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Old 12-19-2016, 03:03 PM   #61
whipnet whipnet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
That would just be another band aid. There needs to be one code that works everyplace just like a DVD will play on anybody's DVD player.
I was going to compare DMA with Disney Blu-ray's only playing on special Disney Blu-ray players. Good point, thanks for saying it.

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Old 12-19-2016, 06:08 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
The system is already in place....consumers need to shift focus from arguing studios need to make codes to work in all store fronts to, pressuring store fronts that continue to not join, to do so, imo.
Group #1. Warner Bros., Sony, Lionsgate, Universal, Paramount, FOX, FandangoNow, ULTRA, and CinemaNOW support Ultraviolet, but not KeyChest.

Group #2. Disney, Apple, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft all support KeyChest, but not UV.

Why do you feel that the groups in group #1 are right, and not group #2?


Quote:
Originally Posted by whipnet View Post
I was going to compare DMA with Disney Blu-ray's only playing on special Disney Blu-ray players. Good point, thanks for saying it.
If I want to watch my UV copy of Warner Bros. "Curly Sue", I have to watch it on either VUDU, FandangoNOW, or Flixster Video, but if I want to watch my digital copy of "Captain America: Civil War", I can watch it via iTunes, VUDU, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft Movies & TV, or Disney Movies Anywhere app itself.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:17 PM   #63
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Let's get real here. Unless you're using Vudu, UV is garbage.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:27 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
Group #1. Warner Bros., Sony, Lionsgate, Universal, Paramount, FOX, FandangoNow, ULTRA, and CinemaNOW support Ultraviolet, but not KeyChest.

Group #2. Disney, Apple, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft all support KeyChest, but not UV.

Why do you feel that the groups in group #1 are right, and not group #2?
I think what some are saying is (using the groups above) that group #1 was started and others could have joined. Instead, group #2 formed (only one studio really)...years later.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:33 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by squatting hen View Post
I think what some are saying is (using the groups above) that group #1 was started and others could have joined. Instead, group #2 formed (only one studio really)...years later.
Last mile copper has existed for years, but ISPs have... years later, started to extend fiber to the home.

Just because UV was first doesn't mean it's the best.

Yes, Disney has a lot of pull, but we still have to ask ourselves why KeyChest is acceptable to Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, but not UV?
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Old 12-19-2016, 07:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
Group #1. Warner Bros., Sony, Lionsgate, Universal, Paramount, FOX, FandangoNow, ULTRA, and CinemaNOW support Ultraviolet, but not KeyChest.

Group #2. Disney, Apple, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft all support KeyChest, but not UV.

Why do you feel that the groups in group #1 are right, and not group #2?




If I want to watch my UV copy of Warner Bros. "Curly Sue", I have to watch it on either VUDU, FandangoNOW, or Flixster Video, but if I want to watch my digital copy of "Captain America: Civil War", I can watch it via iTunes, VUDU, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft Movies & TV, or Disney Movies Anywhere app itself.
In both cases it's just Disney movies and Disney movies alone. You cannot buy 2001 A Space Odyssey on Google and expect to view it on Amazon, iTunes or all others you mentioned. Only Disney movies. So if Disney is all you watch, then great, yes DMA is better. But you're missing the big picture.

If I buy almost anything NON-Disney on VUDU, FandangoNOw, Flixster, I can watch them on any UV supported service. Right now, I have no use for Google, iTunes, Amazon, etc because of this and I will never purchase a non-disney movie from them until they join UV.

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Old 12-19-2016, 07:19 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by whipnet View Post
In both cases it's just Disney movies and Disney movies alone. You cannot buy 2001 A Space Odyssey on Google and expect to view it on Amazon, iTunes or all others you mentioned. Only Disney movies. So if Disney is all you watch, then great, yes DMA is better. But you're missing the big picture.
So, what you're saying is that the only movies you can watch via Disney Movies Anywhere are Disney movies? I never realized that.

KeyChest is the technology behind DMA. If WB supported KeyChest as well as UV, you could potentially buy "2001: A Space Odyssey" on Google Play and (potentially) view it on Amazon, iTunes, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whipnet View Post
If I buy almost anything NON-Disney on VUDU, FandangoNOw, Flixster, I can watch them on any UV supported service. Right now, I have no use for Google, iTunes, Amazon, etc because of this and I will never purchase a non-disney movie from them until they join UV.
Suppose Universal decides to join KeyChest, but still remain a member of Ultraviolet. Would that be okay with you? Imagine purchasing a film on iTunes which is then ported to VUDU via KeyChest, and VUDU adds the film to your UV locker. Would this be acceptable to you?


I'll be honest, I must not be seeing the big picture, because I'm not sure what the big picture is.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:02 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
Group #1. Warner Bros., Sony, Lionsgate, Universal, Paramount, FOX, FandangoNow, ULTRA, and CinemaNOW support Ultraviolet, but not KeyChest.

Group #2. Disney, Apple, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft all support KeyChest, but not UV.

Why do you feel that the groups in group #1 are right, and not group #2?




If I want to watch my UV copy of Warner Bros. "Curly Sue", I have to watch it on either VUDU, FandangoNOW, or Flixster Video, but if I want to watch my digital copy of "Captain America: Civil War", I can watch it via iTunes, VUDU, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft Movies & TV, or Disney Movies Anywhere app itself.
It's not a matter of right or wrong, just that we need a unified system instead of the fragmented systems we have now. But to your question...
Disney is alone in the formation of DMA, not exactly a democratic process. Sure, some of the biggest vendors joined after Apples Exclusive period.

Ultraviolet was formed by a dozen or so studios plus dozens of tech companies. Everybody was invited to help form and vote for a new universal system. Just about everybody showed up to input ideas and eventually vote, except Disney and Apple of course.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:05 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
Last mile copper has existed for years, but ISPs have... years later, started to extend fiber to the home.

Just because UV was first doesn't mean it's the best.

Yes, Disney has a lot of pull, but we still have to ask ourselves why KeyChest is acceptable to Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, but not UV?
This is all guesswork but, it may have to do with Disney and Apple being tied at the hip, along with Apple getting a nice exclusive period, with others following Apple...
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:39 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
It's not a matter of right or wrong, just that we need a unified system instead of the fragmented systems we have now. But to your question...
On this we somewhat agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
Disney is alone in the formation of DMA, not exactly a democratic process. Sure, some of the biggest vendors joined after Apples Exclusive period.
Not that I have anything against the democratic process, but too many cooks can sometimes spoil the broth. Ultraviolet works mostly well, and a few technical issues aside, works pretty well for most major studios (minus Disney of course), but it's not perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
Ultraviolet was formed by a dozen or so studios plus dozens of tech companies. Everybody was invited to help form and vote for a new universal system. Just about everybody showed up to input ideas and eventually vote, except Disney and Apple of course.
So, you're saying that Amazon, Google, Microsoft, etc. showed up to vote, but still don't support UV how many years after UV was launched, yet support KeyChest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
This is all guesswork but, it may have to do with Disney and Apple being tied at the hip, along with Apple getting a nice exclusive period, with others following Apple...
I agree that Apple's relationship with Disney probably influenced their decision to support KeyChest, but here's the thing.

I'm neutral. I love a lot of Apple's products, but I have no problem criticizing them when I disagree with a decision. I would have liked iTunes to be a UV provider, and the same goes for Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and even Sony's PSN, which, unlike Sony's Ultra service, does not support UV. A lot of people blamed Apple (other providers as well, but Apple gets the most flack about it) saying they were greedy because they want your money all to themselves (imagine a company being in it for the money, sigh...), but regardless of Apple's relationship with Disney, Apple has proven that given the right circumstances, they're willing to support a locker based system. Amazon and Microsoft also have a relationship with Disney, and it's possible Disney pressured them into support, but why couldn't Ultraviolet have pressured Amazon and Microsoft into support as well if this had been the reasons for their decision to support KeyChest, but not UV?

Everyone seems quick to post statements that seem to imply that had Apple and Disney fallen in line with Ultraviolet, everything would be just fine, but what if there are valid reasons why Apple, Disney, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. support KeyChest, but not UV?
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
It's not a matter of right or wrong, just that we need a unified system instead of the fragmented systems we have now. But to your question...
Disney is alone in the formation of DMA, not exactly a democratic process. Sure, some of the biggest vendors joined after Apples Exclusive period.

Ultraviolet was formed by a dozen or so studios plus dozens of tech companies. Everybody was invited to help form and vote for a new universal system. Just about everybody showed up to input ideas and eventually vote, except Disney and Apple of course.
Apple and Disney always seem to get the "blame" without acknowledging Amazon, Google Play and Microsoft's refusal to join UV and UV's own shortcomings. I would have to imagine the non UV market share of movie purchases (not code redemptions or D2D) is bigger than the UV share.

There will not be a unified system. It is what it is.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:43 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
So, what you're saying is that the only movies you can watch via Disney Movies Anywhere are Disney movies? I never realized that.

KeyChest is the technology behind DMA. If WB supported KeyChest as well as UV, you could potentially buy "2001: A Space Odyssey" on Google Play and (potentially) view it on Amazon, iTunes, etc.



Suppose Universal decides to join KeyChest, but still remain a member of Ultraviolet. Would that be okay with you? Imagine purchasing a film on iTunes which is then ported to VUDU via KeyChest, and VUDU adds the film to your UV locker. Would this be acceptable to you?


I'll be honest, I must not be seeing the big picture, because I'm not sure what the big picture is.
That's a lot of "what if's".... The fact is, these studio's are with UV already and it's a far superior hierarchy.

If it's a UV vs Keychest, there's no comparison. Keychest has Disney. How many movies UV vs Keychest. (That's rhetorical, it's not close) SO why didn't Disney just join the rest with UV? As I mentioned above Disney had to be Disney.

If Google, iTunes, Amazon want to see a dime with me, they need to join UV like the rest of the world with the grownup movies.

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Old 12-19-2016, 09:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by whipnet View Post
That's a lot of "what if's".... The fact is, these studio's are with UV already and it's a far superior hierarchy.
Studio wise, it's a far superior hierarchy (numbers wise anyway), but provider wise, KeyChest has the far superior hierarchy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whipnet View Post
If it's a UV vs Keychest, there's no comparison. Keychest has Disney. How many movies UV vs Keychest. (That's rhetorical, it's not close) SO why didn't Disney just join the rest with UV? As I mentioned above Disney had to be Disney.
Disney had to be Disney. Apple had to be Apple. Amazon had to be Amazon. Google had to be Google. Microsoft had to be Microsoft.

Yes, KeyChest, developed by Disney, only has the Disney studio using it. This thread is about other studios supporting KeyChest. The amount of movies UV has compared to DMA is not relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whipnet View Post
If Google, iTunes, Amazon want to see a dime with me, they need to join UV like the rest of the world with the grownup movies.
That's your prerogative.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:06 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Greyman View Post
There will not be a unified system. It is what it is.
Agreed!

I don't ever see Disney supporting UV, and I'm skeptical that we'll ever see iTunes, Microsoft, Google, or Amazon supporting it either.

The best case scenario (in my mind) is Universal, Paramount, Fox, etc. supporting UV + KeyChest.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:11 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
Studio wise, it's a far superior hierarchy (numbers wise anyway), but provider wise, KeyChest has the far superior hierarchy.



Disney had to be Disney. Apple had to be Apple. Amazon had to be Amazon. Google had to be Google. Microsoft had to be Microsoft.

Yes, KeyChest, developed by Disney, only has the Disney studio using it. This thread is about other studios supporting KeyChest. The amount of movies UV has compared to DMA is not relevant.



That's your prerogative.
I see you'll argue anything regardless of what is presented. So I will lastly say that VUDU's interface on Windows, Android, and Roku (all I need) is far superior to any other interface or player anywhere else in the industry. Hands down. And they support them all so my money goes to them.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:44 PM   #76
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I see you'll argue anything regardless of what is presented. So I will lastly say that VUDU's interface on Windows, Android, and Roku (all I need) is far superior to any other interface or player anywhere else in the industry. Hands down. And they support them all so my money goes to them.
thats your opinion of course but dma includes vudu so its rather irrelevant.

I will say I have seen the most glitches out of any streaming service come out of the vudu streaming service including audio sync errors caption sync errors, video playback failure, excessive dmr that interferes with just normal playback on some computers and missing titles within the library. Its nice for you that vudu works but vudu on some systems is so glitchy that the service is basically worthless.

Its why I find dma a better service the codes don't expire and they work over basically every major distributor at this point. If disney has a problem on one provider I simply watch the movie on anouther provider if a uv code has a problem on vudu I basically cant watch the movie at all.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:36 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by twobelowpar View Post
Let's get real here. Unless you're using Vudu, UV is garbage.
Vudu is definitely my preferred provider, but FandangoNow's streaming itself is very good quality. Their library interface sucks big time, but the actual streaming is good. Hopefully they'll fix the horrible interface/library at some point. Right now they're using the same crappy one they inherited from M-Go.

While Vudu is my preferred provider they do have some serious shortcomings in customer service, films with the wrong OAR (which other services have correct) and the same general problem that their is across all UV providers (UV at some places but not others, SD only at some providers while HD or even UHD elsewhere). It would be nice to see Vudu's competitors step up and offer better competition too.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:02 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post
Everyone seems quick to post statements that seem to imply that had Apple and Disney fallen in line with Ultraviolet, everything would be just fine, but what if there are valid reasons why Apple, Disney, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. support KeyChest, but not UV?
Alan Gordon gets it. (And a few others.) We have no idea about the hidden drawbacks of UV; maybe implementation or fees are too burdensome. Maybe KeyChest is easy to implement and has no costs. Maybe the UV sharing model is too confusing for consumers and maybe KeyChest's is natural.

BTW, if UltraViolet is so wonderful for providers why have we only seen retailers shrink or disappear? It might as well be "UVUDU" because there's only one useful UV provider left and international UV support is laughable. If VUDU implemented family sharing - like Apple and Google do - there wouldn't be any point to UV.

And let's not get into the history of issues UV has had over the past 5 years... MyUV still doesn't display my account correctly.

The market is shifting to streaming but as far as EST, iTunes reportedly still has 60% of the market and VUDU still represents under 5%. So if you like numbers, if 75% of VUDU's sales have UV rights that represents 4% of the market. If 10% of iTunes's sales have DMA that represents 6% of the market. Who's winning?

It's interesting to see Warner make noise about hooking up with DMA and now they're trying to replicate Disney's success with their WB Movies All Access app.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is like the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray war. And UV may be HD-DVD here if we see any other studios join KeyChest. You can still watch your HD-DVDs but you won't be able to buy them in the future.

Here's how I see a studio transitioning to KeyChest. It's basically the same scenario as when the four Marvel movies changed from UV to DMA. If you purchased or redeemed a movie when it had UV rights, you still have those UV rights in your UV locker and they can be imported to other UV linked accounts. But you also got DMA rights - in the account you purchased/redeemed in. New movies weren't issued UV rights and instead were issued DMA rights.

So to use Warner as an example, if you redeemed Sully now at VUDU you have UV rights to Sully in your UV locker. Warner moves to KeyChest next March.

All the Warner titles you purchased or redeemed in your account get new KeyChest rights, including Sully. The rights are pushed to your linked KeyChest locker and you can view them in iTunes, Amazon, etc.

In 2017 you redeem Wonder Woman at VUDU. You only get KeyChest rights. Wonder Woman shows up in iTunes and Amazon but not other VUDU accounts. VUDU is at a competitive disadvantage here and implements family sharing for up to 6 accounts.

UV heads towards legacy status. 99% of consumers are unaffected. This does not require any linkage between UV and KeyChest so it can be implemented studio by studio on their own timetable. This is also why you probably wouldn't see a UV-KeyChest link-up: all of DECE would have to agree to it, I think, and that's unlikely. Easier for a studio to decide on its own.

tl;dr - UV is not flourishing, KeyChest could be the future and there's an easy-to-imagine path to get there.
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:07 PM   #79
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Mostly speculation ^^^ and we haven't seen new numbers for years. NONE of us know why they are not joining UV. My whole point is that, that would be the simplest path to unification. If Disney had just joined UV and it was WB who went on their own would have Apple joined WB? with an Apple exclusive? and others follow? Or would have Apple joined nobody instead.
I have said several times, at the end of the day a single universal system should be implemented if we are headed to mostly digital future. Who knows, maybe there is a poison pill within UV keeping some from joining, we really don't know. I just think something put together by the many would be better than that put together by one...do we really want Disney to call all the shots? or Apple? If Apple was in charge there would not be any digital unless you buy it from them and watch on their products....not exactly a democratic process.
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by huskerbear View Post
Mostly speculation ^^^ and we haven't seen new numbers for years. NONE of us know why they are not joining UV. My whole point is that, that would be the simplest path to unification. If Disney had just joined UV and it was WB who went on their own would have Apple joined WB? with an Apple exclusive? and others follow? Or would have Apple joined nobody instead.
I have said several times, at the end of the day a single universal system should be implemented if we are headed to mostly digital future. Who knows, maybe there is a poison pill within UV keeping some from joining, we really don't know. I just think something put together by the many would be better than that put together by one...do we really want Disney to call all the shots? or Apple? If Apple was in charge there would not be any digital unless you buy it from them and watch on their products....not exactly a democratic process.
Quote:
do we really want Disney to call all the shots?
Actually, the way Keychest has been successful, one company in charge, advised by its partners, may not be a bad thing.

Quote:
or Apple? If Apple was in charge there would not be any digital unless you buy it from them and watch on their products....not exactly a democratic process.
Not sure where this is coming from. No one is suggesting Apple be in charge. Keychest is Disney and not Apple and it includes most of the major providers.
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