Disney Classics Screenshot Comparisons

[filmmusic]

I haven't understood if this is a special price, and afterwards it will be more expensive.
I guess i should preorder it too, but i have first to charge my pre-paid card.

[filmmusic]

Sorry to bring back the "Beauty and the Beast" issue, but it seems someone manipulated the screenshots posted earlier in this thread:

[Show spoiler]

and made this (trying to match the original colors for the Bluray screenshots):

[Show spoiler]

It seems the last column, matches closer!!
If you open both of the screenshots in your browser (in different tabs), you can switch back and forth, to see how radical was the change of colors in the Bluray!

here's the 1st column next to the last column:

[Show spoiler]

[Freddy2]

Nice try!

But to make sure there is no mistake: these newly made "screenshots" are not the ones taken from the BD and the 3D-BD; they are color adapted trying to match the older ones, not knowing if they were actually right themselves. Not talking about personal taste here...

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by Freddy2

Nice try!

But to make sure there is no mistake: these newly made "screenshots" are not the ones taken from the BD and the 3D-BD; they are color adapted trying to match the older ones, not knowing if they were actually right themselves. Not talking about personal taste here...

That's what I said, didn't I?
that someone took the screenshots posted earlier, and changed the colors in the Bluray ones, trying to match the LD and/or VHS.

oh,you mean, that we don't know if the LD and VHS is right, right?
Well, as someone who has seen the film multiple times and it's my favourite film of all time,I can tell you that they are true to the original theatrical showing.
Now, if that was wrong, I don't know. The thing I know is that the first presentation of the movie, the way I loved it, was like the LD/VHS, and certainly not like the orange/yellow sky of the BLurays.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

Now, if that was wrong, I don't know. The thing I know is that the first presentation of the movie, the way I loved it, was like the LD/VHS, and certainly not like the orange/yellow sky of the BLurays.

So the 1991 theatrical presentations had an extremely limited color range like NTSC video?

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

So the 1991 theatrical presentations had an extremely limited color range like NTSC video?

why do you say it's extremely limited?
it's just another color palette.


and the fact that even the 2d and 3d Bluray don't match in the colors, is proof that they're constantly changing them, and they didn't use the original colors.
If they did, the 2 Blurays would be identical!

[Freddy2]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

oh,you mean, that we don't know if the LD and VHS is right, right?

Right.

But as I said before, I like the VHS colors most, not because I remember them as such, but simply because they represent the time of day best: it was morning in that scene, not evening like it seems on the BD, so it's reasonable to assume those colors are closer to what the artists intended.

Originally Posted by filmmusic

and the fact that even the 2d and 3d Bluray don't match in the colors, is proof that they're constantly changing them, and they didn't use the original colors.
If they did, the 2 Blurays would be identical!

No, not necessarily, as the 3D is supposed to be watched through dark 3D glasses.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by Freddy2

Right.

But as I said before, I like the VHS colors most, not because I remember them as such, but simply because they represent the time of day best: it was morning in that scene, not evening like it seems on the BD, so it's reasonable to assume those colors are closer to what the artists intended.

Yes I agree. It seems like a sunset in the Blurays, and not morning.
i'm ok with the VHS colors too. VHS and LD don't differ THAT much! They have the same color palette. A bit darker there, a bit lighter there, doesn't matter.
But VHS/LD differ substantially from the Blurays (and DVD)! They are completely different colors (not different shades of the same colors)

At least in the 3d Bluray, some things are right:

I'm sure the original painter, had painted the book pages white, and not pink!


another thing that bugs me much is the loss of shadow in the lights in the Be out Guest scene.
here is how it was approx.:

and here's how it is now:
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/scree...759&position=3

So, the original thing was like in the Bluray,and when they printed it on film it caused that perfect shadow?
NO WAY!
They just changed it in the Bluray to be brighter (and more kitsch if you ask me)

Not to talk about Gaston's outfit, which was dark red-brownish, and now it's fire-red.

All these changes reflect our era, which wants bright oversaturated colors and don't represent at all the original thing!
If a Bluray was released back in the 90s, I'm sure there wouldn't be any change.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

why do you say it's extremely limited?
it's just another color palette.

Because wags call NTSC "Never Twice the Same Color"

When it was invented in the 1950s it was piggybacked onto the existing B&W signal. It's limited. It does not properly reproduce the color range of a film print.

and the fact that even the 2d and 3d Bluray don't match in the colors, is proof that they're constantly changing them, and they didn't use the original colors.
If they did, the 2 Blurays would be identical!

Except you haven't presented film cels or frames to say exactly what the original colors were!

NEVER USE LASERDISCS AS A REFERENCE FOR ORIGINAL COLOR!

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Except you haven't presented film cels or frames to say exactly what the original colors were!

NEVER USE LASERDISCS AS A REFERENCE FOR ORIGINAL COLOR!

The LD and VHS are in the same color palette.
These are the approximate original colors as I saw them in the cinema.
We're not talking about shades of color here. We're talking about colors.
If the original one is a bit lighter, or darker than what's in the LD or VHS, it doesn't matter!
The sure thing is it wasn't like it is in the DVD and Blurays (orange-yellow)!
I saw Beauty and the Beast at the cinema, it was my favourite film, i had seen the TV documentary before that dozens of times, i was collecting photos from magazines with screenshots from the film etc.
ALL were in the same color palette concerning e.g. the sky!

When I got the VHS back in the day right after i saw it at the cinema (actually i first bought a pirated copy that saw 3 times on the same day, and then i purchased the official one when it was released), i didn't notice any difference at all at the colors!

Only when I got the DVD i asked: "What the hell is this?" (and subsequently when i saw the Blurays where they kept the same color palette with the DVD)

i wish i had kept my photos from magazines with production stills to show here.


Do you see the Be our Guest photo i posted above?
it seems like it's a production still and not a screenshot from a VHS or LD or anything.
well, the film was like that.
It was NEVER like this:


of course here, as I've said, we don't have a change of colors (at least in the background lights). They are exactly the same color, but they're missing the shadows that give the film a depth!
This is a deliberate change! It's not an initial error of the medium (in VHs/LD) that was corrected in the DVD and Bluray.

[yumny]

Is it just me, or do these people that are mad about Beauty and the Beast seem to randomly pop up every other month?

Seriously, I suggest you let it go. I think this thread is better dedicated to more recent Blu-Ray releases.

[Freddy2]

What you're saying about the shadows in the beams of light is interesting. To make the discussion more accurate, could you, or anyone else here... make a BD screenshot of the exact frame you posted above, the one with shadows?...

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

The LD and VHS are in the same color palette.

LD & VHS are both low resolution NTSC formats with limited color. VHS extremely so. The color information is literally buried in the signal. The only "reliable" consumer NTSC delivery system was DVD because it was a component signal.

So you don't have any film sources to reference? Only your memories? Even film prints don't fully reproduce what's on the negative.

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by Freddy2

Hello again everyone... and especially Ken!

After reading your Winnie the Pooh review, I would like to say a few things.
First of all, thanks for the excellent review! I read a few things I didn't know yet, for example the effect the DNR had on the live action scene.
But in the end, I think you are a bit harsh on this one and... a lot too mild on Robin Hood.

As an example I made two mini comparisons for Winnie and Robin, based on the screenshots taken by "our" Lnds500!

First The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, Left the DVD - Right the BD:



While I agree that at first, the brightness seems a bit much on the BD, I really can't find any details that are truly lost. Some bright blues are a bit lighter and some greens go a bit to the yellow side, but all surrounding shades are still there, even when some are a bit closer to each other. Quite a few others are actually even further apart and easier to see than before... Look for example at the:

- grass on the left of Christopher Robin's head;
- or the snow on the branches of the right tree.

And when it comes to what the light effect was supposed to be... No matter how difficult "should be" discussions are... When I ask myself whether or not colors and contrast are right, I often imagine to scene and its weather conditions. Both scenes are clearly "shot" with bright sunshine, judging by the shadows. But only the BD shots look sunny. The old ones look like there is bad weather coming in...
And then there was the DNR. While apparently, unfortunately, the live action scene was harmed a bit, no damage whatsoever has been done to the animation. All line detail is there and everything is perfectly sharp, no fuzziness at all! I guess they mastered the DNR process perfectly this time, but of course it is aimed at animation, so logically it has not been optimized for live action. A small price to pay, I would say.
One last note about the AR: while everyone here (could) know I really don't like it when they take away parts of the artistic animation, I must say they have done a good job on this one. Almost no shot looks bad, except for one or two. And as both shots above clearly show, they have done it on a scene per scene basis, as they should.


But now Robin Hood, again Left the DVD - Right the BD:



I'm not sure if I even need to say anything here... Look at the loss of detail in the grass on the BD. Look at the fuzziness of every single line. Look at the loss of detail and shades on the trees. Look at the odd color shift of Marian's robe: once it had four different shades of pink and purple. Now it looks greyish and the robe itself has the same color as her eyes, whereas before they were far far apart. The wanted poster looked like old paper with sharp printing on it. Now it looks flat and out of focus. Not to mention the DNR effect on the wood structure and the loss of contrast in the closet.

I could go on and on, but I won't...
Just my conclusion, that clearly Winnie's restoration is A LOT better than Robin's. Don't you think so too now?...

The framing on the Robin Hood BD is awful.

[Freddy2]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

LD & VHS are both low resolution NTSC formats with limited color. VHS extremely so. The color information is literally buried in the signal.

Just to be accurate: those VHS screenshots are PAL, not NTSC.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

LD & VHS are both low resolution NTSC formats with limited color. VHS extremely so. The color information is literally buried in the signal. The only "reliable" consumer NTSC delivery system was DVD because it was a component signal.

So you don't have any film sources to reference? Only your memories? Even film prints don't fully reproduce what's on the negative.

I didn't say I know what was in the negative!
Yeah, maybe the negative is as in the Bluray.
I only know what I saw in the theaters.
and in the TV documentaries showing the animators' drawings.


But can you explain please the "Be our Guest" scene?
You're claiming that the original negative for that scene is like the Bluray,and then in the film print/VHS/LD/production-stills perfect shadows appeared (due to the limited colors),and then dissappeared again in the DVD/Bluray since they used the original negatives?
well, in that scene it's the Bluray that has the limited colors! Not the VHS/LD! It has wiped-off the shadows.


and I did offer you a reference that is not a screenshot from VHS or LD.
That Be our Guest photo (in post #248) is a production still!
I wish I could find one for the morning scene too.

Did you see the book screenshot comparison of the 2d and 3d Bluray?
You're claiming also that the animators painted originally a pink book?

I can't understand why people can't accept that the colors DID change. Can't they see with their own eyes?

[Freddy2]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

Do you see the Be our Guest photo i posted above?
it seems like it's a production still and not a screenshot from a VHS or LD or anything.
well, the film was like that.
It was NEVER like this:


of course here, as I've said, we don't have a change of colors (at least in the background lights). They are exactly the same color, but they're missing the shadows that give the film a depth!
This is a deliberate change! It's not an initial error of the medium (in VHs/LD) that was corrected in the DVD and Bluray.

Ok, since no exact screenshots were available and I didn't know that scene by heart anymore... I looked through that fragment on the old DVD and the current BD and you're right, they are different. But it was not a deliberate change, it was simply an error, as those beams still have that middle shadow in them throughout the entire scene, before and after that shot, just not during Lumière's closeup. A small mistake, that's it.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by Freddy2

Ok, since no exact screenshots were available and I didn't know that scene by heart anymore... I looked through that fragment on the old DVD and the current BD and you're right, they are different. But it was not a deliberate change, it was simply an error, as those beams still have that middle shadow in them throughout the entire scene, before and after that shot, just not during Lumière's closeup. A small mistake, that's it.

well, a mistake here, a mistake there, and we have the wrong movie!
Anyway, we don't know for sure if it was a mistake or a change.
I just wanted to show that it wasn't a mistake originally of the LD/VHS.

and certainly,this is not a mistake!
every color is as should be except the whites and the sky.
it's like an orange veil on top.
this changes substantially the aesthetics of the film.



I have never seen such radical changes in other movies.
So i guess only the film prints, VHS, and LDs of Beauty and the Beast were wrong, right?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

I have never seen such radical changes in other movies.
So i guess only the film prints, VHS, and LDs of Beauty and the Beast were wrong, right?

Except that isn't a film print.

But yes, the others were wrong. Especially since Blu-ray has exponentially more color information.

[filmmusic]

Anyway, this can go on and on.
I just wanted to say that other studios released re-issues for much less radical color differences and I applaud them:

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/scree...082&position=2
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/scree...82&position=35

if Beauty and the Beast was a horror movie (which we all know classic horror films have a huge fan group),there would be a public outrage on the different colors.
But unfortunately, it isn't.

well, it seems I'll stick with the LD for the rest of my life, where the morning scene is trully a morning scene and not a late afternoon!
I guess the romantic pal colors of the original release didn't suit today's generation so they decided to make a clown-of-a-movie.