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Old 01-27-2017, 05:15 AM   #1
HDTV1080P HDTV1080P is offline
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Default Everyone needs to literally purchase a new PC to play 4K Blu-ray discs on a PC

This thread is for Windows PC owners, your better off getting a standalone 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player for $200, since you will save thousands of dollars over trying to make your PC have the ability to play 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs.

In the interest of keeping the native 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs 100% secure from piracy, the Hollywood studios, BDA, and consumer electronics industry is going to force everyone to purchase a completely new desktop computer or Laptop computer in order to play native 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. There are people that own $5,000-$15,000+ desktop computers that are only a year old, and instead of coming out with a secure software solution, all new hardware is required (people that currently own HDCP 2.2 4K Ultra HD desktop computer monitors will be ok). This also means the graphics card, CPU, and motherboard need to be HDCP 2.2 complaint. Your power supply and system case do not need to be replaced most likely.

Back in 1997 when the DVD-ROM drives came out people did not need to purchase a completely new PC. In 2006 when the BD-ROM drives were released consumers were not required to purchase a new PC, just a new BD-ROM drive and maybe a new graphics card if their existing graphics card did not support standard HDCP. Also in 2010 when the Blu-ray 3D format came out all that was needed was a software update and maybe a new graphics card that supported 3-D. I am all for movie studios keeping their movies 100% secure from being pirated, since those movies belong to the movie studios (It’s a lot of hard work to make a movie).

** However playing back 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray movies on a PC is going to become a very niche market for the next several years, since literally almost everyone on the planet earth needs to buy a new computer if they want to play the new format. **

If the HDCP 2.2 encryption was just required for the desktop computer monitor and graphics card, then this would have received widespread consumer support. Requiring the CPU and motherboard to be HDCP 2.2 and AACS 2.0, means that 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs for all Windows PC's has become a very niche market for several years. If this HDCP 2.2 and AACS 2.0 encryption would have been allowed to be in software it would have opened up the possibility of many existing computers being able to use the new 4K optical discs. The average person replaces their PC every 5 years. So in 5 years from now a lot more people will be using 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs as long as the format is still in existence.

Quote

In a bid not to let AACS 2.0 encryption keys leak (as it happened in the past to the original AACS), AACS LA demands to handle their decryption in a secure hardware environment.”

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11069/pioneer-announces-ultra-hd-bluray-supporting-bdrs11j-drives

Last edited by HDTV1080P; 01-27-2017 at 06:20 AM. Reason: edited to mention standalone 4K Blu-ray players
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Old 01-27-2017, 06:11 AM   #2
Petra_Kalbrain Petra_Kalbrain is offline
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EVERYONE doesn't need to LITERALLY do jack shit. You make it sound as though PC is the ONLY means of 4K playback. There will be other options besides PC for that. So, this thread title is B.S. clickbait.

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Old 01-27-2017, 06:14 AM   #3
HDTV1080P HDTV1080P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain View Post
EVERYONE doesn't need to LITERALLY do jack shit. You make it sound as though PC is the ONLY means of 4K playback. There will be other options besides PC for that. So, this thread title is B.S. clickbait.


This is the PC part of the forum. Of course someone can purchase a standalone Blu-ray player for $200. PC owners have a huge cost to upgrade to 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. $200 for the drive, Windows 10, and 90% new hardware.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:07 AM   #4
Petra_Kalbrain Petra_Kalbrain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P View Post
This is the PC part of the forum. Of course someone can purchase a standalone Blu-ray player for $200. PC owners have a huge cost to upgrade to 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. $200 for the drive, Windows 10, and 90% new hardware.
So... no matter where it is located, the thread title is still sensationalist. You wrote "everyone in the world" when, in fact, you actually only meant "everyone who uses a PC for Blu-ray playback." That is a huge difference in demographic inclusion.

P.S. Not everyone uses the forum subcategories to seek out new forum activity. Many use the main site page, which does not distinguish any thread into categories, so as to be able to see ALL new activity in case an interesting thread pops up. Since your thread title was so general in nature, it's reasonable to understand why I responded the way that I did.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:34 AM   #5
HDTV1080P HDTV1080P is offline
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Sorry, I met to say everyone in the world that uses a PC for Blu-ray playback and wants to play 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, is forced to buy a new desktop or Laptop computer.


While I am glad that 2017 is going to have a solution for Windows PC owners, I am disappointed that it requires people to have to replace everything including the operating system. Talk about a extremely niche market they have just created for PC owners.


Hopefully some new 4K Laptop computers will also get a BD-ROM drive.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:36 AM   #6
LordCrumb LordCrumb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain View Post
So... no matter where it is located, the thread title is still sensationalist. You wrote "everyone in the world" when, in fact, you actually only meant "everyone who uses a PC for Blu-ray playback." That is a huge difference in demographic inclusion.

P.S. Not everyone uses the forum subcategories to seek out new forum activity. Many use the main site page, which does not distinguish any thread into categories, so as to be able to see ALL new activity in case an interesting thread pops up. Since your thread title was so general in nature, it's reasonable to understand why I responded the way that I did.
Regardless, your initial post was overly aggressive and childlike. It was a completely pointless post that served only to appease your own negativity towards the subject.
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Old 01-27-2017, 11:16 AM   #7
Petra_Kalbrain Petra_Kalbrain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordCrumb View Post
Regardless, your initial post was overly aggressive and childlike. It was a completely pointless post that served only to appease your own negativity towards the subject.
I will admit that "This thread title is B.S. clickbait" could seem overly aggressive. However, the after the post was intended to show that I was exaggerating to make a point and that I wasn't wholly serious about that. As for the rest of the post, I consider that an expression of simple logical factual information.

As for childlike? Again, I could see you thinking that IF I hadn't included a clear indication that I wasn't being serious. Refer once more to the at the bottom of the post.

And lastly, how can I be trying to "appease my own negativity towards the subject" when I had no opinion on the subject beyond stating the factually obvious information that there will be more than 1 way to watch 4K Blu-ray as a counterpoint to what the OP stated as fact? Which is not an opinion in and of itself.
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Old 01-28-2017, 06:38 AM   #8
HDTV1080P HDTV1080P is offline
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It looks like the only thing that one does not need to replace is the power supply and case. But who knows maybe the new HDCP 2.2 motherboards will also require a new power supply or case design (hopefully not, but who knows). By the end of 2017 we should know more. I have a high-end PC I built in 2015, and it would be a disappointment if I have to sell everything to play 4K Ultra HD Blu-rays. At the very least it would be nice if consumers could buy the 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray drive and a old computer would downscale it to 1080P, however all the hardware has to be AACS 2.0 compatible, that means all new hardware, and if its all new hardware why stop at the monitor. People spending all that money to play 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs are going to spend $700+ on the desktop monitor to make sure its HDCP 2.2 compatible for true 4K Ultra HD quality, instead of outputting downscaled 1080P (over time HDCP 2.2 desktop monitors with 4K Ultra HD quality should be priced in the $300-$500+ area).

5 years from now this will not be a big deal as long as the Blu-ray format is still around. The average person upgrades their PC or Laptop every 5 years. Some people wait 10+ years before upgrading. They better start offering all PC's with BD-ROM drives built in, I walked in a few stores the other day and there was only a choice between a DVD-ROM drive in a Laptop or no drive at all. On top of that issue all the desktop computers had DVD-ROM only drives (or recordable DVD drive). The industry needs to go 100% BD-ROM drives. The problem is software companies are not releasing programs on Blu-ray discs, its either DVD-ROM or a download version. Then on top of that issue playing 1080P Blu-ray discs on a existing PC costs more then a standalone Blu-ray player (Normally around $200 for both the BD-ROM drive and software unless one gets a special bundle price for both the drive and older version of the software for around $80). When one can get a more reliable name brand standalone Sony Blu-ray player for around $50, many people have decided to skip using their PC's for Blu-ray movie watching.
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Old 01-28-2017, 08:03 PM   #9
HDTV1080P HDTV1080P is offline
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Some families around the United States have around 8-10 desktop PC’s and/or Laptop PC’s that are capable of playing standard Blu-ray discs and Blu-ray 3D discs. Just imagine the cost it would be for them to upgrade around 8-10 PC’s to play 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs.

If its only one PC someone is upgrading its no big deal, but when several people are living in a home, that changes. The reality is most people in the United States and the rest of the world will just purchase a standalone 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player for under $200 instead of spending several thousands of dollars for each new Windows PC that is capable of playing the new optical discs. Also by Christmas 2017 or sometime in 2018 consumers will most likely be able to purchase a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player for under $100.
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Old 01-28-2017, 08:55 PM   #10
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I've been wrapping my own PC's since the 80386. It has always been costly to be on the cutting edge, and it has never been possible to stay there more than 6-12 mos. at best before significant upgrade(s) or a replacement is necessary. I could give you a list a mile long of changes/things that drove upgrades or replacements, and none of them were as insignificant as the ability to play Ultra HD discs - I'm sorry but I just don't view the capability to watch a movie as something mission critical to PC's. And yes, I'm aware that some people use PC's as media centers, been there done that.

Ironically, in this case (ie. Ultra HD support), being on the bleeding edge actually hurts as mid-level Skylake CPU's dating to 2015 support SGX, and even though Pio suggests the use of Intel 200 series mobos, certainly there are other mobos out there that can support SGX, provided their manufacturer does the BIOS update(s) needed.

Bottomline, manufacturers and many users don't think of the capability to view movies as an industry standard feature for PC's. So why would they want to add that feature at significant extra manufacturing cost(s) ? Everything today is about cheap, cheaper, cheapest ...
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:36 PM   #11
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give it time, some one will crack the security simply because the enjoy the challenge, in the same way that windows was installed nateively on a wintel mac.

I would worry more about commerecial scale piracy from sites that specalize in that sort of thing.

So just how effective are anti piracy tralers at the start of home movies?
Looks like Knock off Nigel is alive and well
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratford View Post
give it time, some one will crack the security simply because the enjoy the challenge, in the same way that windows was installed nateively on a wintel mac.
Exactly, which is the big problem with forcing people who just wanna watch their UHD Blu-rays through their computers to go through all this expensive and frustrating mess while criminals who pirate movies will quickly find a solution to bypass all of this. This only harms good honest customers, not the criminals it is intended for.
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Old 02-12-2017, 06:35 PM   #13
HDTV1080P HDTV1080P is offline
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This also hurts the success of the new 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray format. Some people will stick with DVD-ROM drives only, or maybe upgrade to standard BD-ROM. But most people for the next 5 years will stay away from 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs when it comes to watching on a PC.


There are some people that have jobs where they travel 80% of the time, and they might want a 4K Laptop computer for movie watching. Also for vacations, a 4K laptop is nice to have. For movie reviewers and casual movie watching 4K desktop computers are ideal. This encryption is suppose to be very good, so 100% hardware upgrade might be the only solution.
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Old 02-13-2017, 10:44 PM   #14
MisterXDTV MisterXDTV is offline
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This doesn't make any sense: if you download a 4K discs rip from the internet you can watch it on many PCs....

If you actually want to BUY the discs, you can't watch them.. How is this acceptable???

They are punishing customers, not pirates this way...

HDCP 2.2 is the weak link of the chain and has already been defeated, allowing 4K captures
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:17 AM   #15
TM2-Megatron TM2-Megatron is offline
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Didn't the original HDCP standard cause similar headaches back in the day? This doesn't really seem all that outrageous, since we all know studios will do what they feel is necessary to prevent piracy.

Anyway, perhaps the good folks and RedFox will find a way to circumvent the newest version of HDCP as they did with the Blu-Ray version, removing the necessity of having comptible hardware.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:46 AM   #16
MisterXDTV MisterXDTV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TM2-Megatron View Post
Didn't the original HDCP standard cause similar headaches back in the day? This doesn't really seem all that outrageous, since we all know studios will do what they feel is necessary to prevent piracy.

Anyway, perhaps the good folks and RedFox will find a way to circumvent the newest version of HDCP as they did with the Blu-Ray version, removing the necessity of having comptible hardware.
HDCP 2.2 is already broken. We are talking about AACS 2.0 here that's the protection on the disc.

HDCP is a display protection, AACS is a disc protection
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:32 PM   #17
DVD Phreak DVD Phreak is offline
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Back to the original point about the considerable amount of PC upgrade needed to play UHD BD, let's hope the industry would create cheap, miniature "PC sticks" that would be UHD BD-enabled. Currently there are $100-$500 PC sticks that run real Windows, and they are made for plugging into the TV for convenient media playback from a PC. But they are underpowered and have very little storage space, and it will be years before we see a powerful enough UHD BD-capable versions of them, if ever.
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:25 PM   #18
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Until 4K discs are truly 4K and not just upscales from 2K digital intermediates, I won't buy any hardware to play them on at all. I suspect in a few years most of these early 2K digital intermediate sourced titles will be re-released in "special" improved editions that are actually 4K, thereby encouraging early adopters to buy them all over again.

As it stands, I feel that many of these 4K discs are products with false advertising. They are not 4K; they are 2K upscaled.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:39 PM   #19
s_har s_har is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
Until 4K discs are truly 4K and not just upscales from 2K digital intermediates, I won't buy any hardware to play them on at all. I suspect in a few years most of these early 2K digital intermediate sourced titles will be re-released in "special" improved editions that are actually 4K, thereby encouraging early adopters to buy them all over again.

As it stands, I feel that many of these 4K discs are products with false advertising. They are not 4K; they are 2K upscaled.
I totally agree. I think they made a huge mistake in naming it 4K UHD Blu-ray given the majority of all films the past 15 years, and still new ones being made today, only having 2K masters.
I still think upscaled 2K UHD Blu-rays is a nice improvement overall due to HDR so it's mostly the name and marketing that's the problem here, not the format itself. They really should have called it 'HDR Blu-ray' instead in my opinion.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s_har View Post
I totally agree. I think they made a huge mistake in naming it 4K UHD Blu-ray given the majority of all films the past 15 years, and still new ones being made today, only having 2K masters.
I still think upscaled 2K UHD Blu-rays is a nice improvement overall due to HDR so it's mostly the name and marketing that's the problem here, not the format itself. They really should have called it 'HDR Blu-ray' instead in my opinion.
We have to remember that a huge amount of films contain 2K content as their lowest resolution (so if they're shot in 4K they have 2K effects), so what you're seeing in theatres depending on the distribution methods might only be 2K anyway. But with UHD BD there's a huge potential of films that predate digital effects to have fantastic re-masters.

And I can't remember anyone ever complaining that the films they see in theatres have 2K effects in them mixed with 35mm live-action or higher than 4K live-action footage.

I'm the first one to complain about Faux-K, but UHD BDs are all 38402160 (which isn't 4K, it's 4096x2160, don't get me started on that one!) and in UHD. BDs themselves have loads of titles that feature upscaling, whether it's standard definition effects or effects that were only rendered in 1K, there's always going to be content that doesn't match the output whether it's upscaled or downscaled.

I've always said there should have been a Certified 4K (as some consumers would gravitate towards them) label for full 4K content, but one could argue that once a 4K master is struck with HDR then it's 4K anyway.
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