Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[squidzilla]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

No, and I bet neither can you if you aren't told what you are listening to. What does perceptual compression sound like in your opinion?
Well, fortunately that is balanced out by all those people on the disc side who consider themselves "audiophiles" on all levels.

Seriously? I have passed those blind tests for a decade now. I made it clear to you that I could tell once it went past dialogue only. Since I buy the physical disc, I often get a free DVD with it as well. I do blind tests with my friends that are like you and really do not care or are naïve to think there is no difference. After doing a demo with a reference scene on both disc and blu ray, everyone says lossless is easy to tell since it sounds "cleaner" (their words not mine.) These are demo's on movie scenes that are heavy on the channels, heavy on LFE ( you know what means right?), and heavy on sound effects. All have said they can tell difference. Maybe you have listened to so much compressed crap for so long that you can no longer tell the difference. Or maybe you just have horrible ears. If you lived in my neighborhood we would be betting for sure.

[Vilya]

Unless you are using a projector, there is no need for streaming apps to be included with the Oppo disc player. Virtually all 4K TVs are smart TVs with all of the major apps included. And if you own a game console, those same apps appear there again. How many devices in your home theater need to have apps?

If you do use a projector, the Oppo allows for the connection of any streaming device of your choosing for greater flexibility. Historically, none of the disc players I have owned supported apps with updates for very long. Many streaming fans prefer a dedicated streaming device for the widest range of apps and for the updates they receive.

If Oppo had included apps, it would have been an added expense and something else for them to provide support for. Oppo built a dedicated universal disc player instead and concentrated on supporting it.

As for why the production of Oppo 4K disc players is ending, Oppo Digital, a division of Oppo, and owned by BBK Electronics has made it clear that the Oppo Digital division was not profitable or not profitable enough. Oppo chose to focus on its core smartphone business.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by squidzilla

Seriously? I have passed those blind tests for a decade now. I made it clear to you that I could tell once it went past dialogue only. Since I buy the physical disc, I often get a free DVD with it as well. I do blind tests with my friends that are like you and really do not care or are naïve to think there is no difference. After doing a demo with a reference scene on both disc and blu ray, everyone says lossless is easy to tell since it sounds "cleaner" (their words not mine. These are demo's on movie scenes that are heavy on the channels, heavy on LFE ( you know what means right?), and heavy on sound effects. All have said they can tell difference. Maybe you have listened to so much compressed crap for so long that you can no longer tell the difference. Or maybe you just have horrible ears.

You are wasting your breath with the Vizio (other well priced TV makes are available) and sound bar crowd mate. They don’t want to see or hear any difference.

[squidzilla]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You are wasting your breath with the Vizio (other well priced TV makes are available) and sound bar crowd mate. They don’t want to see or hear any difference.

All I hear from them is oink oink oink when discussing the merits of true lossless audio. Pearls before swine....

[squidzilla]

I find it bizarre that a digital only person will say they get all of the benefits of going digital over physical and then proceed to justify this falsehood by then saying that some of the benefits we get from choosing physical ( true lossless audio) are not really benefits since they only exist in our mind as a form of perception. Dolby and DTS sound engineers would eat you guys alive with that nonsense. Here is my equally ridiculous perspective from a physical buyer of content: It is just as easy for me to store my 1100 movies as it is for you to store your 1100 digital only movies.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by squidzilla

I find it bizarre that a digital only person will say they get all of the benefits of going physical and then proceed to justify this falsehood by then saying that some of the benefits we get from choosing physical ( true lossless audio) are not really benefits since they only exist in our mind as a form of perception. Dolby and DTS sound engineers would eat you guys alive with that nonsense. Here is my equally ridiculous perspective from a physical buyer of content: It is just as easy for me to store my 1100 movies as it is for you to store your 1100 digital only movies.

Agreed. It’s a nonsense.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by squidzilla

All I hear from them is oink oink oink when discussing the merits of true lossless audio. Pearls before swine....

A friend of mine is a trained music therapist and can competently play about a dozen instruments and she can readily tell the difference. I would love to have her hearing acuity, not to mention her musician talents.

It is easy for people to get used to lower quality, the "good enough" crowd, and they scoff at those who pursue the best. "It doesn't look any better" they exclaim. "It all sounds the same." they swear.

If you try to point out the quality advantages, you become a "snob", an "elitist", and, heaven forbid, an audio/ videophile. Why is wanting the best, acquiring the best, and enjoying the best somehow a bad thing? It sounds more like envy and that is their problem, not mine.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Sounds like the rationalizing of a soundbar owner who can't, or won't, invest in a real home theater.

Well, that's not me.

Netflix has a lossy, not lossless, audio and with a lower bitrate version of Atmos. Atmos Lite is what they offer: not the real thing.

Do you even know what Atmos does? Your claim that streaming services don't provide Atmos is simply wrong. Not sure what you are trying to achieve here.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by squidzilla

Seriously? I have passed those blind tests for a decade now. I made it clear to you that I could tell once it went past dialogue only.

Well, then you are doing better than the professionals who develop the standards and best practices in this field. Congratulations.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Well, that's not me.
Do you even know what Atmos does? Your claim that streaming services don't provide Atmos is simply wrong. Not sure what you are trying to achieve here.

I read the Dolby Article I linked to, but I was waiting for you to come back online and explain it to me.

Streaming gives you lossy, lower bitrate Atmos Lite. Disc gives you lossless Dolby Atmos True HD with a higher bitrate.

If you want to equate the lesser version with the real deal, allow me to introduce you to someone else who enjoys false equivalencies.

You can't hear a difference, so therefore no one else can. I can't hear what my cat can hear, therefore my cat can't, either. Fascinating logic. You two will get along great.

[cynatnite]

Originally Posted by Vilya

A friend of mine is a trained music therapist and can competently play about a dozen instruments and she can readily tell the difference. I would love to have her hearing acuity, not to mention her musician talents.

It is easy for people to get used to lower quality, the "good enough" crowd, and they scoff at those who pursue the best. "It doesn't look any better" they exclaim. "It all sounds the same." they swear.

If you try to point out the quality advantages, you become a "snob", an "elitist", and, heaven forbid, an audio/ videophile. Why is wanting the best, acquiring the best, and enjoying the best somehow a bad thing? It sounds more like envy and that is their problem, not mine.

Audio quality is something that is pretty much a mystery to me. I'm no audiophile by any stretch of the imagination and I can't even honestly say I'm a good judge of it. I fall into the "I think it sounds okay" category. LOL

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by cynatnite

Audio quality is something that is pretty much a mystery to me. I'm no audiophile by any stretch of the imagination and I can't even honestly say I'm a good judge of it. I fall into the "I think it sounds okay" category. LOL

If you're happy, then you're happy. Nothing to argue with there.

At least you're not telling me I can't hear what I can hear and that I can't see what I can see. Too many people define us all by their own limitations.

I did not build a home theater to enjoy listening to AM radio with it. If others want to do so, that's their choice. I built it because I want the best video and audio that my wallet allows. I would not have spent the money if I could not tell a difference.

I think I will go watch Star Wars The Last Jedi on 4K UHD w/ Dolby Vision now, but maybe I should just listen to it with my TVs speakers? Who needs all them channels? I can just stare at the beautiful image on the screen and immerse myself in the "good enuff" 40 watt stereo sound.

[stonesfan129]

Can someone find an AES paper where the difference could be heard between lossless and 640kbps AC3 5.1? I am not one of those people who hears a difference and I have never met anyone who could. My gripe with streaming is the picture quality. When compared to the same resolution on a disc, it is not even close.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Can someone find an AES paper where the difference could be heard between lossless and 640kbps AC3 5.1? I am not one of those people who hears a difference and I have never met anyone who could. My gripe with streaming is the picture quality. When compared to the same resolution on a disc, it is not even close.

I'm not familiar with mulitchannel tests published by the AES, but I participated in subjective listening tests that the EBU carried out about 10 years ago. I'll have to dig up the report for details, but if I remember correctly, E-AC3@448kbps and DTS@1500kbps achieved the same MUSHRA score as the original. At 384kbps, the Dolby codecs still achieved a score around 80 (which is considered "excellent"). Those tests were done with mainly musical samples (where artifacts are far easier to detect than with random movie sound effects). This resulted in recommendations that were adopted by many broadcasters.

[NonSequiturL]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

that's always been my intention if I see that the writings on the wall for blu ray. I'll buy 3 or so players and keep them in the box for when needed...

Won't the lubrication in the moving parts dry up over time?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

I really wonder what everyone thinks in terms of the longevity of blu-ray?

My main concern is that the TV releases are becoming more and more uncommon. I'm not sure how much of the market 4kUHD takes, and streaming seems to be getting bigger and bigger.

I would say TV shows fit the format of streaming better than physical media. A lot of time when you watch TV shows you want to just quickly put something on without having to find a disc and queue up an episode. Or, you might want to binge watch ; in either of these cases streaming makes more sense.

Only time I want to buy a TV show on Blu is for a remarkable series and not until the series is complete, I. E. The sopranos complete, friends complete, etc.

Movies are different, they last 2 hours and generally there is more of a selection process involved. This works better with physical media.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Do you even know what Atmos does? Your claim that streaming services don't provide Atmos is simply wrong. Not sure what you are trying to achieve here.

Originally Posted by Vilya

I read the Dolby Article I linked to, but I was waiting for you to come back online and explain it to me.

Streaming gives you lossy, lower bitrate Atmos Lite. Disc gives you lossless Dolby Atmos True HD with a higher bitrate.

If you want to equate the lesser version with the real deal, allow me to introduce you to someone else who enjoys false equivalencies.

You can't hear a difference, so therefore no one else can. I can't hear what my cat can hear, therefore my cat can't, either. Fascinating logic. You two will get along great.

Like I have said before, it's all Digital. Video and Sound are all part of the Codec, and dependent on Bitrate and Bandwidth. You get better Sound and Video from Disc because the Bitrate is consistent and higher than most Internet access and Provider Bitrates. If the Sound is written and pulled from the Codec, then doesn't it make sense if the Bitrate is the same that you would pull the same Sound. I know you say it's Theoretical, but that argument is long past.....Now it's all about Bitrate and Bandwidth. If you match Disc you have the same Quality, the only Lite is less Bitrate or Bandwidth! Then of course you have to have the right Sound System to pull this information.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by squidzilla

Seriously? I have passed those blind tests for a decade now. I made it clear to you that I could tell once it went past dialogue only. Since I buy the physical disc, I often get a free DVD with it as well. I do blind tests with my friends that are like you and really do not care or are naïve to think there is no difference. After doing a demo with a reference scene on both disc and blu ray, everyone says lossless is easy to tell since it sounds "cleaner" (their words not mine.) These are demo's on movie scenes that are heavy on the channels, heavy on LFE ( you know what means right?), and heavy on sound effects. All have said they can tell difference. Maybe you have listened to so much compressed crap for so long that you can no longer tell the difference. Or maybe you just have horrible ears. If you lived in my neighborhood we would be betting for sure.

I'm sure you have plenty of them

[Vilya]

Incidentally, I watched my 4K UHD Dolby Vision copy of Star Wars The Last Jedi with my Oppo 203 and I had zero playback issues. I paused, reversed, resumed, and played with the sub titles, too. Everything worked without a hitch.

I did have to boost my volume +7 db over my usual setting; the audio was too quiet. Even after raising the volume, it still felt like something was not quite right. It just did not have the overall presence that I expected.

The pq was fine, excellent detail and great colors. Outer space was black enough for me. When my 3D copy arrives from the U.K. in about 9 days, I will watch that version. I suspect I will enjoy the 3D edition more as 3D is just so much fun!

[pmil]

Originally Posted by Bodyslide

Since DVD's are still around, my guess is Blu ray will be here atleast for the next decade.

Unfortunately I don't think the same will play out with Blu-Ray. The studios are more interested in antiquated DVDs and UHD Blu-Ray.

It's a very sad situation. Although I own Blu-Rays of nearly all of my favorite movies, mostly old ones, I'm not holding out much hope for seeing all my favorite old American TV shows on Blu-Ray. Very sad.