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Old 06-19-2022, 09:17 AM   #21
ProfXtacy ProfXtacy is offline
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Exactly this. Your reply was brisk and to the point but not aggressive, not rude, some might say condescending, I'd say just very direct. There's so much there to unpick, so many weird bits, falsehoods and assumptions that an itemised reply wouldn't be worth the time when the OP could (and should) do themselves a favour and research what you prescribed because that would answer a lot of questions and just might blow the OP's mind.
Yet it was worth his time to be rude and condescending. If time is so precious to him, do us all a favour and just ignore the op instead of being nasty and toxic.

It seems different people have different views of what is rude, but the fact that a number of people seem to agree with my comments would suggest that he needs to rethink his comments.

The problem is the poor behaviour of people if forcing people off of forums - we’ve seen that this weekend with a well respected poster.

But some people seem happier with a quick meme, flippant remark or nasty put down rather than building a community.

Last edited by ProfXtacy; 06-19-2022 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfXtacy View Post
Yet it was worth his time to be rude and condescending. If time is so precious to him, do us all a favour and just ignore the op instead of being nasty and toxic.

It seems different people have different views of what is rude, but the fact that a number of people seem to agree with my comments would suggest that he needs to rethink his comments.

The problem is the poor behaviour of people if forcing people off of forums - we’ve seen that this weekend with a well respected poster.

But some people seem happier with a quick meme, flippant remark or nasty put down rather than building a community.
If it’s a popularity contest you want, twice as many people thanked his post than yours, unless you’ve been deluged with messages of support in your PMs? His reply was short and very much to the point and didn’t contain any kind of personal attack, if someone can’t handle such a reply then they would appear to have the thinnest of skin and perhaps shouldn’t be on a forum in the first place.

This “community” is what it is, its building phase is long since finished and has been eclipsed by other forms of social media. What’s left are the hardcore forumites who have little time for niceties, the deeply autistic spec-obsessed types and those who are just plain trolling who’ve overrun the place. Aim your ire at the latter for forcing Aclea off this board (though if you aks me they should just ****ing ban Dr Who threads entirely, they seem to breed a special kind of crazy and that’s saying something when there’s also Star Wars and Star Trek threads).
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:52 AM   #23
ProfXtacy ProfXtacy is offline
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
If it’s a popularity contest you want, twice as many people thanked his post than yours, unless you’ve been deluged with messages of support in your PMs? His reply was short and very much to the point and didn’t contain any kind of personal attack, if someone can’t handle such a reply then they would appear to have the thinnest of skin and perhaps shouldn’t be on a forum in the first place.

This “community” is what it is, its building phase is long since finished and has been eclipsed by other forms of social media. What’s left are the hardcore forumites who have little time for niceties, the deeply autistic spec-obsessed types and those who are just plain trolling who’ve overrun the place. Aim your ire at the latter for forcing Aclea off this board (though if you aks me they should just ****ing ban Dr Who threads entirely, they seem to breed a special kind of crazy and that’s saying something when there’s also Star Wars and Star Trek threads).
You know you’re just as much of a condescending as he is so just go and do one.
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Old 06-19-2022, 04:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ProfXtacy View Post
Yet it was worth his time to be rude and condescending. If time is so precious to him, do us all a favour and just ignore the op instead of being nasty and toxic.
You've been far ruder to Fodderstompf than he was to the OP, so why not follow your own condescending advice? To the extent that you have any point at all, you have clearly made it, so just move on already. Let the one person who is willing to explain it to the OP explain it and stop trying to pick a fight over nothing.
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Old 06-20-2022, 03:44 AM   #25
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Then maybe my other theory is true that the tape data on the Fotomat Beta 4x3 version had the ship data and that was just a creative way to use extra vertical space to accurately keep the computer vector black hole in perspective. An idea to not waste space on the videotape and keep the computer graphics in the proper ratio. I distinctly remember those ship data computer text in the Fotomat version of the 4x3 Beta version close to its original release.

If that was the case, then that was a clever use of disguising letterboxing without causing a riot.

I know sometimes they change something for the home release like one time Gremlins 2 had a different gremlin takeover scene depending on whether you saw it in the theater or at home on VHS. The theatrical release had a film melting kind of effect like you would see if the film The snapped in the middle of the showing while the home theater had the VCR tracking problem until just kept flipping and stopping. If they were clever, in the DVD version and beyond there could be like giant color blocks, pixelation and other skips indicating scratch disc or misreading disc.

It's not unprecedented for a home release to be slightly different than the theatrical release. Maybe the original photo mat home release had those graphics on the bottom to fill up vertical space which would otherwise be "wasted" with black. (before letterboxing became a big thing).

If someone has the Fotomat Betamax 4x3 version, can you either confirm or deny that it had those graphics on the bottom indicating typical ship statistics that would occur during orbiting a black hole?
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Old 06-20-2022, 09:35 PM   #26
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A Rough Guide to 35mm film to 2.39:1 theatrical exhibition, and Blu-ray.

Originally you'd start off with 35mm film, it looks something like this:


Image 01

The cinematographer and director would consider the best aspect ratio to suit the project, their equipment would have guides to denote 1.85:1, 2.39:1 and so on.





As well as TV safe zones (4:3 and/or 16:9) dependent on equipment. The 4:3 image is what sometimes gets referred to as fullscreen* when outputting widescreen images for 4:3 televisions (on rare occasions you might see the image from the full camera aperture as shown in Image 01).

*It's not uncommon to see imaged composed for 2.39:1 opened up to 16:9 for broadcast.





The sound strip is then added to the left hand side. Framing guides generally exclude that area when shooting.



During exhibition, the image is matted so only the intended image (the composition) is shown. Sometimes errors can happen during production and projectionists are given instructions to matte a certain way (I think David Lynch (or Cronenberg) had an issue a few years back if I recall).



So the audience in theatres see something like this:



If the picture makes it to Blu-ray it ends up like this:



Note: Guides are rough estimates and some of the image sizes may be slightly off.
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Old 06-20-2022, 09:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
A Rough Guide to 35mm film to 2.39:1 theatrical exhibition, and Blu-ray.

Originally you'd start off with 35mm film, it looks something like this:


Image 01

The cinematographer and director would consider the best aspect ratio to suit the project, their equipment would have guides to denote 1.85:1, 2.39:1 and so on.





As well as TV safe zones (4:3 and/or 16:9) dependent on equipment. The 4:3 image is what sometimes gets referred to as fullscreen* when outputting widescreen images for 4:3 televisions (on rare occasions you might see the image from the full camera aperture as shown in Image 01).

*It's not uncommon to see imaged composed for 2.39:1 opened up to 16:9 for broadcast.





The sound strip is then added to the left hand side. Framing guides generally exclude that area when shooting.



During exhibition, the image is matted so only the intended image (the composition) is shown. Sometimes errors can happen during production and projectionists are given instructions to matte a certain way (I think David Lynch (or Cronenberg) had an issue a few years back if I recall).



So the audience in theatres see something like this:



If the picture makes it to Blu-ray it ends up like this:



Note: Guides are rough estimates and some of the image sizes may be slightly off.
If only Arrow had that to hand when they botched Hellraiser III and House...
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Old 06-21-2022, 06:21 PM   #28
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripletopper View Post
Then maybe my other theory is true that the tape data on the Fotomat Beta 4x3 version had the ship data and that was just a creative way to use extra vertical space to accurately keep the computer vector black hole in perspective. An idea to not waste space on the videotape and keep the computer graphics in the proper ratio. I distinctly remember those ship data computer text in the Fotomat version of the 4x3 Beta version close to its original release.

If that was the case, then that was a clever use of disguising letterboxing without causing a riot.

I know sometimes they change something for the home release like one time Gremlins 2 had a different gremlin takeover scene depending on whether you saw it in the theater or at home on VHS. The theatrical release had a film melting kind of effect like you would see if the film The snapped in the middle of the showing while the home theater had the VCR tracking problem until just kept flipping and stopping. If they were clever, in the DVD version and beyond there could be like giant color blocks, pixelation and other skips indicating scratch disc or misreading disc.

It's not unprecedented for a home release to be slightly different than the theatrical release. Maybe the original photo mat home release had those graphics on the bottom to fill up vertical space which would otherwise be "wasted" with black. (before letterboxing became a big thing).

If someone has the Fotomat Betamax 4x3 version, can you either confirm or deny that it had those graphics on the bottom indicating typical ship statistics that would occur during orbiting a black hole?
I already solved your problem...YOU'RE CONFUSING THE TRAILER WITH THE MOVIE. I EVEN LINKED THE TRAILER FOR YOU!! Watch it, that's what you are remembering (or mis-remembering, in this case).

Last edited by Ernest Rister; 06-21-2022 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 06-21-2022, 06:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
[B][I][CENTER]A Rough Guide to 35mm film to 2.39:1 theatrical exhibition, and Blu-ray.
Good stuff, except you don't usually see 2.39 shot in this way. Super 35 uses the full width of the negative, while anamorphic uses almost the full height but leaves room for the soundtrack as per Academy. 2-perf Techniscope is 2.39 widescreen and is inset as per Academy, but leaves no room top and bottom as the frames are edge to edge.
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:09 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Rister View Post
I already solved your problem...YOU'RE CONFUSING THE TRAILER WITH THE MOVIE. I EVEN LINKED THE TRAILER FOR YOU!! Watch it, that's what you are remembering (or mis-remembering, in this case).
Just because it was in the trailer and wasn't in later versions doesn't mean it wasn't used in the Fotomat Beta version.

BTW If you would have asked me before, I would have said it was in the trailer also.

This was the wild west of hone video, when Beta tapes were $100 to guarantee rentals amd very few purchases.

I've seen "skinny scope" as a way of dealing with titles.

Maybe a panner said "this shot would look awful zoomed.". And another said, "what do we do with the remaining space?". Then soneone else said ". Rememver the ship text? We could put it below the scene and preserve the whole VG shot and no one would complain about lost vertical space with the ship graphics taking up space.

There was no one definitive version of Star Wars, even before the Greedo Shot First cut. Someone on the web has a list of minor cuts snd edits between home versions.

So the Fotomat Beta theory is still unresolved.
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Old 06-23-2022, 03:08 AM   #31
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is online now
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You're confusing memories of a trailer with the actual film. No Beta tape, no RCA SelectaVision, no VHS, no laserdisc, no DVD, no Blu-Ray, no streaming release is ever going to surface containing a version of The Black Hole that doesn't exist. Have a nice day.

Last edited by Ernest Rister; 06-23-2022 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 06-23-2022, 05:20 AM   #32
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is online now
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$40.00...and it's not gonna have "wrong way letterboxing", but if you want to waste your money, have at it.

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Old 06-23-2022, 05:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Rister View Post
You're confusing memories of a trailer with the actual film. No Beta tape, no RCA SelectaVision, no VHS, no laserdisc, no DVD, no Blu-Ray, no streaming release is ever going to surface containing a version of The Black Hole that doesn't exist. Have a nice day.
And people said I was rude for saying I had better things to do than try and help this guy when it's pretty clear this would be the outcome - hats off for trying though.
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Old 06-23-2022, 10:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ernest Rister View Post
$40.00...and it's not gonna have "wrong way letterboxing", but if you want to waste your money, have at it.

Sorry to mix franchises, but that's not the droid I'm looking for.

It's the Fotomat Betamax version. It has a mainly black labeling with white letters.

I might want to get it, satisfy my curiousity, and sell it back. Especially if I can flip it.
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Old 06-23-2022, 11:10 PM   #35
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And people say I'm crazy...
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Old 06-24-2022, 01:02 AM   #36
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So you're looking for a 4:3 pan-and-scan beta tape offered at Fotomat photography parking lot kiosks for a five day rental that contains a version of The Black Hole not seen on any other format in the history of home video...gotcha. Good luck with that. I think you have better odds of finding a Fotomax rental beta tape of Orson Welles' uncut version of The Magnificent Ambersons, but don't let that stop you.

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