Sound and Bar

[starmike]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Nope, you still don't quite seem to get it

With the 2018 disc set to PCM, and DD5.1 track, the user gets no LFE and the dynamically downmixed audio, because the player cannot decode and send a 6-channel PCM signal over optical/coax - HDMI would be required for that which this soundbar does not have.

This isn't true. You just said that some soundbars CAN give you LFE. So which is it, and why do you keep backpedaling?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by starmike

This isn't true. You just said that some soundbars CAN give you LFE. So which is it, and why do you keep backpedaling?

Read the above posts, we are referring to this particular soundbar (+ ones like it that can't decode both DD+DTS and can't receive 6ch PCM) and how one would need to use it with Blu-ray.

I didn't spend all day looking for this soundbar btw, it was literally the first one I clicked on and amazon's primary recommendation, a top 10 seller. So not exactly uncommon.

[starmike]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Read the above posts, we are referring to this particular soundbar (+ ones like it that can't decode both DD/DTS and can't receive 6ch PCM) and how one would need to use it with Blu-ray.

No, no, no. This is about soundbars IN GENERAL which goes back to the point you were talking about this afternoon - that WB removed the 5.1/70mm track because Zoundbarz.

And then you said that zoundbarzzzz don't give you LFE.

Then I proved that wrong.

Then you agreed.

So who gives a rat's ass about one specific zoombarzz? The point was about the removal about the 5.1/70mm track. You're distracting everyone from the point that you don't know what you're talking about.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by starmike

No, no, no. This is about soundbars IN GENERAL which goes back to the point you were talking about this afternoon - that WB removed the 5.1/70mm track because Zoundbarz.

And then you said that zoundbarzzzz don't give you LFE.

Then I proved that wrong.

Then you agreed.

So who gives a rat's ass about one specific zoombarzz? The point was about the removal about the 5.1/70mm track. You're distracting everyone from the point that you don't know what you're talking about.

Soundbars/HTIB is what most people use (data proves this). The rest should be pretty obvious why it would be valid to have a solid option for that crowd. Again, I did my best to explain to all. This is not a new issue, it has existed since the dawn of Dolby Digital/DTS 5.1 on home media. I know y'all are learning about it today but its been a problem for 20+ years. Now you know why many discs on DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K Blu-ray have those seemingly redundant 2.0 tracks on them.

[starmike]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Soundbars/HTIB is what most people use. The rest should be pretty obvious why it would be valid to have a solid option for that crowd.

Oh dear God. No, it's not obvious because we just agreed that some zlongbarz can decode 5.1 with an LFE, so there's no need for a 2.0 mix.

You're clinging to this just to be right when others gave a more practical and believable answer - WB (or the people they farmed the disc to) screwed up.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by starmike

Oh dear God. No, it's not obvious because we just agreed that some zlongbarz can decode 5.1 with an LFE, so there's no need for a 2.0 mix.

You're clinging to this just to be right when others gave a more practical and believable answer - WB (or the people they farmed the disc to) screwed up.

Some can, not all can. So the ones that can't, some of which are the top sellers because they are the cheaper ones, its cool those users just get no bass?

Again, 20+ yr old issue. Solution has always been if you want to cater to all, include a pro 2.0 downmix alongside the 5.1. Many studios still do that to this day.

I know you really want this DD5.1 mix, but thems the facts.

If you really really don't believe me, because you think this is something I made up today and I am so wrong, here is a thread from 2002 on AVSFORUM discussing this exact issue, and how using a 2.0 track remedies it:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/if-...s-well.176626/

reply #2

It's like you say, the only reason they put DD2.0 tracks on DVDs that already have DD5.1 and DTS is that DD2.0 sounds better than a downmix if you can only playback stereo. Essentially a lot of the .1 LFE is lost in the downmix.

reply #5

There is another angle as well.


If the DVD does not have a 2.0 track as well as 5.1, then the 5.1 is compromised from its full potential, to sound acceptable when down mixed to 2.0 .


So in order to have an Uncompromised 5.1 track, we have two choices:


1) Produce an Uncompromised 5.1 track and include a 2.0 track (The ideal way to go)


2) Produce an Uncompromised 5.1 track by itself without including a 2.0 track (which will lead to poor sound when down mixed to 2.0)



If you see a DVD that has only a 5.1 track on it without the 2.0, then you can be sure that that 5.1 track has been compromised, and is not the best it could be.

reply #20

Like I mentioned before, the StarWars DVD is a good example. The 5.1 mix was NOT "downmix" enhanced, so when you play it on a stereo/surround setup, you loose nearly all the base, and much of the stearing. The 2.0 mix sounds 100 times better.

Again, common knowledge.

[quadruple D]

Me after reading this thread…

[Dr. T]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Nope, you still don't quite seem to get it

I get it just fine. You don't seem to understand things.

Originally Posted by Ruined

With the 2018 disc set to PCM, and DD5.1 track, the user gets no LFE and the dynamically downmixed audio, because the player cannot decode and send a 6-channel PCM signal over optical/coax - HDMI would be required for that which this soundbar does not have. Optical/coax only support 2ch PCM, and the DD downmix routine programmed into player for 2ch output will toss the LFE and make the -3db channel adjustments. It's the default behavior and modern players dont give you any option to modify this.

The LFE is an optional enhancement channel. Don't believe me? Read Dolby's own documentation.

And yes, you want to bring down the center channel 3dB. This is standard when summing audio. The surrounds, too.

Originally Posted by Ruined

With the 2023 disc set to PCM, the user *does* get LFE because the LFE is mixed into the main channels of the DTS 2.0 track by the sound engineer, and that track is decoded by the player and sent via PCM over optical/coax. And that is not a problem, because optical/coax can handle 2ch PCM.

Per Dolby: "Its purpose is to supplement the overall bass content of the program or to ease the burden on the other channels." Now you're suggesting that this enhancement channel designed to "ease the burden" for five channels is going to be mixed into only two channels along with the rest of the audio? I don't think so. Want to hear this in the real world? Compare the 2.0 Superman mix with the 5.1 mix when the Krypton dome opens. The 5.1 has more low end.

Originally Posted by Ruined

So yes, even if the soundbar hypothetically did support DD and did not support DTS, since they have to use in PCM 2.0 mode anyway w/ Blu-ray they would be far better off with a DTS-MA 2.0 track (or DD2.0 track) because at the minimum they would actually get bass with the DTS 2.0 track unlike the DD5.1 track.

It doesn't seem like you realize that the other five channels are full-range and not lacking in bass. The LFE is a supplement and not all of the bass, that's why it's easily ignored.

[KC-Technerd]

Pages and pages of back and forth over something I consider completely moot. LFE originated with Dolby 6-track for 70mm. "Star Wars" was the first movie to use it. Magnetic tracks 2 & 4 from the Todd-AO 70mm format were used for the addition of low frequency effects to be played over the already installed Left Center and Right Center speakers that were often not being utilized in Todd-AO sound mixes of the period. Soon theaters started installing dedicated subwoofers to handle the LFE instead of the full range LC and RC speakers. LFE, also known as baby boom (probably in recognition of Sensurround's low frequency effects that might be considered grown-up boom), was an added effect specifically intended for theaters equipped for 70mm, It wasn't a separation of the bass from the full range channels, it was in addition to the full range channels. The Dolby Stereo 35mm SVA matrix didn't have LFE. When sending X.1 audio to a sound system (including soundbars with small separate subwoofers) that doesn't necessarily handle loud thunderous bass cleanly, the LFE is probably best discarded anyway. You still have full range from the the other channels which can be bass managed to any subwoofer.

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

I get it just fine. You don't seem to understand things.



The LFE is an optional enhancement channel. Don't believe me? Read Dolby's own documentation.

And yes, you want to bring down the center channel 3dB. This is standard when summing audio. The surrounds, too.



Per Dolby: "Its purpose is to supplement the overall bass content of the program or to ease the burden on the other channels." Now you're suggesting that this enhancement channel designed to "ease the burden" for five channels is going to be mixed into only two channels along with the rest of the audio? I don't think so. Want to hear this in the real world? Compare the 2.0 Superman mix with the 5.1 mix when the Krypton dome opens. The 5.1 has more low end.



It doesn't seem like you realize that the other five channels are full-range and not lacking in bass. The LFE is a supplement and not all of the bass, that's why it's easily ignored.

Spot on! This is why many of the posts over the past several pages just don't matter.

[Mick B]

Hi,

I have never had a sound bar and always had either a 5.1 or a 7.1 setup and for the past few years a Atmos Amp which lets me have a 5.1.2 setup too, but I can see why some people may choose or be forced to have a sound bar.

Given that not everyone has the room for lots of speakers then a sound bar is the simple choice to still get a good sound...

then shouldn't WB be doing something like this for their STM customers...

1) Atmos remix for those that have a Atmos amp that want that new track.
2) The best possible original 5.1 mix (in this case the 70mm track and only via lossless and not lossy).
3) A 2.0 mix for sound bar users.

That way everyone can choose which track they want.

If a company wants to make money then it needs to make sure it can sell to as many customers as possible without peeing them off.
I know I have left out the remix for the Special Edition from the aboce options, but I would bet that mix gets released when they put out the Special Edition version of the film in 4K at some point.

My argument here, both with Blu-ray and UHD is that still in 2023, we are not being given the best possible audio/visual representations of certain films when there really should be no reason not to.

[dallywhitty]

Superman: The Movie 4K UHD (1978) At The Movies Edition Redux

I screamed.

[Bourne1886]

Originally Posted by mulscul

So when are we getting back to talking about how Superman 4 is better than Superman 3?

Lol I nearly spat my Tea out!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

I get it just fine. You don't seem to understand things.



The LFE is an optional enhancement channel. Don't believe me? Read Dolby's own documentation.

Per Dolby: "Its purpose is to supplement the overall bass content of the program or to ease the burden on the other channels." Now you're suggesting that this enhancement channel designed to "ease the burden" for five channels is going to be mixed into only two channels along with the rest of the audio? I don't think so. Want to hear this in the real world? Compare the 2.0 Superman mix with the 5.1 mix when the Krypton dome opens. The 5.1 has more low end.

It doesn't seem like you realize that the other five channels are full-range and not lacking in bass. The LFE is a supplement and not all of the bass, that's why it's easily ignored.

Oh sure, LFE is an optional enhancement channel. So are you going to sell your subwoofer then since its optional? lol.

[Matt89]

7 pages have been added to this thread in like 24 hrs lol.

[BrandonJF]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Soundbars/HTIB is what most people use (data proves this).

Can you link to that data and see if it works out better than your last links?

TV Speakers are what most people use.

[david_blu]

Originally Posted by Matt89

7 pages have been added to this thread in like 24 hrs lol.

Faster than a speeding bullet!

Able to annoy thousands of people in a single bound.

More powerful than a sedative.

Look up on the thread its soundman!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by BrandonJF

Can you link to that data and see if it works out better than your last links?

TV Speakers are what most people use.

We aren't talking about TV speakers, but any device without 6ch input or decoding benefits from a standalone 2.0 mix.

My links have been just fine, people are just trying to find a new angle with every post as no one wants to be proven wrong on the internet.

The problem is, people without realizing it are arguing about a decades-old known issue that is not solvable in the way they desire. Any amount of googling to get up to speed on that today is not going to solve the core problem. This is evident as the practice of putting a 2.0 alongside a 5.1 still happens today, even in the 4K format.

You can't just throw away the LFE channel and expect to have the same amount of bass. Yes, Dolby recommends this as the default behavior and it does make the most sense from a dynamic perspective because you need human intervention to determine how much LFE would be too much LFE. Dolby's recommendations (per Roger Dressler) are based on the idea that a 2.0 mix will be played back on small limited range speakers, which while the safer bet is often not the case due to subwoofers in 2.1 system (or full range 2.0 speakers). You also can't fully double up the bass from the LFE in the main channels, because then people who use the LFE will have way too much bass.

So, the downmix issue is solvable in three mixing options as detailed in that AVSFORUM thread from 2002:

1. Gimp the LFE channel of the 5.1 mix by taking some of the LFE out of the LFE channel and mixing it into the main channels. This helps for a dynamic 2.0 downmix as they will get at least a small amount (not most) of the bass, but damages the quality of low frequency effects channel for a 5.1 channel system. This option is not the best, but not the worst. This is generally what Dolby recommends because it's the middle ground solution and allows for a DD5.1 track to stand on its own without anyone having a complete garbage experience if they pick the wrong soundtrack, but is still inferior to option #2 for both knowledgeable 5.1 and 2.0 users.

2. Leave the LFE intact on the 5.1 mix, and include a separate 2.0 mix that has parts of the LFE mixed into the main channels. Then people with 2.1 or large full range 2.0 speakers can use the 2.0 mix for LFE. This option is the best as both 5.1 and 2.0/2.1 users get the most intact respective soundtracks. This is what Shout Factory and Kino do for their 4K discs.

3. Leave the LFE intact on the 5.1 mix, and 2.0/2.1 users can live with no LFE effects. This is probably the worst option of the three, because one group gets a poor experience.

[DR Herbert West]

Can you catch mono from a soundbar?

[LexInHD]

I have two older Sony 2.1 soundbars - from the heyday of Blu-Ray - that take 5.1 audio and use the LFE channel. One does LPCM and Dolby/DTS and the other is a newer model that does LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD. Today's 2.1 soundbars - which are pretty much all the low-cost soundbar models - tend to only handle 2.0 audio signals in their DSP, with no LFE channel processing, while 5.1 audio processing has been kicked up to the 3.1 soundbar units that occupy the space in the market that my Sony units once did. Those less expensive 2.1 units which only do 2.0 and have a sub simply take the bass from the audio and throw it at the sub, making it go boom-boom.