Any rumors about Buffy the Vampire Slayer show coming out on Blu-ray?

[NL197]

Season 2 was always my favorite season.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by NL197

When season 2 was released, DVDTalk did a wonderful review and analysis of the wider framing, even going as far as including about 8 or 9 random shots in both 16:9 and cropped to 4:3 for a direct comparison.

Trouble is 11 years later, that review is void of any images now because they are all broken URLs, but the (still insightful) words remain.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/7211/angel-season-two/

There are even quotes in the review from ANGEL exec Tim Minear (who was more involved with the day-to-day decision-making than Whedon was) about the wider framing.

Oh that's wonderful, thank you very much for the link! Joss Whedon totally got it wrong then. I hope he's been informed since!

"Season two was not shot to be presented in anything but 4:3. It's true that the British version is 16:9, and I'll even admit that I sort of enjoy watching it that way -- in the shots where it works (and it's only happy chance that it does,) it work real well. But it's wrong I tell ya! Wrong!"

I particularly like that he points out that yes, sometimes Angel S2 does look good in widescreen, but it is merely a coincidence, precisely what I've been saying.

[theprestige85]

Originally Posted by NL197

Season 2 was always my favorite season.

It's a terrific season up until those last few episodes. If it hadn't been for those two eps, i'd have argued that it was the best season of the series.

[theprestige85]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Oh that's wonderful, thank you very much for the link! Joss Whedon totally got it wrong then. I hope he's been informed since!

"Season two was not shot to be presented in anything but 4:3. It's true that the British version is 16:9, and I'll even admit that I sort of enjoy watching it that way -- in the shots where it works (and it's only happy chance that it does,) it work real well. But it's wrong I tell ya! Wrong!"

I particularly like that he points out that yes, sometimes Angel S2 does look good in widescreen, but it is merely a coincidence, precisely what I've been saying.

And he's right, it does. But yeah, theres going to be times where the framing is bizarre, init.

Not gay or anything but I forget how god damn handsome David Boreanaz is.

[KindredCoda]

Okay, so these shows were shot on film, but edited on video, right? So each shot would have to be rescanned in HD from their negatives.

As far as 16x9 framing is concerned, any individual shot with unwanted items could be re-framed. All other shots could stay as-is, framing-wise.

Seems like a no-brainer.

[themadbutcher]

Originally Posted by KindredCoda

Okay, so these shows were shot on film, but edited on video, right? So each shot would have to be rescanned in HD from their negatives.

As far as 16x9 framing is concerned, any individual shot with unwanted items could be re-framed. All other shots could stay as-is, framing-wise.

Seems like a no-brainer.

No a no-brainer would be to release the shows in the way their creators intended them to be: 4X3 for all of BUFFY and season 1 & 2 of ANGEL, 16X9 for ANGEL 3-5.

Aside from personal opinions on the look of these shows, what is there to discuss? We have clear comments from both Whedon and Minear about the way the shows were shot and should be seen.

[EddieLarkin]

It's easy to go on and on about the goofs when we talk about how bad an idea 16x9 is, but the real issue is how it affects the composition. Re-framing shots would be the worst thing they could possibly do, because it would both mess with the mise-en-scene Whedon has been insistent on preserving, AND it would prevent those who wish to from correcting it with their own pillarboxing. If these are to be 16x9, just leave them as is so those who care can fix them. The ones who don't can suffer the goofs they apparently rarely seem to notice.

[Geoff D]

So we're gonna take Whedon's word as gospel for Buffy but not for Angel? Riiiiiiight. Yes, we've got Minear on record as well saying it's only 4:3, but there's something to be said for watching Angel S2 in widescreen, for which Whedon gave his approval - even if it was just dumb ****ing luck that the framing turned out that way.

As happy-happy-joy-joy as that dvdtalk review is making some people, the reviewer also says this:

My personal thought is that, at least based on this sample, Angel works reasonably well at 16x9. Though the dead space on the sides was an intermittent distraction, it wasn't to such a degree that it significantly hampered the viewing experience. It's largely neutral, neither adding nor taking away, and bear in mind that the effect won't be as severe as what you see in these screenshots after factoring in overscan. I initially skimmed through these episodes on my DVD-ROM, and the empty portions seemed much more severe than what I would later see on my television. Despite what those images may suggest, to a large extent, if I'd gone in blind and had no idea what the intended aspect ratio was, I wouldn't have thought the aspect ratio was incorrect. Composition didn't seem to be thrown excessively with the wider frame, at least in these seven episodes. Of course, my opinion isn't definitive and other thoughts are certain to vary, but I didn't notice any major concerns with this modified presentation.

And that's exactly how I feel about S2 in widescreen: it works. Buffy does not.

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Sorry Geoff, but I don't know what you're talking about. I chose a random episode from Angel S2 (episode 6) and composition wise it has a lot more in common with Buffy than it does with S3 of Angel. Indeed, it has nothing in common with the latter. As soon as you crop S3 to 4x3 it is immediate that something is wrong. This episode of S2 works absolutely fine in 4x3, and has all the usual hallmarks. When the camera moves, it always keeps people within the 4x3 area, and there is oodles of space on the side. It just looks like same old same old:

For now, I stand by my claim that Whedon made a mistake when saying Angel started shooting widescreen with S2.

Like I said, the episodes at the back end of the season look very nice in widescreen, a view which is concurred with in the dvdtalk review.

[EddieLarkin]

Whedon's word on Buffy is in line with how it looks. Whedon's word on Angel S2 is not, so it should be subject to scrutiny. When you put his statement up against Minear's explanation, it becomes clear; Whedon made a mistake. I checked episode 20 as well and found it to look exactly the same as episode 6. As Tim Minear says, the season was shot 4:3 and only 4:3, but does look OK in widescreen, but that it is merely coincidence. Coincidence is not a reason to release something in the wrong AR and suffer obvious goofs and tons of dead space on the sides, for the sake of the few shots/scenes that may indeed look better.

For the record, the review didn't make me happy-happy-joy-joy, Minear's quote did. That said, the reviewer himself acknowledges that the 16x9 version didn't look that bad because it was heavily overscanned on his TV compared to his computer!

[NL197]

Originally Posted by theprestige85

Not gay or anything but I forget how god damn handsome David Boreanaz is.

My longest man-crush ever. Total agreement.

2003 was when the review and the set came out, so widescreen TVs weren't nearly as commonplace as they are now, and even then, overscan was also very common and unavoidable on most, if not all 4:3 TV sets. The dead space and errors are much more severe on a computer screen or TV without overscan.

[HDMe]

I always wondered about Angel Season 2... because the packaging for that DVD set actually says "full screen" on it... Seasons 3-5 say widescreen... so that always led me to believe that when they started on the Angel Season 2 release it was going to be full screen, then it changes along the way.

[Geoff D]

Bah. I'd still rather have S2 in widescreen.

[theprestige85]

Well, i'm just excited about the potential of the high def transfers for the shows. If season 1 ends up looking disapponting, I wouldn't count it out until we get a look at season 3 and beyond, because those are the seasons where i'm expecting great detail.

Also, if Buffy does well on blu ray (which it will), that more or less gives the green light for Angel to be released too.

[d514]

I don't know if this has been posted before. A German page which compares the US 4:3 DVDs with the German/UK 16:9 DVDs:

4x10: Hush
http://www.timo-schreiter.de/movies/...son/btvs/4x10/

5x22: The gift
http://www.timo-schreiter.de/movies/...son/btvs/5x22/

6x08: Taula Rasa
http://www.timo-schreiter.de/movies/...son/btvs/6x08/

7x22: Chosen
http://www.timo-schreiter.de/movies/...son/btvs/7x22/


I really don't see how someone could prefer the 16:9 version...

[Drewbee87]

"Chosen" is one of the many I loved in 16:9 more than 4:3. IMO, the final battle looks so much better in 16:9.

[CinemaScope]

Thanks d514, in some shots the 4x3 looks better, & others I prefer the 16:9. I suppose you have to see the scenes on the move to really judge. I wonder what Fox will do? I just can't see 'em going 4x3 for HD when a lot of the world has only seen it in widescreen, & remember, they have worldwide TV sales to think of as well. I'm not going to argue I'm right, but I do prefer Buffy in 16:9, the seasons that were shot that way anyway.

[theprestige85]

Originally Posted by CinemaScope

Thanks d514, in some shots the 4x3 looks better, & others I prefer the 16:9. I suppose you have to see the scenes on the move to really judge. I wonder what Fox will do? I just can't see 'em going 4x3 for HD when a lot of the world has only seen it in widescreen, & remember, they have worldwide TV sales to think of as well. I'm not going to argue I'm right, but I do prefer Buffy in 16:9, the seasons that were shot that way anyway.

That's the thing, none of the 7 seasons were even shot in 16:9. The only episode that was true widescreen was Once More With Feeling. Everything was native 4:3.

Angel seasons 3-5 are proper widescreen, though.

[Panemlights]

After seeing those screenshots side-by-side, I can see why many prefer 4:3 and of course Whedon's preference. I watched 4-7 widescreen so I was used to it and couldn't think about watching it in 4:3.
I'm leaning towards the original aspect ratio now.

[CinemaScope]

Originally Posted by theprestige85

That's the thing, none of the 7 seasons were even shot in 16:9. The only episode that was true widescreen was Once More With Feeling. Everything was native 4:3.

But...they were! Where did that extra picture left & right come from?

I understand seasons 4-7 were shot on three-perf 35mm, & the screen shape of that is...16:9. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be 4x3 or that is wasn't composed for 4x3, but they have 16:9 worth of picture. When they transferred to tape they could have just transferred the middle 4x3 - centre cut-out as we used to call it. They obviously transferred the whole 16:9 picture (anamorphic), did all the post 16:9, & lastly did a tape to tape 4x3 centre cut-out for the American transmissions, & we in Europe got the full 16:9 picture. I can't think Joss Wheedon was very happy about that, but he obviously didn't have the power to do anything about it.

A few years ago I was a telecine colourist doing nothing but TV productions shot on film. I was grading over-cut super 16mm negative, but in the early 90's I was zooming it into 4x3, so that extra picture (right & left) was never on tape, that's not the case with some seasons of Buffy. Again, I'm not saying that 16:9 is right, I'm just saying what must have happened. I'd prefer it, but that's just me.

[EddieLarkin]

Nearly everything ever was shot with more information in the frame than what was intended to be seen. It's a moot point.