Ultra HD Blu-ray (4K) Disks and High Dynamic Range (HDR) for Dummies

[Staying Salty]

Click spoiler to show theme:

[Show spoiler]hdrd5.jpg

Quick Links:
Disc freezes, Should I clean my disc?
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
Picture goes wonky. Can a minimum 6' Premium Certified cable fix it?
Dolby Vision Reviews by Geoff D
HDR10 Reviews by Geoff D

This thread is intended to help those who are interested in this exciting new format to make informed decisions when purchasing discs and their equipment; be it upgrading from DVD, Blu-ray or their current 4K system. This thread is a broad overview and is focused on 4K discs. It will link to threads or posts for detail information on the displays, players, receivers, and the discs themselves. I use the term consensus as meaning the majority of the members agree with the statement. The consensus is that a 4K disc provides an upgrade to the majority of Blu-ray movies and DVDs, ranging from somewhat to WOW. That a 4K disc will show improvement over streaming content. That High Dynamic Range (HDR) is the compelling feature to upgrade to 4K.

HDR allows a scene to show detail in a bright area and at the same time show detail in a darker area. HDR is on all but a few 4K discs. Also associated with 4K is Wide Color Gamut (WCG). This allows the display to show a wider range of colors. The majority of the 4K discs are graded from a 1,000 or 4,000 nit display. The metadata generated is used to determine the lighting of a scene. Your display tone maps this metadata to the capabilities of your display. The higher the nits your display can generate the less it needs to tone map. All quality HDR 4k displays can present an outstanding picture.

4K HDR delivers two types of metadata. Static, which means the entire movie, has an overall grade for light and dark. The other is dynamic, which means that each scene or even frame can be adjusted to your display as the lighting dictates.

There are three current forms of HDR:
1. HDR10 is 10 bits, is the base layer for all 4K HDR discs, and is static. All 4K displays/players can play this base layer.
2. Dolby Vision (DV) is 12 bits, is an optional second layer, and is dynamic. Adjusts brightness levels on a frame-by-frame basis. Requires a DV capable display and player.
3. HDR10+ is 10 bits, is an optional second layer, and is dynamic. Adjusts brightness levels on a scene-by-scene basis. Requires a HDR10+ capable display and player.

Proposed optional 4K HDR format:
1. Technicolor is 10 bits, is dynamic. Requires HDMI 2.1.

Overall HDR support: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...31&postcount=7

HDR details may be found at: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=276605 and http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...lor-gamut-wcg/

Displays:

There are three principle displays. LCDs, OLEDs, and Projectors. The consensus is there are no perfect displays. All have their individual strengths and weakness. Research the reviews and check the displays out yourself to determine what looks best to you. There is no wrong choice. Some of these links have a “Help me chose“ sticky.

1. LCDs: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...?daysprune=30:
2. OLEDs: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...anels-general/
3. Projectors: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig.../?daysprune=30

Display Manufactures and Studio support of HDR and Automated Calibration: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...41&postcount=8

The settings you should change immediately after buying a new TV.

Players:

All players will play the base layer HDR10. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-bl.../?daysprune=30. Computers and gaming consoles are addressed in following posts. The capability to play the optional HDR layer will be shown separately:

1. Dolby Vision: LG UBK90, UP970; Oppo UDP-203*, UDP-205*; Philips BDP7302, BDP7502; Pioneer UDP-LX500*, UDP-LX800*; Sony UBP-X700*

2. HDR10+: SAMSUNG UBD-M9500

3. Technicolor: TBD

4. Dolby Vision/HDR10+: Cambridge Audio CXUHD*; Panasonic UB820 (UB824)*, UB9000*, UB9004*

* Supports Dolby Vision low latency profile

Help me chose a player: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-bl...er-thread.html

Receivers:

1. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=292987
2. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec.../?daysprune=30

Cables/HDMI:

And don’t forget a HDMI cable with "Premium HDMI Cable" certification. It is recommended they be at least 6 feet in length. Poor performing HDMI cables can cause you a lot of frustration:

Picture goes wonky. Can a minimum 6' Premium Certified cable fix it?
HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

Discs (finally the reason for it all):

1. List of all released 4K discs: http://ultrahd.highdefdigest.com/rel...istorical.html
2. Reviews of all 4k discs: https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdispl...prune=-1&f=203
3. Formal Reviews of most 4K discs: http://ultrahd.highdefdigest.com/reviews.html
4. Formal Reviews of most 4K discs: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-of...-disc-reviews/
5. Announced 4K discs: http://ultrahd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html
6. Announced 4K discs: https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdispl...prune=-1&f=203
7. Dolby Vision discs: List of UHDs that contain Dolby Vision
8. HDR10+ discs: List of UHDs that contain HDR10+
9. Technicolor discs: TBD
10. Dolby Vision Reviews by Geoff D
11. HDR10 Reviews by Geoff D

Any questions should be asked in the above linked threads, as they will enable you to get the quickest answer from the SMEs. Feel free to ask questions here if you can’t find an appropriate thread. Also your feedback is welcomed.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) may be found here:https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...62&postcount=4

Enjoy you movies.

[Staying Salty]

Xbox One S:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=278780

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/141-xb...u-ray-hdr.html

Xbox One X:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/141-xb...-x-thread.html

[Staying Salty]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=287599

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...ter-computers/

I’m pretty sure there are no “Dummies” clicking these links.

[Staying Salty]

Where can I find detailed Dolby Vision 4K BD Reviews?

Where can I find detailed HDR10 4K BD Reviews?

Disc freezes, Should I clean my disc?

HDR - Flavors and Best Practices

What are the initial settings for my TV?

Digging deeper into Wide Color Gamut

Are 4K discs region locked?

Are films shot in HDR?

Why do some of my 4K discs look too dark?

Why do some of my 4K discs look too dark during day time viewing?

Do all 4K Ultra Blu-rays have HDR?

Why does an older movie occasionally look grainy?

What is 4K HDR Dynamic Metadata?

An example of Static vs Dynamic Metadata

How to set up my new HDR TV?

Why should I have my set calibrated?

Picture goes wonky. Can a minimum 6' Premium Certified cable fix it?

I just want to plug and play. What mode(s) should I use on my OLED?

Why Isn’t the 4K TV Picture Better Than HD?

What is gamma and HDR EOTF on TVs?

Can I make my Disney 4K Dolby Atmos sound better?

Why do I Have to Watch Ads before my Blu-ray Movie?

What is Electro-Optical Transfer Function (EOTF)?

Why do I need to know what "HDMI 4K/24 YCbCr 4:2:2 12-bit HDR10 BT.2020" means?

TVs supporting the latest version of Dolby Vision HDR on Xbox?

Is there literally a Dolby Vision encode layer, on top of the HDR 10 encode layer on the disc?

Is there any real reason to go beyond 1,000 nits in range?

Are You Ready for Your HDR Delivery?

How are Hollywood movies color graded for HDR & SDR?

Why your Avengers UHD BluRays aren’t actually 4K?

What is Full Enhancement Layer (FEL) and Minimal Enhancement Layer (MEL) Dolby Vision?

Comments from a respected calibrator on Dolby Vision and HDR

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Only buy


They don't cost much.

Your picture will not display dependably without it.

[Staying Salty]

For those who are interested in Dolby Vision, your receiver must be Dolby Vision Certified to pass thru the DV signal. If it is not, your display will only show the HDR10 picture.

Receivers:

Denon AVR-S730H, Denon AVR-S930H, Denon AVR-X1400H, Denon AVR-X2400H, Denon AVR-X3400H, Denon AVR-X4400H, Denon AVR-X6400H, Integra DRX-2.1, Integra DRX-3.1, Integra DTM-7, Marantz NR1508, Marantz NR1608, Marantz SR5012, Marantz SR6012, Marantz SR7012, Marantz SR8012, Onkyo TX-8270, Onkyo TX-NR575, Onkyo TX-NR676, Onkyo TX-NR777, Onkyo TX-RZ620, Onkyo TX-RZ720, Onkyo TX-RZ820, Pioneer VSX-832, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX102, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX302

Pending firmware update: Anthem MRX 520, Anthem MRX 720, Anthem MRX 1120, Denon AVR-S710W, Denon AVR-S720W, Denon AVR-S910W, Denon AVR-S920W, Denon AVR-X1200W, Denon AVR-X1300W, Denon AVR-X2200W, Denon AVR-X2300W, Denon AVR-X3200W, Denon AVR-X3300W, Denon AVR-X4200W, Denon AVR-X4300H, Denon AVR-X6200W, Denon AVR-X6300H, Denon AVR-X7200WA, Marantz NR1607, Marantz SR5010, Marantz SR5011, Marantz SR6010, Marantz SR6011, Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR7011, Onkyo TX-NR555, Onkyo TX-NR656, Onkyo TX-NR757, Onkyo TX-RZ610, Onkyo TX-RZ710, Onkyo TX-RZ810, Onkyo TX-RZ1100, Onkyo TX-RZ3100, Onkyo TX-RZ5100, Sony STR-DN1080, Sony STR-ZA810ES, Sony STR-ZA1100ES, Sony STR-ZA2100ES, Sony STR-ZA3100ES, Sony STR-ZA5000ES, Yamaha RX-V383, Yamaha RX-V483, Yamaha RX-V583, Yamaha RX-V681, Yamaha RX-V683, Yamaha RX-V781, Yamaha RX-A670, Yamaha RX-A760, Yamaha RX-A770, Yamaha RX-A860, Yamaha RX-A870, Yamaha RX-A1060, Yamaha RX-A1070, Yamaha RX-A2060, Yamaha RX-A2070, Yamaha RX-A3060, Yamaha RX-A3070

Pre-Amplifier/Processors:

Marantz AV7704, McIntosh MX160

Pending firmware update: Anthem AVM 60, Marantz AV7702MKII, Marantz AV7703, Marantz AV8802A, Yamaha CX-A5100

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by DanBa

HDR Ecosystem Tracker update fall 2019
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hdr-e...oeri-geutskens

.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Latest Multi-HDR table:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59184152



. Deleted the columns "YouTube HDR VP9-PQ / VP9-HLG", and replaced by the new lines "Codec HEVC / VP9.2 / AV1": YouTube HDR can also be coded in AV1
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post56949056

. Added the column "HFR 100p/120p (sports, games, …)"
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post54845156

. Changed the name of the column "Mura/defect correction" to "Panel uniformity control": more comprehensive

. Added Xiaomi

.

[d514]

There were some test channels on satellite Astra 19.2 (Europe) both for HLG and Technicolor HDR. Both of them made my Samsung TV switch to HDR mode. (The channels are not available at the moment, but there is another one that probably uses HLG. But the TV's info bar just says "HDR" so I don't know.)

So the "HDR support status August 2017" is not correct because Samsung supports HLG.

[visual0ne]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

For those who are interested in Dolby Vision, your receiver must be Dolby Vision Certified to pass thru the DV signal. If it is not, your display will only show the HDR10 picture.

Receivers:

Denon AVR-S730H, Denon AVR-S930H, Denon AVR-X1400H, Denon AVR-X2400H, Denon AVR-X3400H, Denon AVR-X4400H, Denon AVR-X6400H, Integra DRX-2.1, Integra DRX-3.1, Integra DTM-7, Marantz NR1508, Marantz NR1608, Marantz SR5012, Marantz SR6012, Marantz SR7012, Marantz SR8012, Onkyo TX-8270, Onkyo TX-NR575, Onkyo TX-NR676, Onkyo TX-NR777, Onkyo TX-RZ620, Onkyo TX-RZ720, Onkyo TX-RZ820, Pioneer VSX-832, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX102, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX302

Pending firmware update: Anthem MRX 520, Anthem MRX 720, Anthem MRX 1120, Denon AVR-S710W, Denon AVR-S720W, Denon AVR-S910W, Denon AVR-S920W, Denon AVR-X1200W, Denon AVR-X1300W, Denon AVR-X2200W, Denon AVR-X2300W, Denon AVR-X3200W, Denon AVR-X3300W, Denon AVR-X4200W, Denon AVR-X4300H, Denon AVR-X6200W, Denon AVR-X6300H, Denon AVR-X7200WA, Marantz NR1607, Marantz SR5010, Marantz SR5011, Marantz SR6010, Marantz SR6011, Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR7011, Onkyo TX-NR555, Onkyo TX-NR656, Onkyo TX-NR757, Onkyo TX-RZ610, Onkyo TX-RZ710, Onkyo TX-RZ810, Onkyo TX-RZ1100, Onkyo TX-RZ3100, Onkyo TX-RZ5100, Sony STR-DN1080, Sony STR-ZA810ES, Sony STR-ZA1100ES, Sony STR-ZA2100ES, Sony STR-ZA3100ES, Sony STR-ZA5000ES, Yamaha RX-V383, Yamaha RX-V483, Yamaha RX-V583, Yamaha RX-V681, Yamaha RX-V683, Yamaha RX-V781, Yamaha RX-A670, Yamaha RX-A760, Yamaha RX-A770, Yamaha RX-A860, Yamaha RX-A870, Yamaha RX-A1060, Yamaha RX-A1070, Yamaha RX-A2060, Yamaha RX-A2070, Yamaha RX-A3060, Yamaha RX-A3070

Pre-Amplifier/Processors:

Marantz AV7704, McIntosh MX160

Pending firmware update: Anthem AVM 60, Marantz AV7702MKII, Marantz AV7703, Marantz AV8802A, Yamaha CX-A5100

Can you site your source? I have a Denon avr-s910w and I've not seen any information about a Dolby Vision firmware update.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by d514

There were some test channels on satellite Astra 19.2 (Europe) both for HLG and Technicolor HDR. Both of them made my Samsung TV switch to HDR mode. (The channels are not available at the moment, but there is another one that probably uses HLG. But the TV's info bar just says "HDR" so I don't know.)

So the "HDR support status August 2017" is not correct because Samsung supports HLG.

Your TV supports Technicolor HDR?

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by visual0ne

Can you site your source? I have a Denon avr-s910w and I've not seen any information about a Dolby Vision firmware update.

The AVSForum http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-hdr-home.html

[d514]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Your TV supports Technicolor HDR?

All I can say is that there was a test channel called "Technicolor HDR" and that my TV switched into HDR mode on that channel. Since the info bar on the TV only says HDR it's possible that it was some other format...

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by d514

All I can say is that there was a test channel called "Technicolor HDR" and that my TV switched into HDR mode on that channel. Since the info bar on the TV only says HDR it's possible that it was some other format...

Would be interesting if someone could confirm that this channel actually displays content in Technicolor HDR.

I'm very skeptical about this TV supporting that format, though.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by d514

All I can say is that there was a test channel called "Technicolor HDR" and that my TV switched into HDR mode on that channel. Since the info bar on the TV only says HDR it's possible that it was some other format...

Looking into it, it does seems as though there is a Technicolor HDR stream, therefore I doubt they would be broadcasting in another format.

So your settings (backlight, contrast) automatically max out when viewing that channel?

Interesting.

What firmware are you on, by the way?

[Staying Salty]

https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/produ...campaign=CXUHD

Designed without DACs for noise reduction and improved audio and picture quality, the CXUHD supports the latest in 4K technologies including UHD discs, HDR and Dolby Vision; giving you a reference quality player capable of handling almost any video or audio file format you can throw at it.

[Staying Salty]

Xbox One X review

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/xbox-one-x

[Staying Salty]

Tbd

[Staying Salty]

Question: Are 4K discs region locked as most Blu-ray discs are?

Answer: There is no region locking of 4k discs.

[Staying Salty]

A tone mapping discussion.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

BUT this is a title that has not been mastered to anything like as bright as conventional HDR so the more extreme the tone mapping the dimmer and darker that it will turn out to be. The irony is that it's hardly got 250 nits peak in the whole presentation so you'd think even a mere 300-nit HDR TV would be able to handle it 'as is', right? Er...no. Because it's been put into a 4000-nit container (as per usual for Warners) then that container is all that the mapping algorithm is seeing, so instead of clipping the presentation to fit said 300-nit TV it's trying to squeeze what it thinks is 4000 nits' worth down into it and the APL takes a hell of a nose-dive as a result.

Originally Posted by Pyoko

I thought PQ was absolute values for exactly this reason, is it really possible for this to be an issue? It would render the entire idea behind the system pointless. Sure, unless you wanted ugly, hard clipping you'd need to reserve a bit at the top end in order to compress the highlights for a soft roll-off, but it shouldn't affect that much.

I figured the issue people had with Goodfellas was simply too bright of an environment for watching dark content without the ability to increase the brightness like with SDR, or does it actually appear much darker than the Blu-ray at 120 nits?

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Is it possible? Why do you think people have been blathering on about dynamic metadata for the past 18 months? PQ does indeed code to absolute values but this is the ENTIRE crux of the issue between static display-derived metadata and dynamic content-derived metadata: all the static mastering data does is tell you the maximum, average and minimum levels of the content as a whole, NOT what those absolute values should be rendered at on a scene-by-scene basis.

Most TVs are taking that static container at face value and applying a tone map that takes none of the content into account, and the tone mapping approach itself varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some do indeed prefer to clip to keep the APL high, some will apply a full tone map to squeeze the range down into whatever display (apparently Dolby's own HDR10 mapper does this) which will KILL the APL on a UHD like Goodfellas, and some use a combination of both, mapping it out close to a point that the TV can handle and clipping the rest down. And the lower down the rung you go in terms of the display and the range it can handle, the more severe the mapping has to be. Conversely, the more range you've got then the mapping can be eased off.

Some TVs are rocking to their own beat, e.g. recent LG OLEDs have a faux-dynamic mode which processes the content to create its own scene-by-scene interpretation and Sony do something similar, on their higher end sets they ignore the static mastering data and clip all content to whatever level your settings are at whilst generating dynamic brightness levels. Basically with static HDR10 we're all still at the mercy of our gear and how it thinks it should map the content for us, whereas with something like Dolby Vision the display is told how to best map the content.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And that's the thing: the hard clip of an SDR conversion would likely be better for this title than a low-nit HDR display which did a tone map to the entire 4000 nit mastering container.

Originally Posted by Pyoko

So what you are saying is basically that the biggest reason for the existence of DV/dynamic metadata, apart from creators having slightly better control of the final output, is that TV manufacturers are complete idiots?

I get that you can do it a bit differently, but why would you ever tone-map anything so far down into the range that it would make it significantly darker than even the SDR presentation of the same material? All the TV has to do is know its peak brightness and then start to roll off the highlights a bit before that, and it'll be fine 95% of the time since that's more or less what SDR presentations usually are.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That is EXACTLY what I am saying re: the idiocy. They all have different approaches to static HDR mapping. Something that's properly tailored for the display, some kind of standardised mapper across the industry with a set amount of nits that could be adjusted would've been ideal as you say, but in lieu of that you get the varying approaches as outlined above. (Panasonic have tried to get around this by providing their own adjustable HDR mapping on their players)

As for "why make it darker than SDR?", the point is that they don't know they're doing that with, say, this movie in particular. The tone maps across the manufacturers are designed to work in set ways (mostly): the mapping isn't changing from movie to movie so if they're given content that has a 4000-nit container but also a nice high APL then it'll probably look fine on a lower tier set that does a full tone mapping, although still not an exact SDR clone because this is a fundamentally different EOTF to begin with. But if another piece of content has a lower APL - and bear in mind that objective analysis has proven some UHDs actually have a lower APL than even the 120-nit SDR presentation - then using that exact same tone map isn't going to do it any favours.

Again: this is basically why dynamic metadata is a thing.

Originally Posted by Pyoko

I guess I've always just seen HDR as an extension. You have your ~120 nit range that's fine in a dim room, and nominally that range should never have to be touched, plus uncompressed highlights up to the peak of the display. To me it sounds like they're needlessly trying to complicate things, the peak brightness of the content or the container or whatever should be completely irrelevant. The method I posted would be an "it just works" solution for the vast majority of situations. Want less compressed/clipped highlights? Get more nits. Simple.

I guess it's moot with dynamic metadata but I really have to question if it's going to be all that different. Either way you need to know the capabilities of the display to do it properly and the cynic in me says some manufacturers might not care to keep track of and individually tailor sets according to that, so they just end up doing dumb one-size-fits-none solutions.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Depends. Hybrid Log Gamma is so-called because the first part of the curve acts much like conventional gamma and can be shown on an SDR display 'as is', and because it's a relative luminance system (with OOTF rendering built into the target display) then it will easily adapt to whatever brightness is waiting for it without the need for any metadata at all. But PQ does not act in this fashion, like SDR with HDR bolted on top, it's a very different EOTF with absolute values and so it's not going to react the exact same way as an SDR version when presented with an SDR-style curve or HDR-lite display. HDR grades are very much their own thing and if the content providers want to go for a version that has less APL than the SDR, say, then that's entirely their prerogative.

Funny you should mention the capabilities of the display, did you know that when a TV is Dolby Vision compatible it actually includes a "golden reference" for that display's specs so that it actually knows just what to map it to? Dolby even claim to take into account things like backlighting (for LCD) when working up these references so the mapping will properly leverage all aspects of the display, not just the nits and colour coverage but actual tech foibles too. The thing about HDR10+ is that although it's providing dynamic metadata there is still no set display standard on what to map it to, so while I'm quite sure it will be more nuanced than static we may still find ourselves with greatly differing implementations from one manufacturer to another.