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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Displays > Display Theory and Discussion

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Old 04-27-2019, 07:15 PM   #1301
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Commercial movie theaters for over 100 years, 100% of the time have always used projectors (however that is now changing with 46.2 feet wide LED flat panels offered in some commercial movie theaters around the world)

For over a century, every time someone purchased a movie ticket at a commercial movie theater, there was always some type of projector being used to flash the image on the screen. In the old days it was 35mm, and 70mm film projectors being used. Then later on DLP and LCOS digital projectors replaced film projectors by using digital 2K and 4K files from a secure hard drive server.



Therefore, for over 100 years there has always been some type of projector being used in commercial movie theaters. However, that is no longer the case, as some commercial movie theaters around the world are starting to use wall style flat panel screens that are 46.2 feet wide. On page 8 of the April 2019 Widescreen Review magazine there is an article called “Samsung Continues To Redefine The Movie Theater Experience With Onyx Cinema LED Screen Expansion”. These new 46.2 feet wide LED screens are 4K quality with HDR technology. Samsung claims that the picture quality performance and reliability of their new 4K Onyx Cinema LED Screen Expansion is better than most projectors used in commercial movie theaters.


Over the next 30 years as flat panel technology improves commercial movie theaters well slowly start to replace their projectors with some type of 46.2 feet or 70 feet flat panel screen. I hope that in the years to come companies like LG or Samsung may start making OLED style 4K flat panels with a minimum screen size of 46.2 feet. It might be another 50+ years before all commercial movie theaters convert their projectors to some type of flat panel screen. However the performance and cost of the flat panel needs to be better than the projector for that to happen. Therefore as long as projectors offer a better picture quality and are cheaper then flat panels, in theory there should always be a market for projectors in commercial movie theaters (Dolby Cinema and IMAX theaters with dual 4K Christine projectors still offer the best picture quality over any LED flat panel technology on the market). I realize projectors have become a niche market in the average persons home, however it’s the opposite in the commercial movie theater, where projectors in 2019 are offered in 99.9% of all theaters around the world. That might change over the next 30 to 50 years as large screen projectors around 50+ feet become more common.



https://www.widescreenreview.com/wsr...il.php?current



https://apnews.com/Business%20Wire/b...8c8f420a69d7cf

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 04-27-2019 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:02 PM   #1302
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Native 8K content is coming in the future and 16K displays are a strong possibility in the far future

Currently there is no native consumer 8K content in existence. The commercial high-end IMAX and Dolby Cinema theaters are still using 4K DLP projectors and have not upgraded to 8K DLP projectors yet. Once the commercial movie theaters upgrade to 8K projectors then movie studios well start creating 8K studio masters.



For the first time in history super high-end consumer projectors and flat panel screens have more video resolution when compared to IMAX and Dolby Cinema theaters. Digital Projection INC has launched the worlds first generation 8K Laser DLP Projectors ,LG is in the process of launching their very first 88 inch 8K OLED flat panel screen. 8K and 10K displays require the 8K external device to have HDMI version 2.1 or greater (10K might be used by future computer monitors and in theory well not be used by those in the home theater industry).



The problem with 8K is that there is no movie studio making 8K masters except for rare demo videos. Currently there is no 8K optical disc on the market and in theory an 8K optical disc format well not launch until sometime around the year 2026. In addition, the majority of streaming and movie download services well most likely not be offering 8K content until around the year 2026. Under ideal conditions it is possible that Netflix and VUDU might start offering 8K streaming in 3 or 4 years from now instead of waiting until the year 2026 (Netflix is currently using 8K digital cameras for their latest movies and TV series but only streaming at low bit rate 4K Ultra HD quality). The consumer electronics industry is about ready to flood the market with 8K displays and there needs to be 8K content to take advantage of 8K displays. 4K Ultra HD only offers 3840 x 2160 resolution. There are many 4K displays under $500 now and 8K is the next improvement in video resolution with 7680 x 4320 pixels.



Consumers need a bigger screen and need to sit closer to the screen to see the resolution detail difference between 8K and 4K displays. On pages 40-45 of the June 2019 Widescreen Review magazine there is a detailed article that explains that 8K displays are more closer to what the eyes sees in real life and the average person can see the picture quality difference between a 4K and 8K display because of the spacing of the 8K display pixels is half the distance when compared to 4K displays. There are higher order processes going on in the human brain that increase the sense of depth when viewing a 8K display compared to a 4K display (that is according to research data).



Back in 2006 2K displays was popular (2K is also called 1080P), then in 2016 4K displays became popular. Around the year 2026 8K displays in theory well be very popular and affordable for the average consumer. Then around the year 2036 16K displays should be popular with consumers (a new version of HDMI needs to be created since HDMI 2.1 maxes out at 10K and cannot handle 16K video resolutions). While I am all for improvements in video resolution, I have my doubts that 32K displays well be made, for most consumers in theory 16K displays well be the maximum resolution that well be needed unless improvements to the human eye are made.


So after the consumer electronics industry gives consumers 8K and 16K displays, hopefully display manufactures well work on other important things like motion quality, color quality, brightness levels, shadow detail, and by then hopefully all displays well have absolute deep blacks like OLED displays.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:32 PM   #1303
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Improvements to video and audio compression technology


A triple layer 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc holds up to 100GB of space on an optical disc. A 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc contains both high bit rate lossy video using the HEVC codec for video resolutions up to 3840 x 2160P. HEVC can also support 480i to 1080P, but some studios for bonus content that is 1080P or lower use MPEG-4/AVC, VC-1, or MPEG-2 lossy video compression technology. While both 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray and standard 1080P Blu-ray can handle both PCM studio master audio along with lossy audio codecs like Dolby Digital and DTS, most of the time studio lossless audio codecs like 11.1 Dolby Atmos (7.1 Dolby TrueHD core) and 11.1 DTS X (7.1 DTS-HD master audio core) is used.


While companies like Kaleidescape offer native bit for bit 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image downloads, at this time in the history of Internet technology no company offers standard 1080P Blu-ray image streaming or 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image streaming. With 1Gbps residential Internet service available in most areas of the United States (10Gbps speed in some large cities), there is plenty of bandwidth to stream a 100GB size movie on a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc. However, a minimum sustained Internet speed of 128Mbps is required to stream 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. And perhaps in 5+ years maybe Kaleidescape or Netflix well offer a app for Blu-ray players that allows one to stream a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc including all the extra features.




With faster more powerful computers one day lossless audio and video would take up less bandwidth




While today’s technology requires 128Mbps constant Internet speed to stream a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image, in the future with much faster computers and a more efficient lossless audio codecs being created, without compromising quality the same 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image might only take around 5Mbps to stream and be bit for bit exactly the same as the original 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc that took 128Mbps to stream. Such a technology might be 10 to 20+ years in the future. It is a known fact that the faster the computers and the more powerful the chips being developed would result in programmers being able to develop much better video and audio codecs that takes less space without compromising quality. The computers and codecs today are to slow to offer lossless video quality at 16K quality with over a 100 discrete lossless audio channels (having 100’s of tiny little speakers around the home theater room would be more like real life in regards to outdoor audio one hears in the wilderness).


In 10 or 20 years, the super computers one has in their home will be much faster and most likely there will be breakthroughs in both lossless video and lossless audio technologies that will result in very little space needed for storage and streaming. Then consumers will need new A/V receivers that offer new lossless audio codecs that take only 10% of the space that Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master audio takes, but have the exact same 7.1 PCM studio master audio quality when unzipped by the A/V receiver.

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 06-28-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 08-28-2019, 03:05 PM   #1304
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Filmmaker mode striking a blow against motion smoothing
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Old 09-03-2019, 01:55 PM   #1305
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Default DisplayPort 2.0 supports 16K signals at up to 60Hz

QUOTE


"Within the connector, DisplayPort 2.0 features four Thunderbolt 3 links inside the cable, enabling it to triple the bandwidth of the standard to 77.37Gb/s. The new standard will support one 16K signal at 60Hz, two 8K signals at 120Hz, or three 10K signals at 60Hz, all at 30 bits per pixel (bpp) 4:4:4 HDR with no compression."


https://www.connectorsupplier.com/di...tor-standards/
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Old 11-27-2019, 04:28 AM   #1306
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While it is awesome that JVC is offering a free firmware update for their current projectors. It is disappointing that JVC did not announce new projector models this year. In the past JVC released new LCOS projectors every single year, however no new models announced this year (Perhaps JVC may come out with a new model projector every two years instead of every year). Flat panel screens are slowly replacing the demand for projectors as flat panel screens get bigger and cheaper almost every year. It is true that a JVC LCOS projector is better quality then a OLED screen plus projectors support 3D technology. In the past JVC made improvements on their LCOS projectors every single year, now one may need to wait every two years to see a new improved model.

QUOTE

"In a departure for JVC, the company didnít announce new D-ILA projector models at CEDIA Expo in September 2019. Instead, JVCís key announcement at the show was a firmware update for the native 4K projector line it had unveiled at the previous CEDIA Expo in 2018. (Supported models include the DLA-NX9, DLA-NX7, DLA-NX5, DLA-RS3000, DLA-RS2000, and DLA-RS1000.)"

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ASpWkgR8ICH.99
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Old 12-27-2019, 04:46 PM   #1307
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High-end 4K Ultra HD commercial DLP projectors maintain the full 3840 x 2160P resolution (and 4096 x 2160P for rare 4096 sources) during fast motion scenes. The problem with all OLED’s and LCD’s 4K and 8K flat panel screens is they lose resolution when motion occurs on the screen, since the resolution is a static still picture rating for flat panels. So watching native 8K programs when they come out will have resolution lost during motion scenes on the best of 8K flat panels. However the advantage of 8K flat panel screens when compared to all 4K flat panel screens is that all 8K flat panel screens will be able to display the full 3840 x 2160P resolution even during fast moving action scenes on the screen. 8K Ultra HD is 7680 x 4320 and yes the upconverted 4K image will lose some motion resolution, however it will be able to maintain the full original native 3840 x 2160p from a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray since the 8K upconverted static resolution is starting at 7680 x 4320. So even the worst 8K display on the market that loses a few thousand lines of resolution during fast motion scenes will still have the original 3840 x 2160P image from a native 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc.

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 01-03-2020 at 05:51 AM.
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:07 PM   #1308
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I see more and more 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs are being released with both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision HDR (It use to be 4K Blu-ray titles only had standard HDR10 and sometimes offering Dolby Vision HDR). For example, The Wizard of Oz on 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray that I purchased back on October 29th 2019 has both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision HDR. However, since no USA display exists in 2019 that has both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision HDR I am not able to compare the two HDR formats. There are international Panasonic displays sold outside the USA that supports both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision HDR. Since HDR10+ is backwards compatible with older HDR10 equipment, consumers will be able to play the HDR10 core if they do not have HDR10+ or Dolby Vision HDR technology on their display and 4K Blu-ray player.

Dolby Vision HDR is much better quality when compared to HDR10+, since HDR10+ only supports 10 bit 1.07 billion colors with peak brightness up to 4000cd/m2. Where as Dolby Vision HDR supports 12 bit 68.7 billion colors with peak brightness support up to 10,000cd/m2. In the years to come in theory high-end displays might be invented that support the full specs of Dolby Vision HDR at 12 bit 68.7 billion colors with peak brightness up to 10,000cd/m2. Then we will not need tone mapping anymore. The reason why we have tone mapping in 4K displays and some 4K Blu-ray players is because of limitations in the display being able to display the peak brightness that is offered by the HDR formats. There are big improvements that need to be made in display technologies so that tone mapping can be bypassed and not needed anymore.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/hdr10-vs-dolby-vision

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/wizard-oz

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-30-2019 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:51 PM   #1309
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Finally, for the very first time a flat panel is available in the United States that offers all the most popular HDR formats (HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision HDR, and HLG). Thanks to Vizio for releasing flat panels in the United States with all the most popular HDR formats (Philips Technicolor HDR format is not offered yet on displays, but then that HDR format might end up being a dead HDR format since it might not make mainstream consumer acceptance for use).

Now all consumers need is for OLED displays and projectors to offer all the most popular HDR formats from one display. Its good to see both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision HDR for the first time being offered in a USA display. Hopefully VIZIO will start making some OLED displays with all the HDR formats, instead of just regular Quantum X LCD displays with all the HDR formats.

Quotes

“What would you pay for a 75-inch Ultra HDTV that's bright enough to handle virtually all high dynamic range programs without having to perform the tone mapping most 4K/HDR sets require?”

"In more technical terms, this set delivers enough brightness that it doesn't need to employ tone mapping for most HDR sources."

“The PX75-G1 is compatible with Dolby Vision, HLG, HDR10 and even HDR10+ high dynamic range, though HDR10+ programs are still thin on the ground.”

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ra-hdtv-review

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 01-29-2020 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 11:21 PM   #1310
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The following article is an interesting read. There is an 8K TV Association and certification logo so that consumers that see that logo on their 8K display will know they are purchasing a quality 8K display. It is disappointing that the 8K association of companies decided not to make the 3D feature mandatory. Hopefully around 10+ years from now the 16K association of companies will agree to make it mandatory for 16K displays to have some type of 3D feature (each company that makes 16K displays would decide rather to use active glasses, passive glasses, or glass free 3D technology if the 3D feature was made mandatory in 16K displays).

Getting back to the year 2020. According to the following article they are claiming that within 2 years a major streaming provider might start offering movies in native 8K quality. However, things can get delayed and it might be 3+ years before native movies are offered in 8K quality. Companies like Netflix have been using 8K digital cameras and are ideal for offering 8K movies. The existing HEVC codec is used for both the 2016 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray format and the new ATSC 3.0 over the air broadcast system. Bit rates for 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs peak at 128Mbps and ATSC 3.0 broadcasts peak at 57Mbps (ATSC 3.0 also has the capability of using 8K resolution with the HEVC codec) However better quality and more efficient video codecs might be created for streaming, satellite TV, cable TV, videogame systems, and possible even a new 8K optical disc format in 2026. However many articles when talking about 8K are only mentioning streaming, ATSC 3.0, satellite/cable TV channels, videogame systems, and no mention of a 8K optical disc format. But seeing a 8K DVD format with a legacy 480i DVD layer is a possibility or instead a 8K Blu-ray format or other 8K optical disc format that uses up to 2TB of storage with lossless video and audio would be a videophiles dream. 8K optical disc format would need to appear on the market by around 2026, and it would need to have better quality when compared to 8K streaming. If not then physical media would most likely slowly die as people with 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs switch to 8K steaming to get the best picture quality from 8K VUDU and 8K Netflix. But for 8K streaming to replace Blu-ray disc and all physical media, 8K streaming would need to also offer lossless audio.

Select quotes from the article:

“Our goal with the 8K Association Certified logo program is to offer a logo that consumers can look for knowing that any 8K TV that carries the logo will provide a high-quality 8K experience.”

“8K technology is about much more than 33 million pixels. Although the quantity of pixels is four times greater than 4K UHD resolution, the quality of those pixels and the dramatically better visual experience that can be delivered are the real benefit. “

“We believe that like 4K, streaming will lead the way with 8K adoption. The major streaming service providers are not offering an 8K service yet, but we see smaller players entering the market first, paving the way for the bigger players later. 8K will really take off when a major streamer offers a service, which will likely be within the next two years, in our opinion.”

“The standard codec for 8K today is HEVC (high-efficiency video coding), but AV1 is already being used on YouTube for 8K content and the MPEG-based codecs VVC (versatile video coding), EVC (essential video coding), and LCEVC (low complexity enhancement video coding) are all nearing finalization.”

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-entertainment

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 06-11-2020 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 06-13-2020, 02:45 AM   #1311
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Default Important 3D information

3D for flat panel displays died back in 2016. For the last 4 years there has been no flat panel display with the 3D feature being manufactured. Some of the reasons 3D died for flat panels was because the 3D quality was poor when compared to reference 3D quality on a DLP projector. However, the last 4K OLED flat panels with 1080P 3D passive glasses were made in 2016, and they had better 3D quality improvements when compared to the poor quality LCD 3D flat panels made back in 2010.

It appears 3D is not coming back for flat panel screens, at least within the next 10 years. The 3D feature in flat panels would need to be mandated, and the companies that make up the 8K flat panel association did not add 3D to their final specs.

The good news is that if one wants to watch movies like Avatar, Titanic, and the Hobbit Trilogy on Blu-ray 3D, some DLP and LCOS projectors offer the 3D feature. The best quality 3D has always been a dual DLP projector setup or a single DLP projector setup. But the problem is all the new 4K resolution models of DLP projectors for consumers do not offer true 3840 x 2160P resolution for 2D 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. It use to be one had to spend $250,000+ for a true 4K resolution DLP projector, however now most likely $85,000+ is the cheapest DLP projector with a true 4K light engine. Then there is the problem of many home versions of DLP projectors dropping the 3D feature when they tried to offer resolutions above 2K (1080P).

Today the best choice in projectors for those that want both true 4K resolution with the legacy 1080P Blu-ray 3D feature, would be either a Sony or JVC LCOS projector that ranges in prices between $5,000-$60,000. While the 1080P 3D feature located on LCOS projectors is not as good as the best 3D DLP projectors, starting at only $5,000 the LCOS projectors are the cheapest projector that offers true 4K resolution for 2D images. Home Projectors only offer HDR10 and HLG. At this time Home projectors are not offering the Dolby Vision HDR and HDR10+ feature.

For $60,000 the Sony VPL-VW5000ES is Sony’s best 4K SXRD (LCOS) projector. Laser powered with 5000 lum ( legacy 1080P Blu-ray 3D playback capability.)
https://www.sony.com/electronics/pro...etails_default

For $35,000 the Sony VPL-VW995ES with 2,200 lum is another awesome 4K projector (legacy 1080P Blu-ray 3D playback capability).
https://www.sony.com/electronics/projector/vpl-vw995es

For $24,999 the JVC DLA-RS4500K is a good 4K projector (legacy 1080P Blu-ray 3D playback capability).
https://www.us.jvc.com/projectors/re...e/dla_rs4500k/

As of 2020 the cheapest native 4K image projector is $4,999 called the Sony VPL-VW295ES which also offers the legacy 1080P Blu-ray 3D playback capability.
https://www.sony.com/electronics/projector/vpl-vw295es

Back around the year 2016+ with the launch of so called 4K projectors with 1080P light engines, many brands and models dropped the legacy Blu-ray 3D feature. Around the year 2026 when consumer native 8K projectors become a reality, hopefully Sony, JVC, and other brands will still offer the legacy 3D feature.

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 06-13-2020 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 06-18-2020, 04:22 PM   #1312
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4K Ultra HD TVís over the last 4 years have gotten to be so cheap, that 1080P TVís are not even being made anymore. The future will be 4K Ultra HD Smart TVís as entry level models and the higher-end TVís will be 8K Smart TVís.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:38 AM   #1313
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Default Another bad year for Blu-ray 3D

In the year 2020 the new PowerDVD 20 Ultra software completely removes the Blu-ray 3D feature with no more plans to every support that format again, which means over 1.5 billion people that use the Windows operating system have lost the potential to playback Blu-ray 3D discs.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...04&postcount=1
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:52 PM   #1314
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Default Sony Launches Three New 4K SXRD Projectors

QUOTE

"Sony Electronics has announced a trio of native 4K (4096 x 2160) SXRD projectors aimed at the consumer and custom installation channels. The new models are the VPL-VW715ES, VPL-VW915ES, and flagship VPL-GTZ380."

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...xrd-projectors
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:40 PM   #1315
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Default Hands-On with JVCís New Theater Optimizer Function

quote


"The firmware also includes a few other tweaks and new features and will be available as a free firmware update in November 2020 for the following models: DLA-NX5, DLA-NX7, DLA-NX9, DLA-RS1000, DLA-RS2000, and DLA-RS3000."


https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...mizer-function
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