A Guide to Turntables

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Richteer,

If you don't mind, I can add this important information to Post #1. It is also a good idea to change the name of the thread to A Guide to Turntables. I can do that for you.

No objection from me--go ahead!

[T-Town Oil]

so after i get tired of jackin with my old sansui 2050 what would be a decent purchase for 6 or 7 hundred bucks

[Johnny Vinyl]

Is that budget for new or used?

If new, a TT from Pro-ject, Rega, Music Hall are good choices. There are many TT manufacturers, but for a quick look at what you can get price-wise, check these places.

Acoustic Sounds

ElusiveDisc

Jerry Raskin's Needle Doctor

John

[Arkadin]

somebody asked about record cleaning--
most serious audiophiles and record collectors only use record cleaning machines like ones made by VPI.
the use of brushes with liquid is not recommended, and I can say I wouldn't recommend using that method either.
It often ruins records by imbedding dust and grit into the grooves, and also just flat out damages the record sometimes.
I used the "brush" methods years ago, but once I got my record cleaning machine I realized how utterly inadequate that method is.
The problem is that the machines cost way much than they really should because there is not enough competition among manufacturers.
VPI has basically had the market cornered forever.
If you are going to be serious about vinyl, however, this type of machine is just as critical as your speakers imo.
good 180 gram vinyl costs too damn much to use simplistic brush cleaning.
one of the least expensive machines--
http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/94...eaning_Machine
the first review sums up everything perfectly--
click on the "reviews" link in the above posted link.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by Arkadin

somebody asked about record cleaning--
most serious audiophiles and record collectors only use record cleaning machines like ones made by VPI.
the use of brushes with liquid is not recommended, and I can say I wouldn't recommend using that method either.
It often ruins records by imbedding dust and grit into the grooves, and also just flat out damages the record sometimes.
I used the "brush" methods years ago, but once I got my record cleaning machine I realized how utterly inadequate that method is.
The problem is that the machines cost way much than they really should because there is not enough competition among manufacturers.
VPI has basically had the market cornered forever.
If you are going to be serious about vinyl, however, this type of machine is just as critical as your speakers imo.
good 180 gram vinyl costs too damn much to use simplistic brush cleaning.
one of the least expensive machines--
http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/94...eaning_Machine
the first review sums up everything perfectly--
click on the "reviews" link in the above posted link.

While I agree that cleaning ones LP's and storing them properly is essential for maintaining a trouble-free collection, having a VPI or Nitty Gritty record-cleaning machine is not the only way to accomplish this. There are other methods, more affordable that do an outstanding job, and may be all that is required.

I wouldn't want the reader to think that by not having a record cleaning machine they are less of an audiophile or serious collector.

John

[DougMac]

Originally Posted by John72953

I wouldn't want the reader to think that by not having a record cleaning machine they are less of an audiophile or serious collector.
John

However, any audiophile or serious collector who hasn't obtained an RCM needs to know how much difference a thorough cleaning can make.

I've had my DIY RCM for a couple of years now. It's based on the VPI vaccum tubes. I started buying records over 50 years ago, before I could even read. I quickly learned the importance of good record care and since I was 8 or so, I've taken meticulous care of my records. I still have almost all the records I've ever bought.

I just played "The History of Otis Redding", which I received as a Christmas gift in 1967. It looked immaculate and I played a cut before cleaning. It as very quiet with no pops from scratches and just light dust noise. Even as clean as it was, it was totally silent once cleaned with my vacuum RCM. I've played similarly clean albums for friends and they just can't believe a record can be that quiet.

I buy thrift shop and garage sale LP's, 45's and 78's which makes a vacuum RCM a must. They all get cleaned before their first play.

I've re-cleaned some 78's that I manually cleaned and thought I'd done a good job. I've been surprised how much more dirt I've removed and how much cleaner the sound gets.

If you own more than a handful of records, you need to consider a vacuum RCM. If you buy records at garage sales or thrift stores an RCM is a must have.

[Arkadin]

good points all around.
while I wasn't trying to necessarily infer that one had to have a RCM to collect and enjoy vinyl, it is a purchase that imo one should consider essential.
If you make a DIY machine from an old vacuum cleaner, then that can be great too.
but if one is going to invest good money towards a TT, a rack, nice speakers, a pre-amp, etc. etc., I feel one needs to be sure to realize that the RCM is just as important imo.
It should be considered part of the cost of "doing vinyl" imo.
and it's an extremely worthwhile cost to incur is what I was trying to get across.

[Johnny Vinyl]

If one can afford to purchase a RCM, then that is the obvious way to go and certainly an investment worth making. I just wanted to point out there are other less expensive alternatives for those who aren't in a position to go for the preferred RCM.

I should also bring up that in Canada the VPI and NG machines are a lot more expensive than in the U.S. and they rarely come up at CanuckAudioMart, which is our Audiogon equivalent.

I should have perhaps clarified that in my first post, because I do agree with both Arkadin and DougMac about the benefits and importance of RCM's.

John

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by John72953

...I should have perhaps clarified that in my first post, because I do agree with both Arkadin and DougMac about the benefits and importance of RCM's.

John

I don't know John, I thought you were pretty clear and to the point.

[U4K61]

On 1877, Thomas Edison records the human voice on a tin foil wrapped cylinder. He later improved on the concept and sold the public on wax cylinders, which was to be the first in a long list of consumer audio formats: The Gramophone (1888), Wire Recorders (1930), Open Reel to Reel, Compact Cassette (1962), 8 Track Cartridge (1965), CD (1982), DAT (1987), MD (1998), MP3 (1989), SACD (1999), DVD-A (2000). It is interesting that while many have gone by the wayside, the LP is still with us. See Media Sales.

Originally Posted by bferr1

Why are manual turntables still produced? I would think that automatic ones would be preferred.

You don't want to go down that road. Long ago we had an automatic with record changer. It was one of the bells and wistles that you get with a cheap system. I was always worried about dirt and scratches from vinyl falling on and laying on top of each other, grinding the junk into the grooves. It would do strange things once in a while. Once, a record came down from the stack onto to the tonearm while it was still playing something else. The clunky arrangemet sometimes dropped two records instead of one. Obviously you are not going to be able to use a record clamp which is to help flatten warps and couple the LP to the platter.

In all honesty, I prefer manaul where you cue the tonearm and lower it on the record. It is part of the fun that goes along with the analogue format, you are just more involved with the process. It's why someone would prefer driving a car with a standard over an automatic transmission. It just has that special feel, that man and machine thing. It's also a simpler design, so there is less chance of something mechanically going wrong. The more expensive turntables are this way. It's one at a time for me.

Some Terms and additions that should be included:

• Acoustic feedback - a runaway loop that feeds on itself getting louder and louder.
• Arm mounting board.
• Cantilever: high-compliance(easily moved), low compliance(stiff, not easily moved).
• Flutter - rapid speed variation.
• Speed accuracy - how close is it to 33 1/3 rpm as well as 45 and 78.
• Syli shapes - conical(widest, least expensive), elliptical(narrower then conical, more expensive), hyperelliptical(narrower then elliptical, more expensive)
• Transducer - converts one type of energy to another, here it is mechanical to electrical.
• Wow - slow speed variation.

Originally Posted by bferr1

Can you please add something about "manual" turntables? Not sure what is meant by that description.

Everything is done by the user.

High End Audio Links

• Basis Audio
• Goldmund Reference 2
• Clear Audio
• Axiss Audio Tourbillion 07
• Avid Acutus Reference
• Continuum Audio Labs

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[dwc_steve]

I bought a Technics SL-QL5 (missing the ground wire) and hooked it up to a receiver my dad had in the garage which is a Pioneer VSX-D209 its digital and the sound is horrible. Then today I bought a Aiwa Px-E850 label says manufactured in April of 1997 with the same sound result. Is there something I need for better sound or should I get a better receiver?

[CasualKiller]

Is it on an actual phono input? A normal Aux will not work, if your amp lacks a phono stage you'll require a stand alone pre amp.

[dwc_steve]

Originally Posted by CasualKiller

Is it on an actual phono input? A normal Aux will not work, if your amp lacks a phono stage you'll require a stand alone pre amp.

There is no phono input located on the back of the receiver. What is a good preamp brand or one you could recommend?

[CasualKiller]

What kind of a budget are you looking at?

[dwc_steve]

A hundred and below for right now

[CasualKiller]

If you go to Needledoctor.com you can get the Audio Techinca PEQ3 for 50 dollars. I heard one of these when we ordered one for Dallas ( arcam_or_bust) and it was a very good pre amp for the money.

[sergmark]

A lot of good information thanks for putting it up.
But I am still confused about MM and MC Cartridges
Is one better than the other ? I know a new guy question ..

[richteer]

Originally Posted by sergmark

A lot of good information thanks for putting it up.
But I am still confused about MM and MC Cartridges
Is one better than the other ? I know a new guy question ..

I'll keep this brief and hopefully simple!

If you have a magnet inside a coil of wire, and then move that magnet, an electrical current will be created (induced). The stylus traces the record's groove, wiggling about. A MM cartridge has little magnets on the end of the cantelever and coils of wire in the cartridge body. In an MC cartridge, the arrangement is reversed: the coils are on the end of the cantelever and the magnets are fixed inside the cartridge body.

Coils of wire have a lower mass than magnets, so MC cartridges tend to be more adept at capturing fine details.

There are good and not-so-god examples of each type, but MC cartridges are, as a rule, better than MM ones. The flip side is that MC cartridges have a much lower output voltage, so more demands are made on the phono preamp: it needs more gain and lower noise. Typical MM carts output about 5mV; MC carts are usually about 0.5mV.

A compromise can be found in the high output MC cartridges, which is probably what I'd shop for in the $400-ish price range.

[sergmark]

Hey Rich,
Thanks for taking the time to explain the difference for the simple mind I have
I believe the new cartridge that comes with my player is a MC type. My Pioneer does not have a phono input and my Sony does thats why I order the Bellari Phono preamp to cover either one. I am not sure which I'm going to use yet.

Steve

[rarredoa]

If I understood the original post correctly, a basic turntable like Audio Techinca ATLP60, attenuates highs and boosts lows in order to be able to pre-out to receivers without phono inputs?

If so, does a phono pre-amp flatten the response to replicate the original recording?