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Old 05-23-2014, 08:26 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by theprestige85 View Post
Interesting. I was led to believe that WB just decided to cancel it for no reason whatsoever. Still a dodgy thing to do but the truth doesn't exactly put Whedon in a good light. Why couldn't he wait until May?

I can imagine Seth Green popping up for the occasional special guest role on either Buffy or Angel but I don't think he would have been up for being a full time cast member again. If I remember correctly, he really wanted to concentrate on films at the time, right?

I also heard that if Angel had gone to a 6th season, it would have been set during The Apocalypse that we saw a glimpse of during the final min of the season 5 finale. That would have been interesting.

Agreed about Wes. Him and Cordelia, along with Willow, went through the most dramatic changes throughout the Buffyverse. Only problem with Cordelia is they messed her up during season 4 and made her uninteresting. But Wes' development was fantastic. The range of emotions he goes through on Angel are exhausting from the stiff upper lip incompetent Brit with inferiority complexes to a bitter, increasingly violent rogue with father issues. Wesley is, arguably, the most fleshed out character of the Buffyverse. He's not my favourite, but he's definitely got all these dimensions that were fun to see explored.
I read that for season 6 they were also planning on bringing Fred back, so Amy Acker would have had a dual role with Illyria and Fred. That could have been fun. I wish they wouldn't have messed Cordelia up so much, as she was one of the best things about the early seasons.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:29 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by theprestige85 View Post
Hmm, Angel season 4 is arguably the weakest season of the series. It's so unnecessarily convoluted and filled with odd plotting. It's funny, the arc in season 5 had to modified halfway through the season when the got news that the show wasn't being renewed, yet the last quarter still feels natural and organic and the conclusion felt right whereas you'd think that the show got cancelled in season 4 given the irrational and odd plotting.

That said, I love that show almost as much as Buffy as it happens to be even more cinematic and expand on the adult and complex themes that are present in Buffy. It wasn't for everybody, but still a hell of a show and up there with the best of them. If it wasn't for that dodgy 4th (and to a lesser extent 3rd) season, i'd award the show a full 5 stars.

What's everybody's top 2 characters in the Buffyverse and why??
Season 4 of Angel was just terrible IMO. It was just too dark, didn't really go anywhere (the Cordelia amnesia arc went on way too long) and became borderline creepy with the adult!Connor/Cordelia (Jasmine) sexytimes. Though the season was saved by the Season finale.

But damn, I definitely missed Lilah in Season 5.
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Old 05-24-2014, 03:50 AM   #163
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I would like to have seen how Angel would have turned out had it not been canceled. At the time of its cancellation, Angel was doing well in the ratings, and it would have been renewed, but Joss Whedon wanted the announcement in like February, so the WB decided just to cancel it. I've heard that had he waited until May, it would have been renewed for a sixth season.

I also seem to recall that had Angel gone on to a sixth season, Oz would have returned to the show to help Nina learn how to control her werewolf. Even though Angel is a different show, I usually add it in when I watch Buffy. I like to think of it as an additional five seasons to the buffyverse. I also love how much depth they gave Wesley, who could have easily just been a one-season character in Buffy season 3.
I know it makes me sick in my gut the way Angel got cancelled. Wesley was the best thing about that show!
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Old 05-24-2014, 04:45 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theprestige85 View Post
Interesting. I was led to believe that WB just decided to cancel it for no reason whatsoever. Still a dodgy thing to do but the truth doesn't exactly put Whedon in a good light. Why couldn't he wait until May?

I can imagine Seth Green popping up for the occasional special guest role on either Buffy or Angel but I don't think he would have been up for being a full time cast member again. If I remember correctly, he really wanted to concentrate on films at the time, right?

I also heard that if Angel had gone to a 6th season, it would have been set during The Apocalypse that we saw a glimpse of during the final min of the season 5 finale. That would have been interesting.

Agreed about Wes. Him and Cordelia, along with Willow, went through the most dramatic changes throughout the Buffyverse. Only problem with Cordelia is they messed her up during season 4 and made her uninteresting. But Wes' development was fantastic. The range of emotions he goes through on Angel are exhausting from the stiff upper lip incompetent Brit with inferiority complexes to a bitter, increasingly violent rogue with father issues. Wesley is, arguably, the most fleshed out character of the Buffyverse. He's not my favourite, but he's definitely got all these dimensions that were fun to see explored.
Cordelia was actually supposed to be the Big Bad of season 4, but she got pregnant and couldn't do all the stunts she would've had to. Not only that, but I've heard she actually waited to tell Joss so he had to rework the season and was not happy with her. The way she's treated all season, I believe it. I think season 4 starts out pretty good though, that devil looking demon and the sky raining fire was badass.
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Old 05-24-2014, 06:16 AM   #165
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Cordelia was actually supposed to be the Big Bad of season 4, but she got pregnant and couldn't do all the stunts she would've had to. Not only that, but I've heard she actually waited to tell Joss so he had to rework the season and was not happy with her. The way she's treated all season, I believe it. I think season 4 starts out pretty good though, that devil looking demon and the sky raining fire was badass.
Yeah... I gather Charisma Carpenter didn't want to be the big bad, so I had read somewhere that she intentionally waited to tell Joss about her pregnancy... she didn't want Cordelia to be dragged through the mud like that... so I think they then were trying to one-up each other as they really wrote Cordelia into a dark corner.

The pregnancy then made it so she couldn't be the big bad... and here is where Joss worked some more of his "what do I do with my Firefly actors" magic... and brought in Gina Torres to finish off the season as the bigger bad... and they very unceremoniously killed off Cordelia.

I gather there must have been some fence mending that happened the next year, though, since they did bring back Cordelia for a more cordial goodbye episode.
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Old 05-24-2014, 06:37 AM   #166
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Interesting, I never thought of Charisma not wanting to be the Big Bad. Makes sense though, but it's kind of annoying. Like Amber Benson not coming back for Conversations With Dead People.
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Old 05-24-2014, 06:42 AM   #167
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I absolutely LOVED season 4 of Angel, so much it's my #1 favorite season of the series.
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Old 05-24-2014, 03:31 PM   #168
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As for Cordelia, I heard that her pregnancy really changed the direction of season 4, but I don't remember what the original plan was.
Ah yes, I remember now, yeah, the pregnancy of Carpenter was a thing a of contention back then, how could I forget.

Quote:
I read that for season 6 they were also planning on bringing Fred back, so Amy Acker would have had a dual role with Illyria and Fred. That could have been fun. I wish they wouldn't have messed Cordelia up so much, as she was one of the best things about the early seasons.
Hmm, i'm not so sure I would have liked to see that. I'd rather they just kept key cast members dead or reincarnated or something as it does become a bit silly if something like that's done too often. I'm sure in practice it would have been feasible, but on paper, i'm not sure sure. Though it would have certainly given Acker a lot work to do!

Quote:
Season 4 of Angel was just terrible IMO. It was just too dark, didn't really go anywhere (the Cordelia amnesia arc went on way too long) and became borderline creepy with the adult!Connor/Cordelia (Jasmine) sexytimes. Though the season was saved by the Season finale.

But damn, I definitely missed Lilah in Season 5.
The dark stuff wasn't an issue for me at all. I love dark, dark is sexy and alluring. Just have everything make sense by the conclusion is all I ask, and we didn't get that. To this day I do not know why
[Show spoiler]Angelus killed The Beast to bring back the sun; How Cordelia became some sort of evil; Why/How Wesley even got back into the group's good books after his betrayal, why Angelus wasn't at all scary like was he was in Buffy season 2, and why the group even needed Angelus back in the first place!!
And the less said about the Jasmine storyline, the better.

I missed Lilah, too. I thought that Stephanie Ramonov did some nicely textured work there, especially in her scenes with Denisof. Plus she had a good pair of legs
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Old 05-24-2014, 03:40 PM   #169
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Cordelia was actually supposed to be the Big Bad of season 4, but she got pregnant and couldn't do all the stunts she would've had to. Not only that, but I've heard she actually waited to tell Joss so he had to rework the season and was not happy with her. The way she's treated all season, I believe it. I think season 4 starts out pretty good though, that devil looking demon and the sky raining fire was badass.
Yeah, I don't like the idea of Cordelia being the Big Bad of the season especially since simultaneously, it's parent show had their secondary cast member become the big bad, too. (Buffy season 6 and Angel season 3 aired at the same time) so in hindsight, I am glad it turned out the way it turned it, even if it was a lacklustre season.

I'll give you that about season 4, though, there were some SPECTACULAR action/effects sequences throughout, and it might be the seasons most redeeming feature. That fight where
[Show spoiler] The Beast stabs Angel in the neck with his own stake
is really well crafted.


Quote:
I gather there must have been some fence mending that happened the next year, though, since they did bring back Cordelia for a more cordial goodbye episode.
They HAD to bring her back, make up or not. She's too long established and too much of a fan favourite not to give her a proper goodbye. I wasn't a major fan of the character, but I appreciated her development as I did Wesley's. 'You're Welcome' is a fitting end to the character and a wonderful episode to what, imo, was a great season.
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Old 05-24-2014, 08:46 PM   #170
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To this day I do not know why
[Show spoiler]Angelus killed The Beast to bring back the sun; How Cordelia became some sort of evil; Why/How Wesley even got back into the group's good books after his betrayal, why Angelus wasn't at all scary like was he was in Buffy season 2, and why the group even needed Angelus back in the first place!!
And the less said about the Jasmine storyline, the better.
I can offer a few random thoughts:

[Show spoiler]The "need" for Angelus got me too. It made no sense given what had come before... that Angel/Angelus was always "there" and knew what the other did... so it never made sense for Angelus to know something that Angel wouldn't know. *I* thought that part of the story would have worked better IF Angelus didn't know anything, but that it was all a ruse just to get Angelus running around causing havoc.

Meanwhile... Angelus really didn't cause any havoc. That was a huge letdown. He did more in a single episode on Buffy than he did on the whole arc on Angel here as Angelus.

Angelus killing the beast... that worked for me actually. It's the Joss Whedon humor... Angelus was actually in that instant causing the havoc he was meant to cause, BUT with a twist... that the havoc he caused was for the big bad and actually helped out the heroes by accident!

Wesley should never have been out of the group. The group really let him down on that one. The group ignored him in his downward spiral of obsession to disprove the prophecy... and he felt isolated and alone, especially once Fred + Gunn hooked up. So Wesley wanted to save the baby... and he was tricked... and almost died... and the whole group left him hanging. I get Angel being mad... but the rest of the group should have been more helpful to Wesley.

The plus side... is it let Wesley really grow into his own in a way that he wasn't able to do as part of the group. Wesley became a much stronger and complex character. So it made sense to me that he was the one who saved/found Angel... and it made sense for Angel to come to peace with Wesley and that was the only barrier to bringing him back into the group.


As for Jasmine... there's an early season Angel episode where they talk about the Jasmine growing outside. I always figure that was a case of the usual Whedon "move" for mining throwaway lines in old episodes and creating a plot around them.

I love Gina Torres... but, that Jasmine arc never really worked for me... although, that said... the Jasmine arc was MUCH improved over the "bad Cordelia" arc.
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Old 05-24-2014, 08:57 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige85 View Post
They HAD to bring her back, make up or not. She's too long established and too much of a fan favourite not to give her a proper goodbye. I wasn't a major fan of the character, but I appreciated her development as I did Wesley's. 'You're Welcome' is a fitting end to the character and a wonderful episode to what, imo, was a great season.
Supposedly, Buffy was supposed to be in Angel's 100th episode, but Gellar was shooting the Grudge in Japan, so wasn't available.

But I'm glad Cordelia was the focus. She was one of my favorite characters on Buffy, and was so bummed when she left to go on Angel (though she was still awesome there).

I always felt Anya was a poor man's Cordelia.
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Old 05-24-2014, 09:45 PM   #172
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I always felt Anya was a poor man's Cordelia.
Agreed! I think the concept behind her character was interesting, but in execution she just came off as very annoying and got old pretty quickly for me.
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Old 05-25-2014, 06:39 AM   #173
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Anya started out as a poor man's Cordelia, but she evolved into a really fun and interesting character to me. I love her journey of (re)learning humanity. I think she has some of the best and most honest lines in The Body as well.
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Old 05-25-2014, 06:56 AM   #174
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Angel S4 started off really good but the latter part of the season lost me. Other than Buffy S4, it might be my least favorite season in the Buffyverse. Angel S5 was amazing though. As for Anya, she's my favorite Buffy character.
[Show spoiler]It's a shame her death was so quick and barely even mentioned in Season 8.
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:25 AM   #175
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Total opposite of me again, I'm afraid. Anya>Cordelia. Way funnier, way more interesting.
Never liked Cordelia very much, nor thought much of Charisma Carpenter as an actress. She was thoroughly convincing as the airhead, but when they tried to give her "depth" in Angel... not so much IMHO.
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Old 05-25-2014, 10:48 AM   #176
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Can't believe Dollhouse is on Blu-ray and not Buffy
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Old 05-25-2014, 01:26 PM   #177
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I can offer a few random thoughts:

[Show spoiler]The "need" for Angelus got me too. It made no sense given what had come before... that Angel/Angelus was always "there" and knew what the other did... so it never made sense for Angelus to know something that Angel wouldn't know. *I* thought that part of the story would have worked better IF Angelus didn't know anything, but that it was all a ruse just to get Angelus running around causing havoc.

Meanwhile... Angelus really didn't cause any havoc. That was a huge letdown. He did more in a single episode on Buffy than he did on the whole arc on Angel here as Angelus.

Angelus killing the beast... that worked for me actually. It's the Joss Whedon humor... Angelus was actually in that instant causing the havoc he was meant to cause, BUT with a twist... that the havoc he caused was for the big bad and actually helped out the heroes by accident!

Wesley should never have been out of the group. The group really let him down on that one. The group ignored him in his downward spiral of obsession to disprove the prophecy... and he felt isolated and alone, especially once Fred + Gunn hooked up. So Wesley wanted to save the baby... and he was tricked... and almost died... and the whole group left him hanging. I get Angel being mad... but the rest of the group should have been more helpful to Wesley.

The plus side... is it let Wesley really grow into his own in a way that he wasn't able to do as part of the group. Wesley became a much stronger and complex character. So it made sense to me that he was the one who saved/found Angel... and it made sense for Angel to come to peace with Wesley and that was the only barrier to bringing him back into the group.


.
Hmm, I like how you interpreted
[Show spoiler]Angelus' killing the beast as a Whedonian moment. Thanks a bit more easier to stomach if I think about it that way. If they had supplemented that with Angelus actually killing innocents (his favourite hobby) then i'd have been satisfied. I find it awfully convenient that 'The Most Vicious Creature' that The Master had ever met would go a good few weeks without killing anybody but the big apocalyptic baddie.It's like you said, mate, he did far more in Buffy, always killing and/or torturing his victims per episode, often violently. I'll never forget how blunt and raw
[Show spoiler]Jenny Calender's death was in Passions. Even worse is what he did with the body afterwards.
THAT'S Angelus. Not the annoying TV show host with corny one liners. Annoying!

I do agree with your views on the Wesley angle. It was rather odd that the rest of the group had shunned him the way they did. Gunn was the worst offender, though, using every opportunity to talk down to Wesley, but in hindsight, it was probably more to do with his insecurities regarding Fred. Actually, I take that back, Cordelia was the worst since she'd known Wesley the longest out of everybody and was apathetic to his removal of the team. The fractions did allow Wesley to grow more in various ways, you are right, but yeah, he should have at least one person from the group showing his a bit more sympathy.

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Old 05-25-2014, 01:35 PM   #178
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Supposedly, Buffy was supposed to be in Angel's 100th episode, but Gellar was shooting the Grudge in Japan, so wasn't available.

But I'm glad Cordelia was the focus. She was one of my favorite characters on Buffy, and was so bummed when she left to go on Angel (though she was still awesome there).

.
Ah yes, I remember now. Yeah, seeing Gellar as Buffy would have been a nice touch, but it still worked out well like you said. She was able to grow on Angel the way she couldn't on Buffy. The cast were too dynamic and too strong for Cordelia to really develop in a way that most would have liked. She'd have gotten lost in the shuffle, like Xander.

Quote:
I always felt Anya was a poor man's Cordelia.
This is a tricky one. On one hand you have what's, on paper, an obvious replacement for Cordelia. It's blatant and a bit unconfident of the show. On the other hand, there are sporadic moments of characterisations that feel very unique to Anya, like her attention grabbing scene in the The Body, however the character is too inconsistent, too odd and just too schizophrenically written for me to really form a strong opinion on her. By the way, that's certainly not a reflection on Emma Caulfield's talents as an actor (and she IS talented), it's just I don't think even the writers understood what make of Anya.
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Old 05-25-2014, 01:37 PM   #179
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Can't believe Dollhouse is on Blu-ray and not Buffy
Give it time, my friend. Give it time.
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:11 PM   #180
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I never saw Anya as a replacement for Cordelia. I guess maybe she could be interpreted that way... but I don't see it.

When the show started, Cordelia was the "cool" kid, Buffy was the "weirdo", and Xander + Willow were the nerds...

As the show evolved, however, Buffy became the hero... Cordelia mellowed and basically switched from the old cool group to the new cool group... Willow became cool... and Xander kind of meandered. Just when you thought he was becoming an adult and part of the cool team, he would do something juvenile that set him back two spots.

So anyway... by the time they added Anya, I saw her more as the geek/nerd who desperately wanted to fit in... which was never what Cordelia was about. Cordelia ALWAYS fit in... she was cool when Buffy was not... but when Buffy became cool, Cordelia switched to team-Buffy to stay cool.

Cordelia was always the cool one... she made sure of it!

Anya was always the outcast... she became a demon because of being an outcast... was an outcast as a demon... and was an outcast trying to learn to be human again. She was basically what all of the "scoobies" were in season one... trying to find out who she was and make her own path and trying to "hang" with the cool kids.
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