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Old 05-21-2014, 02:27 AM   #141
Drewbee87 Drewbee87 is offline
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You didn't have to give me a lecture about how great Buffy is theprestige85, I'm a huge fan of the show. I've lost count of how many times I've watched the show from start to finish.
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Old 05-21-2014, 06:08 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige85 View Post
I'm glad the show didn't end with The Gift, either. But only because I felt that Buffy had 2-3 more seasons left after it. Going by your comment, it seems like you feel that seasons 6 and 7 are as strong as the earlier seasons? Or is it just that Chosen does it for you as a finale??
No no no, I don't lump seasons 6 and 7 together. Again, just me on this island...

To me, seasons 4-6 are pretty much in the same boat. I think they're horrible seasons with good to great aspects/episodes. I think they really go off the rails thematically and devalue Buffy herself. Someday I'll post a long explanation of sorts with examples, but not until after a rewatch and even then I do still love Buffy and part of me just doesn't want to go into detail about the things I don't like about the show.

I'll just talk a little bit about The Gift. A couple big things working against it for me is I hate Dawn (except for parts of season 7) and never really bought the whole Key story or Glory. A lot of people hate Dawn, but still love The Gift, I'm aware. I understand the Key story, I was just never into it probably because I hate Dawn. Glory is a god. A GOD. But she rarely ever FEELS like it to me unless they're specifically reminding us and even then not always. Let's go back to season 3. We know the Mayor is a very old and powerful demon and the ascension is all about becoming a pure demon. He barely has to do anything remarkable, but every one of his scenes, even his sweet ones with Faith, have an undeniable tension because they've made you (me) believe in him. I just never got that from Glory. I don't blame it on the actress either. I love that moment when Buffy shows up all cocky to fight Glory. But it's the Buffybot. And that shot goes in the credits for seasons 6 & 7 I think. Devalued. Buffy does have moments in that episode, but I'm just talking about detractors. So for me in that finale the Buffybot steals some of her gl-...thunder...then Buffy sacrifices herself (in full on crucifix pose no less) to save a character I hate and don't believe in (and the world) from a god I don't believe in. It just doesn't work for me, she deserves better.

Again, I know I'm in this alone, I don't need to be told how wrong I am.
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Old 05-21-2014, 06:45 AM   #143
theprestige85 theprestige85 is offline
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You didn't have to give me a lecture about how great Buffy is theprestige85, I'm a huge fan of the show. I've lost count of how many times I've watched the show from start to finish.
Hiya Drewbee, mate. That wasn't all aimed at you, mate. I guess that was aimed at the people who are unaware of the show as well as the detractors who don't understand it's power.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:51 AM   #144
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If you've read any behind the scenes stuff... it's interesting how different things could have been.

The Glory season 5:
[Show spoiler]Multiple things here... Originally the episode where Willow was pissed at Glory for what had happened with Tara... originally Willow was going to kill Glory here and the rest of season 5 would have been the Willow-gone-bad arc. But by the time they got into season 5, they liked Glory and didn't want to send Willow off the rails yet... so they pushed that off until season 6.

Also... it would have been Oz that Glory messed with, and he would have been killed... but Seth Green had already left the show a couple of seasons earlier... which lead to Tara... and they so liked Amber Benson that they decided not to kill her but to have Glory mess her up instead... so the death-of-the-significant-other story also got pushed into season 6 and still was the catalyst for Willow going off the rails.


Season 6:
[Show spoiler]The chief problem here, I think, is that everyone severely underestimated what pulling Giles away from the show would do. A lot of meandering in the middle of the season wouldn't have been quite so disjointed with the normal Giles stuff interspersed. They eventually realized this and retooled and brought Giles back for the final episodes of the season, and had him be a key player in the final season as well even though he wasn't in as many episodes as previously.


Season 7:
[Show spoiler]Several bits were tweaked after Firefly was canceled prematurely and Whedon wanted to find homes for his actors. Some found their way into Angel plots... and others found their way into Buffy. I have no idea how things would have been different if Firefly had not been canned. The preacher character of Nathan Fillian would either have not existed or been completely different with another actor.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:27 AM   #145
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Caleb was a masterstroke either way, though. The First was an interesting concept but kinda abstract, and the Uber-vamp and the Bringers were just minions, as intriguing as they were. Giving the First a "representative" and a proper, strong villain was a good move (if left a bit late).
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:15 AM   #146
#Darren #Darren is offline
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Lots of weak elements in the final seasons IMO but I still love the show.

I was told Anthony Stewart Head aka Rupert Giles wanted time off the show to go back to England to spend time with his family? I was under the impression leaving and coming back was some sort of extended break from the show?
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:24 PM   #147
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Season 7 is one of my top fav seasons. Beneath You, Same Time, Same Place, Help, Him, Conversations with Dead People, Sleeper, The Killer in Me, Lies My Parents Told Me, & Chosen are some of the best episodes of the series IMO.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:53 PM   #148
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I don't have a favorite season because I like all of them. Each season has episodes I like and some I don't that are too much to list.

I didn't get to finally see the show until the 4th season because the WB wasn't available for me yet. I preordered the fist season dvd when it came out and got the S1 DVD poster which I still have. Although the bottom got ripped a little since then while I stored it away.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:24 PM   #149
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Lots of weak elements in the final seasons IMO but I still love the show.

I was told Anthony Stewart Head aka Rupert Giles wanted time off the show to go back to England to spend time with his family? I was under the impression leaving and coming back was some sort of extended break from the show?
That's my understanding as well... he wasn't "sacked" but rather it was a mutual decision to give the actor a break... but after the fact, everyone involved freely admitted that they had sorely underestimated the importance of Giles to the series... so they were very glad to get him back again.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:50 PM   #150
theprestige85 theprestige85 is offline
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I'll just talk a little bit about The Gift. A couple big things working against it for me is I hate Dawn (except for parts of season 7) and never really bought the whole Key story or Glory. A lot of people hate Dawn, but still love The Gift, I'm aware. I understand the Key story, I was just never into it probably because I hate Dawn. Glory is a god. A GOD. But she rarely ever FEELS like it to me unless they're specifically reminding us and even then not always. Let's go back to season 3. We know the Mayor is a very old and powerful demon and the ascension is all about becoming a pure demon. He barely has to do anything remarkable, but every one of his scenes, even his sweet ones with Faith, have an undeniable tension because they've made you (me) believe in him. I just never got that from Glory. I don't blame it on the actress either. I love that moment when Buffy shows up all cocky to fight Glory. But it's the Buffybot. And that shot goes in the credits for seasons 6 & 7 I think. Devalued. Buffy does have moments in that episode, but I'm just talking about detractors. So for me in that finale the Buffybot steals some of her gl-...thunder...then Buffy sacrifices herself (in full on crucifix pose no less) to save a character I hate and don't believe in (and the world) from a god I don't believe in. It just doesn't work for me, she deserves better.
Well that's fair enough, mate. I can't agree with your views but I certainly appreciate that you've taken the time out to express them on here.

Like I said before, Chosen is a fine episode within itself. I guess my main issue with your comment was how you used the words 'much better' which suggested that you felt that The Gift was weak when in fact, like many many Buffy episodes, that episode could easily have been a satisfying 2hr plus film. And like I said, I feel it has many more poignant scenes in it than almost every other season finale. But yeah, that's why I like threads like these, so that we get differing views
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:01 PM   #151
theprestige85 theprestige85 is offline
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If you've read any behind the scenes stuff... it's interesting how different things could have been.

The Glory season 5: [SPOILER]Multiple things here... Originally the episode where Willow was pissed at Glory for what had happened with Tara... originally Willow was going to kill Glory here and the rest of season 5 would have been the Willow-gone-bad arc. But by the time they got into season 5, they liked Glory and didn't want to send Willow off the rails yet... so they pushed that off until season 6.
I didn't know that about season 5. I'm glad they didn't go that direction though as that surely would have a bit too much what with Dawn, Joyce's illness AND Riley's departure. I'm also not a fan of turning Willow dark in general. One of Buffy's closets allies turning against her and the world was something that was done before before with chilling effect. There were also not many consequences of Willow's descent, just a catalyst. If you present an extreme disequilibrium for the characters and their worlds, then there SHOULD be some severe consequences.

How many people remember the rumoured finale of season 5 a few weeks prior to it's air date? There was meant to be a massive cross over with Angel in which The Angel Investigations go to Sunnydale in order to help Buffy and The Scoobies take on Glory in her purest form in her hell dimension. It was supposedly to be a star studded episode that was to be extended to about an hour and a half, or so various magazines said. I was incredibly excited for that, I admit, and was a bit gutted that didn't happen as that sounded like it could have been quite the episode. Though thinking about it now, it probably would have been incredibly expensive to do the episode justice.
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:17 PM   #152
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Caleb was a masterstroke either way, though. The First was an interesting concept but kinda abstract, and the Uber-vamp and the Bringers were just minions, as intriguing as they were. Giving the First a "representative" and a proper, strong villain was a good move (if left a bit late).
It's hard to tell if Caleb was written late in or planned from the start. Going the the info HDMEE gave us, he was probably written late and FOR Mr Fillion. Still, he was a decent character if 2 dimensional compared to other Buffy villains, though that's not necessarily a bad thing since we had so many complex antagonists that it was almost refreshing to have one that didn't come with any baggage or tragic backstory. He is absolute in that sense, existing as a catalyst for all the 'orrible shite that happens during the final days of Sunnydale.

The First is an interesting, potentially disturbing notion indeed. I think some of the most effective moments with The First is when it presents itself as Buffy herself. In symbolic and thematic terms, you could argue that much of the season is centred on Buffy fighting herself, this cold, detached, demonic version of herself which The First takes form. I wish that was something that was explored more often and it probably would have made for a better season than it was, abstract or not.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:33 PM   #153
Tyger Tyger is offline
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I would have greatly preferred that alternate season 5 or even that alternate finale.
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:56 AM   #154
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I wouldn't. To be honest I have no real issues with almost any development in the entire series, with the possible sole exception of Tara's death, which - while I certainly understand the dramatic rationale for it - did leave a noticeable hole that Kennedy failed to fill IMHO.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:37 AM   #155
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I will further alienate myself by saying I prefer Kennedy and never liked Tara. I like Kennedy, but as far as Willow's love life goes, nobody holds a candle to Oz.

I still wish they moved Seth Green to Angel where he could have much more to do instead of losing him completely.
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:29 AM   #156
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Each time I go through the entirety of both Buffy and Angel I find myself liking how the characters turned out at the end of Buffy less and less. I also hate all of season four of Angel so much that season five starts out better but goes off the rails again. I know they had to change things because of the cancellation but I just don't like how any of them ended up in the end.

Also the way Buffy was treated by everyone at the end of season seven was absurd and out of nowhere. If I was her I would have told them to all get f*ucked, grabbed Spike (and possibly Andrew) and let Sunnydale get swallowed whole and gone to LA to help Angel and that crew fight the First.
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Old 05-23-2014, 04:03 PM   #157
theprestige85 theprestige85 is offline
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Each time I go through the entirety of both Buffy and Angel I find myself liking how the characters turned out at the end of Buffy less and less. I also hate all of season four of Angel so much that season five starts out better but goes off the rails again. I know they had to change things because of the cancellation but I just don't like how any of them ended up in the end.
Hmm, Angel season 4 is arguably the weakest season of the series. It's so unnecessarily convoluted and filled with odd plotting. It's funny, the arc in season 5 had to modified halfway through the season when the got news that the show wasn't being renewed, yet the last quarter still feels natural and organic and the conclusion felt right whereas you'd think that the show got cancelled in season 4 given the irrational and odd plotting.

That said, I love that show almost as much as Buffy as it happens to be even more cinematic and expand on the adult and complex themes that are present in Buffy. It wasn't for everybody, but still a hell of a show and up there with the best of them. If it wasn't for that dodgy 4th (and to a lesser extent 3rd) season, i'd award the show a full 5 stars.

What's everybody's top 2 characters in the Buffyverse and why??
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Old 05-23-2014, 04:15 PM   #158
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I would like to have seen how Angel would have turned out had it not been canceled. At the time of its cancellation, Angel was doing well in the ratings, and it would have been renewed, but Joss Whedon wanted the announcement in like February, so the WB decided just to cancel it. I've heard that had he waited until May, it would have been renewed for a sixth season.

I also seem to recall that had Angel gone on to a sixth season, Oz would have returned to the show to help Nina learn how to control her werewolf. Even though Angel is a different show, I usually add it in when I watch Buffy. I like to think of it as an additional five seasons to the buffyverse. I also love how much depth they gave Wesley, who could have easily just been a one-season character in Buffy season 3.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:52 PM   #159
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I would like to have seen how Angel would have turned out had it not been canceled. At the time of its cancellation, Angel was doing well in the ratings, and it would have been renewed, but Joss Whedon wanted the announcement in like February, so the WB decided just to cancel it. I've heard that had he waited until May, it would have been renewed for a sixth season.

I also seem to recall that had Angel gone on to a sixth season, Oz would have returned to the show to help Nina learn how to control her werewolf. Even though Angel is a different show, I usually add it in when I watch Buffy. I like to think of it as an additional five seasons to the buffyverse. I also love how much depth they gave Wesley, who could have easily just been a one-season character in Buffy season 3.
Interesting. I was led to believe that WB just decided to cancel it for no reason whatsoever. Still a dodgy thing to do but the truth doesn't exactly put Whedon in a good light. Why couldn't he wait until May?

I can imagine Seth Green popping up for the occasional special guest role on either Buffy or Angel but I don't think he would have been up for being a full time cast member again. If I remember correctly, he really wanted to concentrate on films at the time, right?

I also heard that if Angel had gone to a 6th season, it would have been set during The Apocalypse that we saw a glimpse of during the final min of the season 5 finale. That would have been interesting.

Agreed about Wes. Him and Cordelia, along with Willow, went through the most dramatic changes throughout the Buffyverse. Only problem with Cordelia is they messed her up during season 4 and made her uninteresting. But Wes' development was fantastic. The range of emotions he goes through on Angel are exhausting from the stiff upper lip incompetent Brit with inferiority complexes to a bitter, increasingly violent rogue with father issues. Wesley is, arguably, the most fleshed out character of the Buffyverse. He's not my favourite, but he's definitely got all these dimensions that were fun to see explored.
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:22 PM   #160
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Interesting. I was led to believe that WB just decided to cancel it for no reason whatsoever. Still a dodgy thing to do but the truth doesn't exactly put Whedon in a good light. Why couldn't he wait until May?

I can imagine Seth Green popping up for the occasional special guest role on either Buffy or Angel but I don't think he would have been up for being a full time cast member again. If I remember correctly, he really wanted to concentrate on films at the time, right?

I also heard that if Angel had gone to a 6th season, it would have been set during The Apocalypse that we saw a glimpse of during the final min of the season 5 finale. That would have been interesting.

Agreed about Wes. Him and Cordelia, along with Willow, went through the most dramatic changes throughout the Buffyverse. Only problem with Cordelia is they messed her up during season 4 and made her uninteresting. But Wes' development was fantastic. The range of emotions he goes through on Angel are exhausting from the stiff upper lip incompetent Brit with inferiority complexes to a bitter, increasingly violent rogue with father issues. Wesley is, arguably, the most fleshed out character of the Buffyverse. He's not my favourite, but he's definitely got all these dimensions that were fun to see explored.
With Angel's ratings up, Joss Whedon decided to push for an early renewal. He wanted to map out the rest of season 5 and set things up for season 6. Every year the WB would wait until May to announce Angel's renewal and the cast and crew would pass up on other jobs because they hoped Angel would continue. However, the WB had a number of pilots that year, and since Whedon was wanting an answer early on, the WB decided to just cancel the show.

The Oz storyline may have been something that Whedon was hoping would happen in season 6, had it came to pass. Whether or not Seth Green was available, I'm sure they would have figured those details out once Angel was renewed.

As for Cordelia, I heard that her pregnancy really changed the direction of season 4, but I don't remember what the original plan was.
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