4K restoration process?

[mishal]

I've always been fascinated with the process of converting an old film to something unbelievable in blu-ray. I have seen the process of the restoration in HD for The Godfather.

Is there a website where I can read or see more about the process of converting and restoring films to HD? And what is the difference between 4K and 6K restoration? Is there particular company that does the restoration and do movie studies do it themselves?

Appreciate any help I can get.

[42041]

4K refers to the horizontal resolution of the film scanner. 4096 pixels. Such a high resolution is needed to accurately sample the analog image on the film to a digital image.

Old films still had to be projected onto a large screen, and 35mm negative from even 60 years ago still had higher resolution than any current home video format. Unless the film is severely physically degraded, you just take the highest quality sources you can (like the original camera negative) and digitize them at the best quality you can, then fix scratches/dust/color fading with digital tools.

Most experts on the matter seem to think you don't need a higher resolution than 4K to restore older 35mm films, so 6K or 8K or whatever for 35mm is largely just hype.

[mishal]

Interesting. Thanks a lot 42041.

Is there a video or site that is sort of like"How it is Made" for restoration? I am very interested to see the process.

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by 42041

Old films still had to be projected onto a large screen, and 35mm negative from even 60 years ago still had higher resolution than any current home video format. Unless the film is severely physically degraded, you just take the highest quality sources you can (like the original camera negative) and digitize them at the best quality you can, then fix scratches/dust/color fading with digital tools.

For old films, don't they only scan the inter-positive or something like that (not the original camera negative)?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

For old films, don't they only scan the inter-positive or something like that (not the original camera negative)?

with real old films (anything pre-80s and even a bit later) you go with what you have. Before VHS film preservation was not big since, except for a handful of movies, once the theatrical run was done there was little value. With VHS and DVD came the idea that the films life does not end with the theatrical run. That is one of the reason that some films that don't have a lot of DNR you can sometimes see where they probably used one print and then an other.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by mishal

Is there a website where I can read or see more about the process of converting and restoring films to HD? And what is the difference between 4K and 6K restoration? Is there particular company that does the restoration and do movie studies do it themselves?

don't know of any websites, but a few films have it as extras. The first step is find prints (usualy more then one) and then finding the best one (and sometimes taking parts of one print and other parts from an other). Then it is usualy sent out for restoration. Some might be film but some will be digital. Between a restoration on film and digital, the film is passed through a scanner which works a lot like the scanner you might have at home or office, but obviously not made fr paper but a 35mm (or other film sizes) frame. Like the scanner at home it reads/creates several dots per inch, and that gives the resolution. For example if you have a digital display it is either 720p or 1080p , for 1080p that means that there are 1080x1920, 4k means that instead of 1920 (~2000) there are ~4000 and 6k ~6000 and 8k ~ 8000 and obviously the equivalent in height. So 4k means 2x 2k (HD) and so 4x the resolution of 1080p (because of CRT TVs that had lines of resolution the common practice is to use lines and so 1080, but since movies have different AR and the width is fixed they use columns and so 4k, think of it this way, if you watch a movie you have black bars above and below, so you have 1920 columns of pixels but you don't have 1080 rows of them).


each studio is a bit different and some do more in house while for others it is more outsourced. There are many companies who's job is restoration, for example Mr. Harris, in the insider forum here , works for one of them and does just that. But even if outsourced a studio is “involved” they might want a cheap simple procedure or go with an expensive full restoration.

[42041]

Originally Posted by mishal

Interesting. Thanks a lot 42041.

Is there a video or site that is sort of like"How it is Made" for restoration? I am very interested to see the process.

Robert Harris has a column on The Digital Bits that may shed some insights, though a lot of it was written before Blu-Ray and when digital tools were considerably less advanced:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...ris/index.html

There's also some special features on discs that go into the restoration process in some depth. The Wizard of Oz and Metropolis come to mind.

For old films, don't they only scan the inter-positive or something like that (not the original camera negative)?

They scan all sorts of stuff, like dupe negatives, interpositives, color separations (where they separated the colors onto several strips of black and white film... the silver in B&W film is much more stable than the dyes in Eastman color, which fade readily under poor storage conditions). The camera negative has the best quality, but as I understand it, the disadvantage is that it's not color timed, so it doesn't have day-for-night shots and color tints and whatnot, so they have to recreate that. The OCN is also irreplaceable and quite fragile.

Older video masters originally made for DVD are typically from the interpositive. There was no reason to use a higher quality source.

[Blue_Baron]

Check out these on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...storation&aq=f

This one in particular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yksfQDHC5QY

[mishal]

Thanks a lot you guys. Really Appreciate.

Anthony P, Thanks for the well explained process

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by 42041

4K refers to the horizontal resolution of the film scanner. 4096 pixels. Such a high resolution is needed to accurately sample the analog image on the film to a digital image.

Old films still had to be projected onto a large screen, and 35mm negative from even 60 years ago still had higher resolution than any current home video format. Unless the film is severely physically degraded, you just take the highest quality sources you can (like the original camera negative) and digitize them at the best quality you can, then fix scratches/dust/color fading with digital tools.

Most experts on the matter seem to think you don't need a higher resolution than 4K to restore older 35mm films, so 6K or 8K or whatever for 35mm is largely just hype.

that's more than likely true, but IMAX, 65mm, Vistavision films have to at least have a 6K restoration

[Flatnate]

Another member posted these two links on a different thread that I found fascinating and thought you may enjoy as well. They sorta relate to the restoration process.

Image Resolution of 35MM Film in Theatrical Presentation

HD VIDEO vs. 35mm FILM

[wilky61]

What films have undergone a 4K restoration for Blu-Ray release other than River Kwai and Taxi Driver?
I was also reading that a 4K restoration is currently under progress for Lawrence, but the release date is still a ways off.

[Flatnate]

I read on the forums that Minority Report will be a 4k transfer, and ... don't quote me but someone somewhere mentioned re-mastering the Godfather in 4k as well.

Quick edit... Sound and Vision article and several other forums confirms that the Godfather was a 4k scan.

[Daredevil666]

I hate the Godfather "restoration". With clipped whites, and color changed to fit the third film style to the whole trilogy, it's a mess.

Witness for example the color timing in the scene where Pacino kills the guys in the restaurant in part 1. Originally, the whole color scheme was blue. It's now neutral, but whoever timed it still kept the blu inside the restaurant in all the exteriors shots.

This drives me crazy. It's not how the film looked like, 4K or not. It's botched.

[KubrickFan]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

I read on the forums that Minority Report will be a 4k transfer, and ... don't quote me but someone somewhere mentioned re-mastering the Godfather in 4k as well.

Quick edit... Sound and Vision article and several other forums confirms that the Godfather was a 4k scan.

Even if it's a 4K scan, doesn't mean the restoration was done at that resolution. Most restorations start with the film being scanned in 4K, and then doing the restoration in 2K.

[Flatnate]

In reference to the Godfather restoration, I did find an interesting article about the whole thing. It includes the screen shots of the aforementioned blue vs neutral Pacino scene. (link to full article below)

http://www.editorsguild.com/v2/magaz...ive_082808.htm

The article actually explains why the color shift occurred:

"The most telling enhancement, oddly enough, was to The Godfather's pivotal restaurant sequence in which Michael Corleone (Al Pacino) guns down Sollozzo (Al Lettieri) and Captain McCluskey (Sterling Hayden). Due to a printing error, half of it looks like a "Xerox of a Xerox of a Xero," according to Harris .

"The story behind that scene is quite interesting," he recalls. "When Joanne Lawson, my long-time assistant, and I were going over both recent prints as well as a 1972 print shot by shot and frame by frame, we noted major problems in the sequence––many, many dupes––and called Gordon. We explained what we were seeing, and he became momentarily silent. He then broke into an interesting grouping of expletives, and explained that the shoot had been over two nights. Both were planned to have the dailies pushed by the lab. The first night came back fine, but with the second––which is inclusive of all footage after Al exits the men's room, as well as the cutaways to Sterling Hayden and a few long shots––the lab forgot to push it, and it came back very, very thin. Gordon switched labs. Technicolor Hollywood did yeoman-like work in producing dupes to attempt to match the footage.

"This was one sequence that we held to the very end of the restoration,” continues Harris, “as we had Pro-Tek inspection technician Joe Caracappa looking through hundreds of cans from which we could attempt to harvest a better image and the sequence finally looks as it should. You can really see the tension on Michael's face for the first time."

I suppose that explains what was going through their heads on this one. I'm not sure I agree with all the decision or not. I prefer the blue myself. I guess lovers of the film should be thankful Spielberg stepped in to have any kind of scan or restoration done at all... just from a preservation stand point. Sad to think of it rotting away in a vault.

[Crimson King]

Originally Posted by wilky61

What films have undergone a 4K restoration for Blu-Ray release other than River Kwai and Taxi Driver?
I was also reading that a 4K restoration is currently under progress for Lawrence, but the release date is still a ways off.

Dr. Strangelove

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by KubrickFan

Even if it's a 4K scan, doesn't mean the restoration was done at that resolution. Most restorations start with the film being scanned in 4K, and then doing the restoration in 2K.

I thought the final process was downrezzing the 4K scan/restoration to 2K for home video - hence why the 'Taxi Driver' AMC theater presentation was a constant 4K workflow process.

[KubrickFan]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

I thought the final process was downrezzing the 4K scan/restoration to 2K for home video - hence why the 'Taxi Driver' AMC theater presentation was a constant 4K workflow process.

That's correct for Taxi Driver, but apart from that (and a few other titles) most are still scanned in 4K, and then downrezzed before they actually start the restoration.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by wilky61

...I was also reading that a 4K restoration is currently under progress for Lawrence, but the release date is still a ways off.

Think higher in terms of scanning.