Best Blu-ray Movie Deals


Best Blu-ray Movie Deals, See All the Deals »
Top deals | New deals  
 All countries United States United Kingdom Canada Germany France Spain Italy Australia Netherlands Japan Mexico
All Quiet on the Western Front 4K (Blu-ray)
$31.49
3 hrs ago
Operation Fortune: Ruse de Guerre 4K (Blu-ray)
$26.45
1 day ago
The Running Man 4K (Blu-ray)
$22.14
46 min ago
The Godfather Trilogy 4K (Blu-ray)
$49.99
1 day ago
Shazam! Fury of the Gods 4K (Blu-ray)
$29.96
1 day ago
Pasolini 101 (Blu-ray)
$199.99
1 day ago
Superman I-IV 5-Film Collection 4K (Blu-ray)
$97.99
 
The Sorrow and the Pity (Blu-ray)
$24.80
3 hrs ago
The Italian Job 4K (Blu-ray)
$22.14
1 day ago
Plane 4K (Blu-ray)
$24.96
1 day ago
Star Trek: The Next Generation Motion Picture Collection 4K (Blu-ray)
$77.99
 
Planet of the Apes Trilogy 4K (Blu-ray)
$17.99
 
What's your next favorite movie?
Join our movie community to find out


Image from: Life of Pi (2012)

Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Movies > Blu-ray Movies - North America

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-29-2013, 10:11 PM   #981
JavaJulien JavaJulien is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
JavaJulien's Avatar
 
Jun 2012
Tallahassee, Fl
155
4
4
16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
No, the Peter Pan BD looks great.
Not to beat a dead horse but how did Cinderella come into the discussion then?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 10:12 PM   #982
RebelPrince1986 RebelPrince1986 is offline
Special Member
 
Oct 2008
4
184
8
389
83
Default

Regarding the missing sparkles on Cinderella...
I'm beginning the think the problem is not that the scrubbed it too hard, it's in the color-timing.

I tossed the Blu-ray cap in PhotoShop and played around with it for a while, trying different things.

As soon as I brightened up the mid-levels a bit, the sparkles suddenly started to re-appear. This isn't something you can simply achieve by turning up the brightness, it's a mid-level tweak.

Now, this obviously isn't perfect, because it's a quick, lossy mock up I did in about 2 minutes... But it is clear from this that the sparkles are not missing as I had originally thought, they are just masked by shadows.

[Show spoiler]


The point I'm getting at is that maybe Disney didn't scrub the film quite as harshly as we have been accusing, the problem seems to lie in the color-timing.

Last edited by RebelPrince1986; 01-29-2013 at 10:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 10:13 PM   #983
EddieLarkin EddieLarkin is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
EddieLarkin's Avatar
 
Jun 2011
377
3559
906
1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
But in Alice, they did and the ripple glass effects are replaced by a weird hard edged digital approximation. Another problem is that when the background is a held frame and the character is moving, the film weave makes the character shimmer slightly over the rock hard held BG.
Can you note the location of some of these shots in Alice so I can take a look? I assume there should be one near the beginning when she sees the white rabbit in the reflection of the pond?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 10:15 PM   #984
PuppyJonathan PuppyJonathan is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
PuppyJonathan's Avatar
 
Apr 2012
6
67
75
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebelPrince1986 View Post
Regarding the missing sparkles on Cinderella...
I'm beginning the think the problem is not that the scrubbed it too hard, it's in the coloring.

I tossed the Blu-ray cap in PhotoShop and played around with it for a while, trying different things.

As soon as I brightened up the mid-levels a bit, the sparkles suddenly started to re-appear. This isn't something you can simply achieve by turning up the brightness, it's a mid-level tweak.

Now, this obviously isn't perfect, because it's a quick, lossy mock up I did in about 2 minutes... But it is clear from this that the sparkles are not missing as I had originally thought, they are just masked by shadows.

[Show spoiler]


The point I'm getting at is that maybe Disney didn't scrub the film quite as harshly as we have been accusing, the problem seems to lie in the color-timing.
Oh wow, shocking!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 10:51 PM   #985
The Mad Kiwi The Mad Kiwi is online now
Power Member
 
The Mad Kiwi's Avatar
 
Jun 2010
Florida
145
808
130
15
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
But in Alice, they did and the ripple glass effects are replaced by a weird hard edged digital approximation. Another problem is that when the background is a held frame and the character is moving, the film weave makes the character shimmer slightly over the rock hard held BG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
Can you note the location of some of these shots in Alice so I can take a look? I assume there should be one near the beginning when she sees the white rabbit in the reflection of the pond?
I don't mean to continue the derailment of this thread (really, most of the past few pages should be in the Disney restoration thread), but I'd like to know where these instances occur, as well. As someone who's seen Walt Disney's Alice in Wonderland an unhealthy amount of times (as if my avatar and and user name didn't already imply that), I've noticed no difference in the the ripple effects at the end of "In A World of My Own," when Alice loses her balance and falls head first into the bottle, or during "The Walrus and the Carpenter" - the only scenes I can think of that feature such effects. I haven't detected any instances of the characters weaving due to a frozen background, either.

The only thing about Alice's restoration I find questionable is the color saturation, which seems a tad too boosted. However, this doesn't bother me one bit as I think the palette serves the film well. The various changes in color scheme during the rabbit hole sequence aren't as smooth as they once were, either (you can seem the seams from when one hue changes to another whereas on previous masters, the changes were gradual), but it's not enough for me to rage over.

And we can't use cels as a reference due to the slight changes in tone of the color palette via the Technicolor process (hence why Alice's hair looks greenish in cels). From the articles of read I've read on Sleeping Beauty and Dumbo's restorations, the restoration team digs out the surviving cels from the Disney Vault and photographs them using a type of Technicolor camera to get a better idea of what the final result should be. I would assume the same was done for Alice.

Last edited by The Mad Kiwi; 01-29-2013 at 11:03 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:40 AM   #986
The Edge The Edge is offline
Power Member
 
The Edge's Avatar
 
Oct 2012
Wilmington, California
276
608
78
1
7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason_Ireton View Post
To kindly get the subject on track after the whole "Negative Print vs Blu/VHS" conversation, I e mailed TGReaper bout any audio flaws, like Pinocchio's Give A Lil Whistle" audio slip where Jiminy Cricket's "Right" Response was accidently deleted,

I informed Reaper that at 35 33 in Peter Pan, when the Lost Boys are speakin with the Indian Chief, Slightly (the Fox Lost Boy) explains the Capture Game to John/Michael. The Chief says "This time no turn 'em lose", Slightly's response is "The Cheif's a great spoofer" the word "Cheif" is semi muted, So it goes like this

Chief: This time no turn 'em lose

Lost Boys: Huh?

*Slightly Laughs*

Slightly: The *mute* a great spoofer


I asked Reap to double check this mistake and he confirmed it, he played the scene with subtitles, the word "Chief" still appears, the audio itself was still semi muted.


I know this isn't a BIG issue like the Pinocchio inccident but it makes me wonder if this was a TRUE accident or purpose
Might we see a disc replacement program for that?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 01:17 AM   #987
metaridley metaridley is offline
Banned
 
Feb 2012
Default

[Show spoiler]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
(I'm not directly in the producton business anymore, but I believe all of the following is still accurate):

The negative is almost never used. For older films, the negative either doesn't exist or is so beat up, it can't be used. And as Martin Scorsese has pointed out many times, the more popular a film, the worst shape the negative is going to be in. For great classic films for which the studio is willing to spend some money, like Lawrence of Arabia or The Godfather I and II, a restoration is done. But not that many films are going to get restored because the economics simply aren't there.

Before the advent of home video, the studios were so idiotic, many of them tossed two of the three strips of 3-strip technicolor negatives, thinking that they were dups of each other. All to save storage costs.

Furthermore, the negative doesn't have any color timing. Color timing is applied at the time the master print is made (or the inter-positive). For many years, the timing changes were recorded to punched paper tape. Usually those have disappeared or there's no machine to play them back on so color timing has to be re-applied by using a print as a reference even in the cases where they can use a negative.

Usually, the master used for prints is several generations from the negative, especially if special effects are involved. One of the (few) good things Lucas did with the Star Wars OT was to go back and rework most of the dissolves from scene to scene because there was severe generational loss in the originals.

In some cases, the negative is scanned, reversed, and then all of the color correction is reapplied in the computer and then it's re-rendered.

At least 50% of all films produced before 1950 have disappeared forever.

But in most cases today, even in many cases for relatively recent (but pre-digital) films, the BD is mastered from a print, not from a negative, because even if the negative exists, it's simply too much work and too expensive to re-create a "print" for BD. As good as BD looks for so many older titles, it still has generation loss because they're generally made from prints which is why they apply both sharpening and noise reduction, frequently to the detriment of the end result.

Back when I was in film school in the 1970s, my school had 16mm prints of classic films for use in the film history course. While 16mm prints were generally considered to be of poor quality and frequently made from poor sources, these prints were absolutely fantastic and were incredibly sharp and clean, even for many silent films. Projected on professional equipment in a full sized movie theatre, you simply could not tell the difference between these and 35mm. I've never seen a BD that looked as good as those prints. It's not a fault of the technology, it's that the source materials have deteriorated drastically over the last 40 years.


Wow, that was really interesting and informative. Thank you for sharing those technical details!!

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 01:53 AM   #988
disneyfreak disneyfreak is offline
Power Member
 
disneyfreak's Avatar
 
Mar 2011
44
20
1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by taei View Post
Off-topic,

but oh well..

[Show spoiler]
omg. I don't know what this is, and I don't know why I think its so funny. But I died. hahah
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 01:30 PM   #989
bsweetness bsweetness is offline
Blu-ray Ninja
 
bsweetness's Avatar
 
Sep 2008
-
-
-
-
85
Default

Best Buy will have the 3 disc Diamond Edition for $27.99 and the 2 disc for $22.99 next week (ad scan here). $6 off if you buy the Diamond Edition and "any Disney fairies Blu-ray."

No word on Target's prices yet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 02:22 PM   #990
cvargo cvargo is offline
Senior Member
 
cvargo's Avatar
 
Aug 2012
West Valley City, UT
1
573
7
8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaridley View Post

Wow, that was really interesting and informative. Thank you for sharing those technical details!!


Every post from you seems like sarcasm because of your avatar. love it
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 02:23 PM   #991
cvargo cvargo is offline
Senior Member
 
cvargo's Avatar
 
Aug 2012
West Valley City, UT
1
573
7
8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsweetness View Post
Best Buy will have the 3 disc Diamond Edition for $27.99 and the 2 disc for $22.99 next week (ad scan here). $6 off if you buy the Diamond Edition and "any Disney fairies Blu-ray."

No word on Target's prices yet.

Hopefully since the digibook is a two disc it will be priced at the $22 and they take the $5 coupon
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 04:29 PM   #992
PuppyJonathan PuppyJonathan is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
PuppyJonathan's Avatar
 
Apr 2012
6
67
75
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
(I'm not directly in the producton business anymore, but I believe all of the following is still accurate):

The negative is almost never used. For older films, the negative either doesn't exist or is so beat up, it can't be used. And as Martin Scorsese has pointed out many times, the more popular a film, the worst shape the negative is going to be in. For great classic films for which the studio is willing to spend some money, like Lawrence of Arabia or The Godfather I and II, a restoration is done. But not that many films are going to get restored because the economics simply aren't there.

[Show spoiler]Before the advent of home video, the studios were so idiotic, many of them tossed two of the three strips of 3-strip technicolor negatives, thinking that they were dups of each other. All to save storage costs.

Furthermore, the negative doesn't have any color timing. Color timing is applied at the time the master print is made (or the inter-positive). For many years, the timing changes were recorded to punched paper tape. Usually those have disappeared or there's no machine to play them back on so color timing has to be re-applied by using a print as a reference even in the cases where they can use a negative.

Usually, the master used for prints is several generations from the negative, especially if special effects are involved. One of the (few) good things Lucas did with the Star Wars OT was to go back and rework most of the dissolves from scene to scene because there was severe generational loss in the originals.

In some cases, the negative is scanned, reversed, and then all of the color correction is reapplied in the computer and then it's re-rendered.

At least 50% of all films produced before 1950 have disappeared forever.

But in most cases today, even in many cases for relatively recent (but pre-digital) films, the BD is mastered from a print, not from a negative, because even if the negative exists, it's simply too much work and too expensive to re-create a "print" for BD. As good as BD looks for so many older titles, it still has generation loss because they're generally made from prints which is why they apply both sharpening and noise reduction, frequently to the detriment of the end result.

Back when I was in film school in the 1970s, my school had 16mm prints of classic films for use in the film history course. While 16mm prints were generally considered to be of poor quality and frequently made from poor sources, these prints were absolutely fantastic and were incredibly sharp and clean, even for many silent films. Projected on professional equipment in a full sized movie theatre, you simply could not tell the difference between these and 35mm. I've never seen a BD that looked as good as those prints. It's not a fault of the technology, it's that the source materials have deteriorated drastically over the last 40 years.
Then what does it mean when the restoration supervisor says "we use the negative"? Not questioning you just asking you
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 05:30 PM   #993
BenAndrewsNYC BenAndrewsNYC is offline
Active Member
 
BenAndrewsNYC's Avatar
 
Aug 2012
Detroit, MI
122
428
133
138
603
267
25
44
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zot! View Post
Thanks Bigshot, I finally understand what they do with these films to look the way they do. What you're saying makes perfect sense. I'm suprised they didn't bother hand retouching the double exposed stuff like the fairy dust. I don't think it would be that hard with modern tools, and if they're being so invasive, they may as well go all out. Are there any links you know that discuss this process in more detail?
explains it pretty well
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 05:42 PM   #994
bigshot bigshot is offline
Blu-ray Ninja
 
bigshot's Avatar
 
Aug 2010
12
82
3
3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
Can you note the location of some of these shots in Alice so I can take a look? I assume there should be one near the beginning when she sees the white rabbit in the reflection of the pond?
The most obvious one is in the middle of the film where she looks down into a stream. The background is very dark. The ripple glass effect is all posterized.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 05:47 PM   #995
bigshot bigshot is offline
Blu-ray Ninja
 
bigshot's Avatar
 
Aug 2010
12
82
3
3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mad Kiwi View Post
I haven't detected any instances of the characters weaving due to a frozen background, either.

And we can't use cels as a reference due to the slight changes in tone of the color palette via the Technicolor process (hence why Alice's hair looks greenish in cels). From the articles of read I've read on Sleeping Beauty and Dumbo's restorations, the restoration team digs out the surviving cels from the Disney Vault and photographs them using a type of Technicolor camera to get a better idea of what the final result should be.
For weaving characters over a rock still background, look closely at Bambi. It's more noticeable on the early features because there was a tiny bit of weave in the gate combined with a tiny bit of shrinkage of the nitrate film stock combined with a tiny bit of shrinkage of the cels themselves as they were photographed. They do a pin registered transfer and digital stabilization, but these three factors at once makes complete stabilization impossible. After they recomposite the characters over a video freeze of the background, the shimmy is much more noticeable. People who have never seen the films on film before might attribute it to error in inking, but it never looked like that before the restoration prcess. You can see how when you split character and background and then recombine them, it would be unavoidable though.

The claims Disney makes about color accuracy are hogwash. They recolor these films deliberately to make them appear to be in line with the modern features. They don't want the films to look the way they did, they want them to look brand new. This is a conscious decision, and I'm told that this instruction comes from the top.

Last edited by bigshot; 01-30-2013 at 06:05 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 05:49 PM   #996
bigshot bigshot is offline
Blu-ray Ninja
 
bigshot's Avatar
 
Aug 2010
12
82
3
3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan View Post
Then what does it mean when the restoration supervisor says "we use the negative"? Not questioning you just asking you
Disney uses the three strip negatives.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 05:50 PM   #997
Clark Kent Clark Kent is offline
Blu-ray Prince
 
Clark Kent's Avatar
 
Oct 2007
Metropolis
2
183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan View Post
Then what does it mean when the restoration supervisor says "we use the negative"? Not questioning you just asking you
Disney has most of their original negatives, they were the one studio that was fastidious about keeping everything safe and sound over the years. It's the other studios that have missing negatives with some of their films.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 07:06 PM   #998
thenorm47 thenorm47 is offline
Active Member
 
Mar 2011
13
292
1
Default

amazon has price matched bestbuy now it is at 27.99$
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 07:27 PM   #999
metaridley metaridley is offline
Banned
 
Feb 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvargo View Post
Every post from you seems like sarcasm because of your avatar. love it
Hah! Well I love my avatar so much that I'm willing to risk someone misinterpreting my post(s) as sarcasm.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 07:30 PM   #1000
aherron aherron is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
aherron's Avatar
 
Feb 2009
8
1424
2
2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenorm47 View Post
amazon has price matched bestbuy now it is at 27.99$
So glad they did. So with their coupon it'll be $19.99 which is awesome.
  Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Movies > Blu-ray Movies - North America


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:28 PM.