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View Poll Results: Which Bond had the best debut movie?
Connery in Dr. No 27 28.13%
Moore in Live and Let Die 6 6.25%
Dalton in The Living Daylights 5 5.21%
Brosnan in GoldenEye 16 16.67%
Craig in Casino Royale 48 50.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-02-2022, 10:11 AM   #61
Zechs Merquise Zechs Merquise is offline
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Originally Posted by RCRochester View Post
Eon have full creative control over the Bond series. Dalton was already attached to The Property of a Lady when it went into pre-production in 1990, prior to the lawsuit. There was never any talk at the time of him not playing Bond a third time even in the wake of Licence to Kill's "poor performance".

Once the Bond series resumed, Cubby Broccoli publicly declared that the role was still Dalton's as long as he wanted it, which as I stated earlier he did on the condition he could only do one more film.
I mean, this is literally what two high ranking producers involved with the film have said. EON may have creative control but UA were financing the Bond films and they were not going to finance a film they did not think was going to do well financially, which is what they felt would happen if Dalton continued to star as Bond for GoldenEye

It doesn't really matter that they were going to develop a third Dalton Bond film in '91, plans change. Warner Bros were going to, at one point, develop a direct sequel to Superman Returns. Sony were going to develop Spider-Man 4, with Sam Raimi directing and then Amazing Spider-Man 3, with Marc Webb directing. EON themselves were going to develop Bond 21 with Pierce Brosnan starring, and Michael Madsen confirmed he was going to be in it. Hell, Warner Bros saw the dailies of Batman & Robin and, in their coke addled minds, thought not only was this a good film but one that warranted a direct sequel helmed by Joel Schumacher. It's only after the film came out and everyone hated it that they were disabused of this and cancelled their plans for a sequel.

It also doesn't really matter what Cubby Broccoli said publicly. Firstly of course he was publicly going to champion Dalton. He hired Dalton. He'd been trying to get Dalton to play Bond as far back as 1971, he was not going to admit publicly that they were exploring other options. Secondly, Cubby Broccoli's failing health, leading to his death, meant he wasn't as involved with GoldenEye as he was with the other films.
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A variety of factors were attributed to how Licence to Kill performed at the box office in 1989. There's a reason why there hasn't been a Bond film released in the summer since then.
There's also a reason why Timothy Dalton hasn't been in a Bond film since 1989.

Lead actors get blamed for a film's poor performance all the time, this is common sense. They are the most visible part of the movie. This is why Elisha Cook Jr said he always took supporting roles, because there's plenty of work for a supporting actor and they can't blame the picture's failure on you.

I'm not saying that Licence to Kill underperformed because of Dalton, I like Dalton and the film, and know very well about the poor decisions in marketing and scheduling that led its poor performance. I'm saying that Dalton was the scapegoat, and that's reflected in their attitude to the Dalton films for the next decade. You pointed it out yourself, the beginning of GoldenEye is set in 1986, the implication being that Brosnan was Bond in '86 and Dalton never happened.
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Old 08-02-2022, 12:33 PM   #62
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They didn’t even want Timothy Dalton as Bond for The Living Daylights. They wanted Pierce Brosnan but do to his contractual obligations on the TV show Remington Steele he couldn’t.

Timothy Dalton was a terrible bond. He had no charisma or screen presence. His career completely fizzled out after Bond. He was never leading man material. That’s why all the films he’s done after Bond he was either the villain or some bit side character.
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Old 08-02-2022, 01:15 PM   #63
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Timothy Dalton was a terrible bond. He had no charisma or screen presence. His career completely fizzled out after Bond. He was never leading man material. That’s why all the films he’s done after Bond he was either the villain or some bit side character.
Honestly I felt Dalton in Living Daylights worked much better than Brosnan ever did as a charming Bond.

I think Brosnan ended up working really well in Goldeneye exactly because he came across as bit over slick, that his Bond persona was a less likeble and blander merger of the previous Bonds worked in a story that brought out the man behind that persona. I'd like to think he did that on purpose making Bond more obnoxious but the problem was after Goldeneye he was just doing that persona with nothing behind it most of the time.

You could argue really though that besides Connery none of the Bonds have really had great sucess in Hollywood otherwise, I suspect a bit part of that is that charming English heroes don't really have much of a place as Hollywood leads outside of Bond, Connery obviously getting around that.
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Old 08-02-2022, 01:23 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandboxgamer View Post
Timothy Dalton was a terrible bond. He had no charisma or screen presence. His career completely fizzled out after Bond. He was never leading man material. Thatís why all the films heís done after Bond he was either the villain or some bit side character.
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Old 08-02-2022, 02:29 PM   #65
kwisatzhaderach kwisatzhaderach is offline
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Originally Posted by sandboxgamer View Post
Timothy Dalton was a terrible bond. He had no charisma or screen presence. His career completely fizzled out after Bond. He was never leading man material. Thatís why all the films heís done after Bond he was either the villain or some bit side character.
Ah the internets...
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Old 08-02-2022, 03:04 PM   #66
Zechs Merquise Zechs Merquise is offline
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They didn’t even want Timothy Dalton as Bond for The Living Daylights. They wanted Pierce Brosnan but do to his contractual obligations on the TV show Remington Steele he couldn’t.
That's incorrect. EON offered it to Timothy Dalton first . But Dalton couldn't do it because he was filming Brenda Starr. So they offered it to Brosnan, who accepted. But then NBC, who'd cancelled Remington Steele, had dollar signs in their eyes because they heard Pierce was going to be Bond and this would have done big numbers for their show. So, his contract for Remington Steele had something like a 90 day grace period, for the network to change their minds and renew it, and on the last day, they decided to renew the show. The idea was they'd work out the scheduling so Brosnan could do both Bond and Remington Steele. But Cubby Broccoli didn't want to share Brosnan so consequently he was let go from The Living Daylights. Incidentally another casualty of this was Stephanie Zimbalist, who got cast in Robocop and had to drop out when Steele got renewed. The network weren't interested working around her so she could do both. So, naturally, the final season of Remington Steele was rather acrimonious.

They then went back to Timothy Dalton, who was still doing Brenda Starr and he said he would do it if the producers could wait six weeks for him to wrap up filming. They agreed and Timothy Dalton was cast.

The irony is, Brenda Starr didn't even get released until 1989 (1992 in America) and Remington Steele got cancelled after a lackluster fifth season early on in 1987, way before Living Daylights started filming, so either actor could have done the film when first asked.
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Originally Posted by sandboxgamer View Post
Timothy Dalton was a terrible bond. He had no charisma or screen presence. His career completely fizzled out after Bond. He was never leading man material. That’s why all the films he’s done after Bond he was either the villain or some bit side character.
It takes a lot of charisma and screen presence to be the villain, that's why he's more memorable in Rocketeer than Billy Campbell. That's also why a lot of people tend to remember Anthony Hopkins as Lecter rather than Jodie Foster as Starling, or Heath Ledger/Jack Nicholson as the Joker rather than Christian Bale/Michael Keaton as Batman.
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Originally Posted by moreorless View Post
You could argue really though that besides Connery none of the Bonds have really had great sucess in Hollywood otherwise, I suspect a bit part of that is that charming English heroes don't really have much of a place as Hollywood leads outside of Bond, Connery obviously getting around that.
Pierce is the only one besides Connery (and now I suppose Craig) to be a big movie star outside of Bond

Last edited by Zechs Merquise; 08-02-2022 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 08-02-2022, 03:25 PM   #67
Benoit Blanc Benoit Blanc is offline
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Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise View Post
That's incorrect. EON offered it to Timothy Dalton first . But Dalton couldn't do it because he was filming Brenda Starr. So they offered it to Brosnan, who accepted. But then NBC, who'd cancelled Remington Steele, had dollar signs in their eyes because they heard Pierce was going to be Bond and this would have done big numbers for their show. So, his contract for Remington Steele had something like a 90 day grace period, for the network to change their minds and renew it, and on the last day, they decided to renew the show. The idea was they'd work out the scheduling so Brosnan could do both Bond and Remington Steele. But Cubby Broccoli didn't want to share Brosnan so consequently he was let go from The Living Daylights. Incidentally another casualty of this was Stephanie Zimbalist, who got cast in Robocop and had to drop out when Steele got renewed. The network weren't interested working around her so she could do both. So, naturally, the final season of Remington Steele was rather acrimonious.

They then went back to Timothy Dalton, who was still doing Brenda Starr and he said he would do it if the producers could wait six weeks for him to wrap up filming. They agreed and Timothy Dalton was cast.

The irony is, Brenda Starr didn't even get released until 1989 (1992 in America) and Remington Steele got cancelled after a lackluster fifth season early on in 1987, way before Living Daylights started filming, so either actor could have done the film when first asked.
It takes a lot of charisma and screen presence to be the villain, that's why he's more memorable in Rocketeer than Billy Campbell. That's also why a lot of people tend to remember Anthony Hopkins as Lecter rather than Jodie Foster as Starling, or Heath Ledger/Jack Nicholson as the Joker rather than Christian Bale/Michael Keaton as Batman.
Pierce is the only one besides Connery (and now I suppose Craig) to be a big movie star outside of Bond
Not quite true. Broccoli was willing to let the Remington Steele people have Brosnan for 6 episodes but they said no, they wanted him for 22. So then Broccoli let Brosnan go from The Living Daylights but then only 6 episodes of Remington Steele were made before the show got cancelled. So if they'd agreed to 6 in the first place, Brosnan could have done both.
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Old 08-02-2022, 06:35 PM   #68
Todd Tomorrow Todd Tomorrow is offline
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1. Daniel Craig
2. Pierce Brosnan
3. George Lazenby
4. Sean Connery
5. Timothy Dalton
6. Roger Moore

With Craig and Brosnan their first Bond films are their best.

George Lazenby's first and last Bond movie was once dismissed and is now considered to be among the best. Lazenby isn't a great fit for Bond but also not the disaster he was made out to be.

Dr. No is a fine start but better was to come with the next two Connery movies.

Dalton's debut is ok but I prefer his lurid follow up.

Moore didn't hit his stride till The Spy Who Loved Me when they started to write for his self-deprecating personality. His first two films were still written for a cold blooded Connery-style Bond and Moore looked out of his depth.
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Old 08-02-2022, 07:06 PM   #69
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There's also a reason why Timothy Dalton hasn't been in a Bond film since 1989.
Right. Because a legal battle led to the cancellation of this third appearance while it was in pre-production, and he turned down the opportunity to reprise the role once the series resumed in 1994.
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:51 PM   #70
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Maybe it's the nostalgia talking, but I had to go with Goldeneye. Brosnan glides through that film, though his performance in The World is Not Enough is arguably better.
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Old 08-02-2022, 10:54 PM   #71
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Maybe it's the nostalgia talking, but I had to go with Goldeneye. Brosnan glides through that film, though his performance in The World is Not Enough is arguably better.
Next week can't get here fast enough.
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Old 08-02-2022, 11:04 PM   #72
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Next week can't get here fast enough.
I had such a dodgy experience with Licence to Kill last night, that I'm thinking of maybe seeing it at a different cinema. What I've enjoyed about the Cineworld screenings is they have been getting good crowds (it really has added to the experience), but last night made me feel really dejected. I did think about maybe calling it a day after Licence to Kill, because I saw all the Brosnan and Craig films on initial release, but there's no way I'm ending this run on such a sour note. Besides, that 4K Goldeneye transfer should look great and the nostalgia of seeing it in the cinema again (it was my first theatrical Bond experience) is too much to pass up.
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Old 08-02-2022, 11:16 PM   #73
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I had such a dodgy experience with Licence to Kill last night, that I'm thinking of maybe seeing it at a different cinema. What I've enjoyed about the Cineworld screenings is they have been getting good crowds (it really has added to the experience), but last night made me feel really dejected. I did think about maybe calling it a day after Licence to Kill, because I saw all the Brosnan and Craig films on initial release, but there's no way I'm ending this run on such a sour note. Besides, that 4K Goldeneye transfer should look great and the nostalgia of seeing it in the cinema again (it was my first theatrical Bond experience) is too much to pass up.
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Old 08-02-2022, 11:18 PM   #74
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That shot left quite the impression on 12 going on 13 year old Indisposed...

Straight up... With a twist.
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Old 09-27-2022, 12:02 AM   #75
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Definitely GoldenEye... one of my favorite James Bond best debut movie!

Live and Let Die
Dr. No
Casino Royale
The Living Daylight
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