering, but none the less, it is noticeable to me compared to the judder that is present when I have Real Cinema "Off."

Even with a 2 year jump from the C9 to the C1, it shows that LG has improved upon their technology to bring you the best picture quality possible. I just wish they could update their algorithms via firmware to help the older models out. But it's possible it's more in the hardware and not in the firmware. But who knows. Just wish us older LG OLED model users could get a bit more in the way of improvements.
My biggest wish list is an obvious one.

Dimming be gone without Service Remote when watching dark shows/films.

To me that is more important than some stutter.
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Old 04-02-2022, 05:35 AM   #5297
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I realized a few days ago that I had another method of evaluating the results of Real Cinema settings that I had not yet utilized. I am able to play back the 240 frame per second video captured by my iPhone's camera as sequential still frames by exporting the video and using QuickTime Player to play it. The results are as expected. I've evaluated with the 24p Stock Ticker pattern from Spears & Munsil, and with 24p film based video. The results between those are identical. This is duplicatable by using any 240 fps camera and playing back the individual frames. The film/video does need to have enough movement present to make the individual frames identifiably different from each other.

Setup 1: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 60Hz output - "Real Cinema" OFF: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at alternating intervals of 8 frames (8/240ths or 1/30th of a second) and 12 frames (12/240ths or 1/20th of a second). At the display's 120Hz refresh rate this is 6:4 pulldown (6 refreshes, 4 refreshes, 6, 4, 6, 4, etc.) which is the same as 3:2 pulldown. As expected, the Blu-ray player is obviously performing the pulldown in order to output at 60Hz.

Setup 2: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 24Hz output - "Real Cinema" OFF: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at alternating intervals of 8 frames (8/240ths or 1/30th of a second) and 12 frames (12/240ths or 1/20th of a second). The result is completely identical to Setup 1. In this case the TV's electronics/processing is obviously performing the 3:2 pulldown converting the incoming 24p to 60p for display.

Note: As I tried to make clear before, if the TV is displaying 24Hz at the correct frame interval without 3:2/6:4 pulldown then the result should be distinguishable from having the Blu-ray player set to 60Hz output in normal viewing as well as in testing. On the LG C9 with Real Cinema turned OFF the results are identical with no distinguishable difference. The end results between setups 1 & 2 appear exactly the same because they are the same. I have seen several people report that they prefer the appearance of "Real Cinema" Off. I assume this is due to the judder (the alternating frame interval) breaking up the otherwise steady pattern of stutter.

Setup 3: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 24Hz output - "Real Cinema" ON: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at repeating intervals of 10 frames (10/240ths or 1/24th of a second). This is correct display of 24fps at one consistent frame interval of 1/24th of a second for each frame.

Setup 4: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 60Hz output - "Real Cinema" ON: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at repeating intervals of 10 frames (10/240ths or 1/24th of a second). With "Real Cinema" ON the C9 is recognizing the 24fps contained within the 60Hz video (that is that it detects that 3 identical 60 Hz frames are followed by 2 identical 60 Hz frames, followed by 3 identical 60 Hz frames, and so on) and reverses the 3:2 pulldown process to restore the original consistent frame interval of 1/24th of a second.

These results leave no doubt that Real Cinema is performing as many reviewers have already indicated. Real Cinema must be "ON" for the 24 fps frame interval timing to be correct, that being each new frame being displayed 1/24th of a second after the previous frame. With Real Cinema "OFF' 24 fps will be displayed by alternating two frame intervals, one longer than 1/24th second, and one shorter than 1/24th second. The term "judder" is used to represent the result of this repeated alternation between two frame intervals. This simply is the way the C9 is working, like it or not. (I'd far prefer that LG didn't convert 24p video to 60p when Real Cinema is turned OFF.)

The function of identifying 24fps contained in 60Hz video is not likely to be reliable under all circumstances. I've seen it have problems with broadcast TV on multiple occasions. As I've said before, I believe Oppo at one time had a similar automatic function for DVDs and abandoned it because they found it unreliable. I witnessed considerable motion issues during the titles of Star Trek on broadcast TV the other night. (Jumpy motion of the Enterprise slowly crossing the screen.) That is true 24p film on 60Hz video. My guess is that the detection was intermittently detecting the 24p, and as a result was intermittently turning the inverse 3:2 pulldown on and off.
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Old 04-02-2022, 06:41 AM   #5298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
It doesn't translate. LG has really improved upon their TruMotion and Motion Pro settings since our C9s. Basically, our C9 motion settings are mediocre to the C1's and of course now C2.

This is why I truly think there is no way to get great 24 fps motion with the C9. That's why I have elected to turn "Off" Real Cinema since I am very sensitive to the stutter and there is no way to correct that without implementing SOE. Plus, again I feel like the C9's Real Cinema function introduces a little SOE, which renders it useless for 24 fps content.

Now, LG has improved upon this motion with the CX and C1 with Cinematic Movement but even then it's still not perfect. They need to find the perfect algorithm to get rid of the stutter (or at least most of it) while also not implementing SOE. If they can do that, true 24 fps content can be enjoyed on LG OLEDs and would be very similar if not identical to what we see in the theater.
The C9s were supposed to have (and supposedly do have) OLED Motion Pro capability, but it was disabled by LG before they began deliveries. There's a thread over in AVSForum regarding a hack to reactivate access to the OLED Motion Pro settings.

You may "feel" like Real Cinema adds SOE, but there is no motion interpolation occurring as a result of Real Cinema being turned on. Soap Opera Effect is of course a term used to describe 24fps based video looking more like TV shows that were captured directly to 60i video (such as many soap operas) than 24 fps film. This is the result of a real frame rate higher than 24fps*, or a high frame rate created by motion interpolation. If you want to see what SOE looks like, set TruMotion to "Clear" and watch some 24p movies and TV shows.

*There have been a few experiments with using higher frame rates than 24fps for film and movies. Cinerama used 26fps for their exhibition/travelogue films, but went to 24fps for their traditional story based movies. The original Todd-AO system used 30fps for the first two movies. One of those is the 30 fps version of "Oklahoma" which is available on Blu-ray and an interesting watch. The motion in it certainly seems more like direct to video television than traditional 24fps film. Here's a list of more recent movies that have high frame rates. Very few of them are available at high frame rate for home video.

I'm highly doubtful that there really is anyway to eliminate, or significantly reduce the stutter on an OLED without introducing SOE or making other compromises, particularly by means of any improved or perfect algorithm. It should be remembered that we are watching a sequence of still images in rapid succession in order to produce the illusion of motion. If the frame rate is increased by either motion interpolation or more real still images, the result is SOE. Reducing the display time of each frame (considerable black or dark display time between frames such as BFI) does reduce the stutter, but that also reduces the perceived brightness. Particularly for HDR, I think it's going to take a display technology other than OLED to strobe a bright enough image to make that practical. LCD and OLED are really built around the image being displayed for the entire frame interval.

Last edited by KC-Technerd; 04-02-2022 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 04-02-2022, 04:40 PM   #5299
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^In addition to the above, I'd really like to find a clear description of what "Cinematic Movement" is actually doing. Vincent Teoh seems to suggest that it works well, but with some SOE evident in faster motion. I haven't seen it at all. Is it a combination of motion interpolation with black/dark frame insertion? I have a theory of a way to simulate a slower frame/pixel transition that might reduce the perceived judder without adding SOE. I don't know if anyone building OLED sets has tested or incorporated what I'm thinking, and I don't know how well it would work. I wish I had some way to test it, short of having to design and build my own TV.

As far as what is seen in movie theaters, there are a number of differences from the home viewing environment that potentially affect the perception. Usually the image in movie theaters is dimmer than what we watch at home, and covers a much larger viewing angle. The brighter/higher contrast image at home is likely to emphasize the perception of stutter. The significant difference in viewing angles may result in the viewer focusing on different aspects of the image (for example focusing on a single character rather than the overall image).

We've discussed how film is projected in the theater with the double shuttering per frame, but many (/most?) theaters have moved to digital projectors. From what I can find digital projectors either use Texas Instrument's Digital Light Processing, or Sony's Silicon X-tal Reflective Display (SXRD) technologies for creating the image. Sony discontinued their SXRD projectors for the cinema at the end of 2020, but there are still many cinemas that use ones purchased prior to that time. I have a Sony rear projection TV which uses the same SXRD imaging technology. The stutter appearance on it is nearly identical to OLED but perhaps slightly muted due to the lower contrast (no true black), at least to my perception. I don't have much experience with TI's DLP technology. Most home implementation of DLP that I'm aware of has had at least one significant difference from what is used in the theater (single chip vs. 3 chip, not to mention wobulation). I have found almost nothing regarding how DLP performs regarding motion/stutter perception. I'm also finding nothing in regards to any attempt to use black/dark frame insertion or any other method to simulate the double shuttering of cinema film projectors. I would think with newer projectors using lasers as the (potentially significantly brighter) illumination source with DLP that BFI or some other method of shortening the frame display time without significant dimming might be possible.

I do recall a specific scene in the 2009 "Star Trek" movie that looked just as horribly stuttery in the theater as it does now when played on my LG C9. There's a shot of an Iowa corn field with Kirk riding his motorcycle across the full width of the screen in the distance. Kirk and his motorcycle are an indistinct blur that stutters across the top of the image. The speed of motion just doesn't work with the 24 fps frame rate. (I think it goes along well with J.J.'s lens flares, shaking the camera violently, etc.). I remember it looking bad in the trailer before I saw the movie, and then looking bad when I saw the movie in the theater. 24fps has significant limitations in reproducing the perception of smooth motion no matter what technology is used to display it. But we are trying to reproduce at least part of that limitation when displaying 24fps. If we completely remove the limitations to the perception of smooth motion created by the frame rate, then we end up with Soap Opera Effect. In other words we're making it look more like it was filmed/videod at a higher frame rate than 24fps. Higher frame rates do result in a more accurate perception of motion, but it's not the way we're used to watching movies.
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Old 04-03-2022, 06:06 PM   #5300
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
I realized a few days ago that I had another method of evaluating the results of Real Cinema settings that I had not yet utilized. I am able to play back the 240 frame per second video captured by my iPhone's camera as sequential still frames by exporting the video and using QuickTime Player to play it. The results are as expected. I've evaluated with the 24p Stock Ticker pattern from Spears & Munsil, and with 24p film based video. The results between those are identical. This is duplicatable by using any 240 fps camera and playing back the individual frames. The film/video does need to have enough movement present to make the individual frames identifiably different from each other.

Setup 1: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 60Hz output - "Real Cinema" OFF: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at alternating intervals of 8 frames (8/240ths or 1/30th of a second) and 12 frames (12/240ths or 1/20th of a second). At the display's 120Hz refresh rate this is 6:4 pulldown (6 refreshes, 4 refreshes, 6, 4, 6, 4, etc.) which is the same as 3:2 pulldown. As expected, the Blu-ray player is obviously performing the pulldown in order to output at 60Hz.

Setup 2: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 24Hz output - "Real Cinema" OFF: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at alternating intervals of 8 frames (8/240ths or 1/30th of a second) and 12 frames (12/240ths or 1/20th of a second). The result is completely identical to Setup 1. In this case the TV's electronics/processing is obviously performing the 3:2 pulldown converting the incoming 24p to 60p for display.

Note: As I tried to make clear before, if the TV is displaying 24Hz at the correct frame interval without 3:2/6:4 pulldown then the result should be distinguishable from having the Blu-ray player set to 60Hz output in normal viewing as well as in testing. On the LG C9 with Real Cinema turned OFF the results are identical with no distinguishable difference. The end results between setups 1 & 2 appear exactly the same because they are the same. I have seen several people report that they prefer the appearance of "Real Cinema" Off. I assume this is due to the judder (the alternating frame interval) breaking up the otherwise steady pattern of stutter.

Setup 3: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 24Hz output - "Real Cinema" ON: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at repeating intervals of 10 frames (10/240ths or 1/24th of a second). This is correct display of 24fps at one consistent frame interval of 1/24th of a second for each frame.

Setup 4: 24p video - Blu-ray player set to 60Hz output - "Real Cinema" ON: When still stepping though the 240fps frames captured in the iPhone video, transitions between the original 24 fps frames occur at repeating intervals of 10 frames (10/240ths or 1/24th of a second). With "Real Cinema" ON the C9 is recognizing the 24fps contained within the 60Hz video (that is that it detects that 3 identical 60 Hz frames are followed by 2 identical 60 Hz frames, followed by 3 identical 60 Hz frames, and so on) and reverses the 3:2 pulldown process to restore the original consistent frame interval of 1/24th of a second.

These results leave no doubt that Real Cinema is performing as many reviewers have already indicated. Real Cinema must be "ON" for the 24 fps frame interval timing to be correct, that being each new frame being displayed 1/24th of a second after the previous frame. With Real Cinema "OFF' 24 fps will be displayed by alternating two frame intervals, one longer than 1/24th second, and one shorter than 1/24th second. The term "judder" is used to represent the result of this repeated alternation between two frame intervals. This simply is the way the C9 is working, like it or not. (I'd far prefer that LG didn't convert 24p video to 60p when Real Cinema is turned OFF.)

The function of identifying 24fps contained in 60Hz video is not likely to be reliable under all circumstances. I've seen it have problems with broadcast TV on multiple occasions. As I've said before, I believe Oppo at one time had a similar automatic function for DVDs and abandoned it because they found it unreliable. I witnessed considerable motion issues during the titles of Star Trek on broadcast TV the other night. (Jumpy motion of the Enterprise slowly crossing the screen.) That is true 24p film on 60Hz video. My guess is that the detection was intermittently detecting the 24p, and as a result was intermittently turning the inverse 3:2 pulldown on and off.
Although you are right about Real Cinema giving the true 24 fps, I have to disagree with your difference between Real Cinema Being "Off" and switching between 24 Hz vs 60 Hz.

I decided to take a look at "real world content" and not a test pattern. I popped in my 4K UHD of The Shining. Now, I have a Panasonic 820. There is only one option for me to choose when turning 24p "Off" or "Auto." I know there are several options on the Oppo-203. But that's all I have to do to get either a 60 Hz signal (when 24p is "Off") and a 24 Hz signal when it's "On." This is still with Real Cinema "Off."

When I turned 24p "Off" and watched the opening credits, I noticed there was a decent amount of judder with the opening panning shots as well as the Title Text. I also viewed a few shots inside at the hotel, and again I noticed a decent amount of judder.

But, when I turned 24p "On," I noticed the majority of the judder was taken care of in the title sequence as well as the scenes in the hotel. Again, there was still some slight judder to the scenes, but not as much as when the signal was at 60 Hz.

To me, this tells me that at least setting it to 24p allows some of the judder to be eliminated. Does this mean all of it is gone, NO. IT just means that the processing does improve with it.

As to what you did: Again, I am not a fan of the Stock Ticker Test Pattern. You have to understand that most "stock tickers" will be on 30 or even 60 fps content, not 24 fps. So, its a silly test pattern to look at. I would rather you look at panning shot at 24 fps (real world content) than something that would not exist in most films. Again, I agree that "Real Cinema" is how you can experience true 24 fps, however with the LG C9 not having go motion settings to eliminate stutter, I cannot watch it. So, I will leave it "Off."
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