A Guide to Bipolar, Dipolar, & Direct-Radiating Monopole Surround Speakers (PART I)

[Hygienist]

I'm trying to put together a budget 7.1 HT system for a 10.5' x 13.5' room, based on the Jamo C400 series. The two seater sofa is in the middle of the room, but it occupies much of the 10.5' width since it has a center console, meaning that I'll be somewhat, but not too close, to the sides, and that a large sweet spot will probably be best. 5.1 isn't possible due to obstructions preventing me from placing a side surround anywhere other than directly to the sides of the sofa.

For the 4 surrounds, I'm wondering whether to go with the
C401 Bookshelves
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

C400SUR dipoles
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

(The lack of tweeters on the C400SUR dipoles concerns me; something to disqualify them over?)

They're the same price, so getting the cheaper option is out. This will be only for movies and games; no music. I've read a ton on people who prefer dipoles for movies, including an "Ask Audyssey" thing where Chris K. recommended dipoles for straight movie watching. I'll also be calibrating it with Audyssey 2EQ or Multeq, if that makes a difference.

So far I'm leaning towards dipoles, but anyone with experience with dipoles is welcome to chime in with their experience.

I've also got one major concern:
How 'bad' are dipoles at precise positional audio? Will a sound coming from my 7 'oclock sound like it's one massive blobby sound behind me, or will it just be less general, as in sounding like it ranges from 6-8 'oclock?

[Big Daddy]

The lack of tweeters should not concern you. Those drivers are full-range drivers. I realize that at such a low price, those full-range drivers are probably not the highest quality. However, the higher-end speakers with full-range drivers can outplay multi-driver speakers for musical applications. I built a couple of DIY speakers with full-range drivers. Their sound quality is excellent.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/2840674-post116.html

If your budget is tight, those Jamo speakers are ok and can do the job for surround applications. Better quality bipole/dipole surround speakers can cost you $500 or more.

Originally Posted by Hygienist

I'm trying to put together a budget 7.1 HT system for a 10.5' x 13.5' room, based on the Jamo C400 series. The two seater sofa is in the middle of the room, but it occupies much of the 10.5' width since it has a center console, meaning that I'll be somewhat, but not too close, to the sides, and that a large sweet spot will probably be best. 5.1 isn't possible due to obstructions preventing me from placing a side surround anywhere other than directly to the sides of the sofa.

For the 4 surrounds, I'm wondering whether to go with the
C401 Bookshelves
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

C400SUR dipoles
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

(The lack of tweeters on the C400SUR dipoles concerns me; something to disqualify them over?)

They're the same price, so getting the cheaper option is out. This will be only for movies and games; no music. I've read a ton on people who prefer dipoles for movies, including an "Ask Audyssey" thing where Chris K. recommended dipoles for straight movie watching. I'll also be calibrating it with Audyssey 2EQ or Multeq, if that makes a difference.

So far I'm leaning towards dipoles, but anyone with experience with dipoles is welcome to chime in with their experience.

I've also got one major concern:
How 'bad' are dipoles at precise positional audio? Will a sound coming from my 7 'oclock sound like it's one massive blobby sound behind me, or will it just be less general, as in sounding like it ranges from 6-8 'oclock?

[Hygienist]

Thanks for that.

I'm locked in for dipoles on side surrounds, but what about rear surrounds? Would you recommend monopole or dipole? At the moment I'm leaning toward monopole, since it might give me a bit of that positional accuracy back that I lost with the dipoles. I'm about 6' from the rear wall, by the way. Plus I could probably hang a painting in between the monopoles more easily than dipoles in the rear, to hide any unsightly cables

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Hygienist

Thanks for that.

I'm locked in for dipoles on side surrounds, but what about rear surrounds? Would you recommend monopole or dipole? At the moment I'm leaning toward monopole, since it might give me a bit of that positional accuracy back that I lost with the dipoles. I'm about 6' from the rear wall, by the way. Plus I could probably hang a painting in between the monopoles more easily than dipoles in the rear, to hide any unsightly cables

If your main interest is multi-channel music, monopole surround speakers are a very good option.

If your main interest is movies and not multi-channel music, use bipoles for the rear surrounds. Bipoles give you flexibility in placement and are good for both music and movies. I generally prefer bipoles.

If you decide to go with dipole surround speakers for the rear, you have to follow the direction and the diagram in post #1. Otherwise, you will experience major phase cancellation.

[Hygienist]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

If your main interest is multi-channel music, monopole surround speakers are a very good option.

If your main interest is movies and not multi-channel music, use bipoles for the rear surrounds. Bipoles give you flexibility in placement and are good for both music and movies. I generally prefer bipoles.

If you decide to go with dipole surround speakers for the rear, you have to follow the direction and the diagram in post #1. Otherwise, you will experience major phase cancellation.

Thanks for the reply again

I don't have a choice of bipoles since the Jamo line I'm looking at has only monopole and dipole options, and I'd like to stay within that line both for financial and aesthetic reasons.

Given that, my main interest isn't multichannel music, but gaming is one of them. I'd say 65% movies, 35% games. I'm not the hyper-competitive type who must have positional accuracy to within 1 degree, but I'd like it to be reasonably accurate. Would you say I oughta go monopole knowing that?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Hygienist

Thanks for the reply again

I don't have a choice of bipoles since the Jamo line I'm looking at has only monopole and dipole options, and I'd like to stay within that line both for financial and aesthetic reasons.

Given that, my main interest isn't multichannel music, but gaming is one of them. I'd say 65% movies, 35% games. I'm not the hyper-competitive type who must have positional accuracy to within 1 degree, but I'd like it to be reasonably accurate. Would you say I oughta go monopole knowing that?

Use monopoles if you like. Rear surround speakers are not that important.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Use monopoles if you like. Rear surround speakers are not that important.

I really didn't take this thought into mind when I bought my surrounds. I sometimes feel I wasted money on them. Since I have the Monitor Audio's RXFX models, I notice I don't use any of the Onkyo listening modes to change from 5.1 to 7.1.....

As I am typing this, a thought just came to mind.

Reading Monitor Audio recommendation if four RXFX surrounds are used, I should place all of them in di-pole. That recommendation is talking about a 7.1, but if I am using 5.1 most of the time now.

I guess my question is, am I losing anything with di-pole's on the side and nothing going on with the rears?

****** EDIT *****
Never mind my question, I just re-viewed the first page of this thread and see that it's all good.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I really didn't take this thought into mind when I bought my surrounds. I sometimes feel I wasted money on them. Since I have the Monitor Audio's RXFX models, I notice I don't use any of the Onkyo listening modes to change from 5.1 to 7.1.....

As I am typing this, a thought just came to mind.

Reading Monitor Audio recommendation if four RXFX surrounds are used, I should place all of them in di-pole. That recommendation is talking about a 7.1, but if I am using 5.1 most of the time now.

I guess my question is, am I losing anything with di-pole's on the side and nothing going on with the rears?

****** EDIT *****
Never mind my question, I just re-viewed the first page of this thread and see that it's all good.

Use Dolby Pro Logic IIx for Cinema mode. It does a pretty good job of matrixing the side surrounds into the rear surrounds. PLIIx does not affect your front sound stage. This way, you won't feel you have wasted your money for the rear surround speakers.

[Tufelhundin]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

According to Chris Kyriakakis of Audyssey, the wide/height speakers for Audyssey DSX should be direct (not dipole or bipole) and timbre matched with the three front speakers.

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/98040-speakers-for-dsx




For additional information, read post #144 of https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...io-codecs.html.

Thanks BD...ughhhh...I guess I dont have anything to rush into then, for I dont plan to make any major purchase until I can get the Sigs....and by then they probably wont even have the Sig Series...

[DavePS3]

In my view, dipoles and bipoles were produced originally for Dolby Surround which was low volume mono in the rear. When DTS and DD branched out into 5.1, the sounds were meant to be directional. Dipoles and bipoles spread the sound out. That was needed for the older technology but I feel they both difuse the directionality and defeat the purpose of having distinct sounds from either speaker.

[sputter]

I personally like dipoles over direct. The defused blends rather nicely than hitting me in the back of the head. That's totally a personal choice however.
It may lose a bit of the low end but I like it.

My dipoles blend really well on a 360 camera pan in films. (5.1 setup)
In a 7.1 i'd seriously consider adding 2 direct firing, atleast that's what i'm considering when I get around to adding the extra speakers.

It's difused but you still have the right/left audio just more subtle.

It's worth a listen if you haven't heard a nice dipole setup.

Originally Posted by DavePS3

In my view, dipoles and bipoles were produced originally for Dolby Surround which was low volume mono in the rear. When DTS and DD branched out into 5.1, the sounds were meant to be directional. Dipoles and bipoles spread the sound out. That was needed for the older technology but I feel they both difuse the directionality and defeat the purpose of having distinct sounds from either speaker.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by DavePS3

In my view, dipoles and bipoles were produced originally for Dolby Surround which was low volume mono in the rear. When DTS and DD branched out into 5.1, the sounds were meant to be directional. Dipoles and bipoles spread the sound out. That was needed for the older technology but I feel they both difuse the directionality and defeat the purpose of having distinct sounds from either speaker.

For multi-channel music, I agree that direct monopole speakers may be a better option. However, I completely disagree with you for multi-channel movies. Most surround information in multi-channel movies is of ambient nature that are not meant to be directional. You don't want to hear somebody crashing behind your head or shooting you from behind you. The advantages and disadvantages of different types of surround speakers are discussed in post #1 of https://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/6...-speakers.html.

Incidentally, this is the wrong forum for discussing advantages and disadvantages of surround speakers. This thread is for bipole/dipole manufactures. The thread I mentioned above is for such discussions. I will move the last few posts to that thread.

[starstx]

Big Daddy,

I recently got into my first HT setup and you can imagine I have completely racked my brain over what speakers to get and placement etc. As I am sure a lot of people have ... the setup of the room is never ideal so I am just trying to get the best setup I can realizing it is impossible to make perfect.

So far ... I only plan to have a nice 5.1 setup and not adding anymore in the near future. Attached is a diagram of my setup. The SSS-01 are the surrounds. Ignore the placement ... since these are dipoles they would be going on the side walls ... one in the back right corner on the sidewall above the sub and the other in the back left corner on the sidewall in that small area before the 6 ft. opening leading to the dining and kitchen area.

As you can see my subwoofer is a corner placement in the back/right of the room and really was my only option. So far I like everything it sounds great (2.1 currently) but I just purchased the center channel and 2 Di-pole surrounds and will be setting everything up and wiring this weekend. I need some help though:

My current setup the couch is flush against the back wall. Many people have said this is not good and could effect my sub and surround. I have some space to move forward. How far would you recommend moving the couch forward from the back wall if I have a little space to work with?

Next, how far from the main listening position are the di-pole surrounds supposed to be placed? I didn't think about this but I have about 8-10 ft. on each side before you get to the side wall. They most likely will not be perfectly equidistant either but it would be within 1-2ft. if they were not. Is this going to cause a problem with the dipoles? Finally, if I move the couch forward they will not be directly to the sides because of the open space on the left side. Am I going to be screwed if they are not directly to the sides but more to the sides and back a bit? They will be on the side wall really close to the back wall because of the open space leading to my dining room on the left side. There are no other options. Are dipoles supposed to be 2-3ft. above the ear in listening position like other surrounds or not? Can they not go on the back wall and be closer in or is that a bad idea?

Finally, based on my setup should I have not bought the dipoles. I am a little concerned after reading this whole forum. Designed for the older Dolby technology etc. I mean ... I have a new receiver so i am going to be playing it in the latest technology and it sounds like my dipoles don't take advantage of that. I use my system for movies, games, and music fairly heavily on all 3. I spent a good chunk of money on these surrounds and if they can't be setup correctly or if I am not taking advantage of the sound I will be disappointed and I am still within the return window. I like the propsect for HT and not being able to pinpoint where the sounds is coming from but I listen to a lot of music too. Are dipoles good for a 5.1 setup like mine and do you think there will be still an overall satisfaction for all listening modes even if it is not as good for music? I know you prefer the bipoles and now I am having a tough time figuring out if i made a bad decision or not.

I know I need to listen to them when I get it setup and make a decision then but I would really aprreciate your feedback.

Thanks

[Big Daddy]

Starstx,

If you put the sofa against the wall, the bass will be too loud and boomy. You will get tired or have a headache after half an hour. Move the sofa forward by about 2 feet or more.

A subwoofer in a corner normally energizes all room modes and sounds the loudest. However, there is a possibility that it may become too boomy. If that occurs, move it at least a foot or more away from the side walls.

The most optimum positions for dipole surround speakers are on the two sides of the listener. You have to sit in their null area to receive maximum benefit.

You can put surround speakers on tall speaker stands or attach them to the wall. They can also be attached to the ceiling to make sure they are approximately the same distant from your main listening area. I have 4 side surround speakers. Three of them are attached to the ceiling.

If one surround speaker is farther away from you, the level will most likely be increased during calibration to compensate. You can also do it manually, but it is best to use an SPL meter.

If your main interest is movies, bipole/dipole surround speakers are the best option. Bipole surround speakers have slightly better bass performance than diole speakers and are more flexible as far as placement is concerned.

Go back to post #1 of this thread. There are detailed explantion on the differences between the different types of surround speakers along with helpful diagrams for optimum placement.

[starstx]

Thanks for the reply ... I am most likely overreacting a bit and should wait until everything is setup and I can listen to it in my particular room setup.

The bass sounds great but it is a little boomy and directional. I guess my two options are to move the couch forward or move the bass out from the wall a bit and experiment.

If the distances do no have to be exact that helps. I read this whole forum including your original post.

I guess my main 2 questions are ... (I understand the perfect setup is exactly 90 degrees for dipoles). But lets say the dipoles are slightly behind the listener 1-3ft. Is the difference going to be massive or still sufficient although it is not in the perfect spot?

Seperate question ... Is there any negative benefits if the dipoles are mounted on the side walls but extremely close to the back wall (6 inches)? or is that ok IYO ... Once again ... not ideal but how much of a difference are we talking about here ...

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by starstx

Thanks for the reply ... I am most likely overreacting a bit and should wait until everything is setup and I can listen to it in my particular room setup.

The bass sounds great but it is a little boomy and directional. I guess my two options are to move the couch forward or move the bass out from the wall a bit and experiment.

If the distances do no have to be exact that helps. I read this whole forum including your original post.

I guess my main 2 questions are ... (I understand the perfect setup is exactly 90 degrees for dipoles). But lets say the dipoles are slightly behind the listener 1-3ft. Is the difference going to be massive or still sufficient although it is not in the perfect spot?

Seperate question ... Is there any negative benefits if the dipoles are mounted on the side walls but extremely close to the back wall (6 inches)? or is that ok IYO ... Once again ... not ideal but how much of a difference are we talking about here ...

Question 1. Is the difference going to be massive?
Answer: Nothing about surround speakers are going to be massive. I worry more about the front and center speakers. After all, only special effects sounds are expected to come out of the surrounds. The dialog and most of the music comes out of the front three speakers.

Question 2. Is there any negative benefits if the dipoles are mounted on the side walls but extremely close to the back wall (6 inches)?
Answer: There will be too much reflection from the back wall that may make the surround effect more cloudy or it may result with phase cancellation with waves coming out of other speakers. If the situation becomes too troublesome, the solution is to angle them inward or put some room treatment foam on the back wall so that there is less reflection.

[starstx]

Big Daddy,

Thanks for the quick responses. I am going to get everything setup and do some experimenting this weekend and give it a test run next week. I take it you mean to angle inward a little bit away from the back walls toward the front of the room if it becomes troublesome?

All my speakers and sub are SVS best known for subs but I am very impressed by their speakers as well. They just came out with these new dipole surrounds so I am going to give it a whirl. Been running on 2.1 so I am really looking forward to see how everything sounds in the 5.1 setup.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by starstx

I take it you mean to angle inward a little bit away from the back walls toward the front of the room if it becomes troublesome?

Yes, you do not want the reflections from the rear wall cancel the the information coming out of the front driver. Angle it in such a way that the reflections from the rear wall go into the room.

[starstx]

BD,

Thanks for your quick responses. I have no idea why I was convinced these were Di-Poles when in fact they are bi-pole speakers which will work much better for my particular setup so no worries there now.

Here is a link to the SVS SSS-02 Bi-Pole surround speakers. Unfortunately, they have not added the link and specs to their web site but on the right hand side you will see a picture and a description. These are relatively new.

http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sbs01.cfm

My setup: All SVS. 2 MBS-01 Bookshelves, 1 MCS-01 Center, 2 SSS-02 Bi-Pole Surrounds, 1 PC12-NSD subwoofer, Onkyo TX-SR707 Receiver, PS3, Samsung 61 inch DLP with LED.

Upgrading from 2.1 to 5.1 and doing the install on Monday. I will try to take some pictures when I get everything setup and let you know what I think. I would like to mention the 2.1 already sounds amazing and SVS has excellent and responsive customer service. Highly recommended.

Going to place the SSS-02's on the back wall. My front speakers are roughly 10 Ft. apart so I take it these bi-poles need to be at least 10 Ft. or more apart on the back wall? Do you know if it matters which surround speaker is to the left or the right in terms of + - terminals? I should most likely ask SVS but figured I would throw it out there ...

BTW ... awesome thread ... I searched all over and this is the first one that really breaks everything down for you and gives you a better perspective. I learned a lot in the last the few days.

[Sousa86]

here is a rough sketch of what my living room looks like, not sure where the best place for surrounds would be or if i should go di/bi or mono...

the boxes with the "S" is my current thoughts on placement for a 5.1 setup.
should i get some monos and just point them at the general listening position?