A Guide to Bipolar, Dipolar, & Direct-Radiating Monopole Surround Speakers (PART II)

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by ron51

Question for big daddy.
I have a friend that is setting himself up 7.1. The problem is that his main sitting couch in right up against his back wall. ( ouch) He already owns 4 tower speakers and 4 bipole speakers, I suggested that he use 1 pair of bipole for front height since he has NO BACK space behind his couch.
Now is it better for him to use 2 bipole on his back wall ( over top his head) and facing the the center of the room or on the side walls facing the center of the room. Or as a third option to forget about bipole as the side speakers and just use tower speakers as the side speakers. I know that not one of these option is a great option but which would be the best of the 3 options.

From my understanding, di/bi-poles are not a good option for wide or heights, but you or your friend may like how it sounds.

Use the bi-pole as side surrounds, but can you explain what you mean by “the side walls facing the center of the room.” Are you talking about angling the side speakers to face the center? Or you giving a description of you facing the center of the room?

[ron51]

first, Atlantic Technology was one of the first to offer bipole for heights. Height speakers is for ambient sound from Dolby pro logic IIz height channel. Since bipole speakers work very well for ambient sounds is sure stands to reason Atlantic Technology has it right.
As for the second part of the question. If I am sitting facing the TV right in front of me, some 18ft away and my side walls are 6ft away on each side of my head and the back wall is right behind me at maybe 1-1.5ft away.
So back to the question, 1- use two extra tower speakers as side surrounds aimed at my head from each side of the couch or 2- use bipole speakers again as surrounds aimed at my head ( but 2 ft higher) each side on the couch. OR 3- forget sides and just use bipole sides right on the back wall and 2 ft above my head aiming right at the TV and front tower speakers. The reason I ask this question is that I don't if using bipole speakers so close to a back wall will have sound reflect in a wierd pattern of that back wall. In one of Big Daddys diagrams he has a couch with 2 direct firing speakers on each side of the couch and they are firing frontwards and not right at the listeners head. If the back wall is right in back of the couch do I use direct firing towers? or bipole on the back wall firing towards the TV?

[MikeCL]

So what about what I suggested for my room?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by MikeCL

I was thinking about getting a bipole setup for the rears for my room my room is square however my TV is in the corner because it's sitting on my desk and I use it as a PC monitor as well, so this means if I'm right I could have to place the bipole's in the rear but in the corner of each.

I'm hoping it sounds a little better then the monopole's I have now

Bipole surround speakers sound better than monopole speakers in a small home theater room. For monopole surround speakers to work properly, you need many of them placed far from your listening area. Make sure you adjust the levels of the surround speakers properly so that one speakers does not dominate the other one.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by ron51

first, Atlantic Technology was one of the first to offer bipole for heights. Height speakers is for ambient sound from Dolby pro logic IIz height channel. Since bipole speakers work very well for ambient sounds is sure stands to reason Atlantic Technology has it right.
As for the second part of the question. If I am sitting facing the TV right in front of me, some 18ft away and my side walls are 6ft away on each side of my head and the back wall is right behind me at maybe 1-1.5ft away.
So back to the question, 1- use two extra tower speakers as side surrounds aimed at my head from each side of the couch or 2- use bipole speakers again as surrounds aimed at my head ( but 2 ft higher) each side on the couch. OR 3- forget sides and just use bipole sides right on the back wall and 2 ft above my head aiming right at the TV and front tower speakers. The reason I ask this question is that I don't if using bipole speakers so close to a back wall will have sound reflect in a wierd pattern of that back wall. In one of Big Daddys diagrams he has a couch with 2 direct firing speakers on each side of the couch and they are firing frontwards and not right at the listeners head. If the back wall is right in back of the couch do I use direct firing towers? or bipole on the back wall firing towards the TV?

According to Chris (technology director at Audyssey and a professor at USC), you should not use bipole or dipole speakers for front height or front wide.

Bipole speakers work perfectly for side and rear surround speakers in a small home theater room. If you plan to use monopole surround speakers for movie applications, make sure they are placed as far away from the listening area and also direct them toward the front of the room and not toward your head.

[ron51]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

According to Chris (technology director at Audyssey and a professor at USC), you should not use bipole or dipole speakers for front height or front wide.

Bipole speakers work perfectly for side and rear surround speakers in a small home theater room. If you plan to use monopole surround speakers for movie applications, make sure they are placed as far away from the listening area and also direct them toward the front of the rrom and not toward your head.

yes but which speakers? bipole speakers above my head and pointing towards the tv as i sit on my couch, OR, Mono pole speakers on each side of the couch pointing towards the tv ??

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by ron51

yes but which speakers? bipole speakers above my head and pointing towards the tv as i sit on my couch, OR, Mono pole speakers on each side of the couch pointing towards the tv ??

Rear monopole speakers should be pointed toward the screen. The side sorround monopole speakers should be pointed toward the opposite walls. They can be angled donward very slightly (not too much)

Bipole speakers fire in two directions and the waves are reflected off the walls.

[manonfire]

is it bad to have dipole speakers on back wall or are they better of used as side surrounds

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by manonfire

is it bad to have dipole speakers on back wall or are they better of used as side surrounds

You can read the very first post of this thread.

[Fidi]

Big daddy..I have read your interesting publication but have i few questions cause i dont wrily know whos advise im going to take..

My question and my problem is;
For a 7.1 setup..isn't monopole-bipole 7.1 surround sound setup the best?

What you say is very logical.
For most of the houses logical its more pratice to use for a 7.1 setup, bipole-bipole surround sound setup..because most of the living room are not very spacious for using monopole surround speakers etc.

But.
Dolby says to use 7 full range identical speakers (all monopole) in a home theather for a good surround sound.
Dolby says, ich speaker has his role that's why its beter to use monopole speakers.
-->I dont want to go for this setup.


-->My problem lies in your phylosofy and thx philosofy. My problem lies on the back surround speakers in a 7.1 setup.


THX says; like dolby that ich speaker in a home theatre has his own role.
THX says; for a good 7.1 setup for movie( for home theatre)..monopole-bipole 7.1 surround sound setup is the best.
Link: http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-ent...peaker-set-up/

THX:
'Surround Left & Right Speakers (SL & SR): Place the SL & SR speakers between 90° to 110° to each side and 2 feet or higher above the listener. The SL & SR speakers recreate the enveloping sound and intense special effects that you experience in the cinema.'
--> Surround left and right are bipole/dipole..this is ok for me because you say to use bipole/dipole and thx engineers also.

My problem lies here
'Surround Back Left & Right Speakers (SBL & SBR)*: The SBL & SBR speakers should be the direct firing type and placed together on the back wall. This allows the THX Advanced Speaker Array, or ASA technology to deliver its maximum effect. If the SBL and the SBR speakers can not be placed together, refer to your THX Certified Pre-amplifier or Receiver’s “THX Set Up” menu for alternative configurations.'

For THX, surround back speakers should be monopole speakers. They recommend monopole because of the role that these speaker play in a movie.
The role is to give the surround sound more effect(maximum effect) and for a maximume effect its better to use monopole speaker because its more precise.
For THX the 2 bipole/dipole speakers on the side are enough to give enough diffuse surround effect.
Link: http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-tech...d-sound-modes/
link 2: http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-tech...iver-features/

The role of back surround speakers by dolby: provide a more 'intense' surround experience by enabling enhaced localization of sound effects.

Dolby engineers also recommend monopole speakers for back surround in a 7.1.
'2 big interprizes that are agree wiht each other(thx and dolby).'


So my problem is whos advise will i have to take?yours or thx engineers?

Can you help me and give me a few advises.


-------------

I have now a 5.1 setup..3 front identical(center + front speakers, all monopole) speakers and 2 side bipole surround speakers.
Its sounds very great but want to upgrade in a 7.1 speaker setup.

I have never tried a 7.1 setup with bipole side/ and bipole back(surround speakers setup).
And i have also never tried bipole side/and monopole speaker back(surround speakers setup)

If you have ever tested this can you give me and idea how its sound.
Advantages and disavantages.
In your publication, you gave it a 'very good' score..but you gave bipole side/bipole back(surround setup), excellent as score..Why 'verry good'?

I hope that you could understand my english..i dont speak english verry well.

Thank u.

[Big Daddy]

Fidi,

If your home theater room is large and you can sit far away from the surround speakers, you can use monopole speakers. However, if you have a small room and you are sitting too close to the surround speakers, it is much better to use bipole/dipole surround speakers.

Finally, if you have one or two subwoofers in the room, it is not necessary to use full-range surround speakers. Let the lower frequencies go to the more strategically placed subwoofer(s).

[Fidi]

Ok thanks.

I have also noticed that you recommend using for small rooms, small surround speakers instead of big surround speakers.
Why?

Is it because we cant use big speakers optimal in a small room?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fidi

Ok thanks.

I have also noticed that you recommend using for small rooms, small surround speakers instead of big surround speakers.
Why?

Is it because we cant use big speakers optimal in a small room?

I don't have any preference. Most people attach their surround speakers to the walls. It is much easier to attach small speakers to the walls. In addition, surround speakers from almost all speaker manufacturers tend to be small. The large speakers are used for the front sound stage.

[Fidi]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I use six surround speakers. Each set is from a different company.

Side Surround A: Two Bipole PSB Image S50
Side Surround B: Two Bipole Def Tech BPX
Rear Surround: Two Bose 901

Big daddy, you mentioned that you use 2 pairs side surround speakers.
I also want to use 2 pairs of side surround speakers.

But my question is;
Does it wrily improve your sound?
Do we have phase cancellation problem because of using 2 pairs of side surround speakers? Because its the case if you use for example 2 center speakers.
What's advantage and disvantage?
Do you use 2 receivers or just one?
In the cinema how do they do it to use a lot of pairs for surround sound?
Using 2 pairs of side surround speakers in parrallel is it also ok?


Thanks

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fidi

Big daddy, you mentioned that you use 2 pairs side surround speakers.
I also want to use 2 pairs of side surround speakers.

But my question is;
Does it wrily improve your sound?
Do we have phase cancellation problem because of using 2 pairs of side surround speakers? Because its the case if you use for example 2 center speakers.
What's advantage and disvantage?
Do you use 2 receivers or just one?
In the cinema how do they do it to use a lot of pairs for surround sound?
Using 2 pairs of side surround speakers in parrallel is it also ok?


Thanks

If you have a large room, two sets of side surround speakers can help as you will be immersed in sound like a large commercial theater with multiple side surround speakers.

Your receiver has to support two sets of side surround speakers. My previous receiver, a Denon 4308CI, supported that. My current receiver (Yamaha Aventage 3010) supports two side surrounds, two rear surrounds, two side/rear effect and two front height speakers. This is in addition to the three front speakers. They have already taken care of the sound that comes out of the surround and effect speakers so that you do not get any phase cancellation.

[Fidi]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

If you have a large room, two sets of side surround speakers can help as you will be immersed in sound like a large commercial theater with multiple side surround speakers.

Your receiver has to support two sets of side surround speakers. My previous receiver, a Denon 4308CI, supported that.

What if your receiver doesnt support 2 sets of side surround speakers.
Will adding extra side surround speakers in parrallel still improve the surround sound?
Wont i have phase cancelation problem by installing the 2 side surround speakers in parrallel?

Thanks.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fidi

What if your receiver doesnt support 2 sets of side surround speakers.



Thanks.

Will adding extra side surround speakers in parrallel still improve the surround sound?

You can do that and it may help if you have a large home theater room. However, you must use different sources (amps) to power them. If you connect them to the same receiver output in parallel, the impedance will drop and that may kill your receiver.

Wont i have phase cancelation problem by installing the 2 side surround speakers in parrallel?

Yes, you may have phase cancellation. However, by positioning them carefully and experimenting, you may be able to minimize the effect of phase cancellation. I should emphasize again that if you decide to do it, you must use a different amp to power the second set of side surround speakers.

[Fidi]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

If you connect them to the same receiver output in parallel, the impedance will drop and that may kill your receiver.

I should emphasize again that if you decide to do it, you must use a different amp to power the second set of side surround speakers.

Thanks a lot.

Last question.

About impendance problem. I know.
My receiver supports 4 ohm impendance, and im planning using 2 same speakers of 8 ohm impendance what will result 4 ohm if i put it in parrallel.
I have the receiver: YAMAHA RXV571T
Link:http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...v571_black__u/


Will it still kill my receiver?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fidi

Thanks a lot.

Last question.

About impendance problem. I know.
My receiver supports 4 ohm impendance, and im planning using 2 same speakers of 8 ohm impendance what will result 4 ohm if i put it in parrallel.
I have the receiver: YAMAHA RXV571T
Link:http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...v571_black__u/


Will it still kill my receiver?

Although some receivers such as Yamaha claim that they can handle 4 ohm speakers, they can only do this at reduced performance. Audioholics did a test and proved this.

If you use a 4 ohm load on a receiver or amp that is not truly made to handle low impedance loads, it will get hot, distort, and eventually fail.

[Fidi]

Ok thanks.