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Old 09-21-2020, 07:35 PM   #6121
Geoff D Geoff D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cappyj View Post
Why does it sometimes 'optimize' when it's less than 1,000 nits? Have it set to OLED, and usually the HDMI video out will be set to 1,000 (if the Max is greater). But on some titles that are less (wish I could remember, but I remember seeing ~940 as the max for the content and then the HDMI is cutoff at that). Wasn't expecting that. Is it still trying to optimize the curve knowing that the max of the title is less than 1,000?
Not sure I follow. If the disc is on or below 1000 nits for either MaxCLL or maximum display luminance then turning the Optimiser on literally does nothing to the image itself when it's on OLED or Medium/High (as both are 1000 nits). It will still adjust the metadata that's being output (usually changing it to 1000 nits MaxCLL and 800 nits MaxFALL), yes, but not the actual image itself.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:37 PM   #6122
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Take Geoffs word over mine. The man's word is almost gospel on all things technology related. Though bare in mind he does have the eyes of a hawk. So you might not see much banding yourself.

And i don't know if certain displays and manufacturers are more sustainable to banding issues. I'm sure Geoff will expand on that. As an OLED user, I can't say banding has been an issue in my usage case.
Personally I have also never noticed banding either, although I don't doubt it's there in some instances. I'd like a couple example scenes/movies to test as well.
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:27 PM   #6123
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BTW, I upgraded my 9000 to 1.66. Found the firmware on Panasonic.

I wrote up some basic instructions (theirs are a bit incomplete). I should have taken more notes when I was doing it, but was expecting it to just all happen automatically, including restarts.

https://github.com/Mobe1969/miniDSPB...irmware-Update

Aside from external subtitles, not sure what else it does. It doesn't fix the DV issues.
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:29 PM   #6124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobe1969 View Post
BTW, I upgraded my 9000 to 1.66. Found the firmware on Panasonic.

I wrote up some basic instructions (theirs are a bit incomplete). I should have taken more notes when I was doing it, but was expecting it to just all happen automatically, including restarts.

https://github.com/Mobe1969/miniDSPB...irmware-Update

Aside from external subtitles, not sure what else it does. It doesn't fix the DV issues.
That still says it's the Chinese firmware. So it worked to update your player and it didn't change the setup to Chinese or anything?
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:31 PM   #6125
Mobe1969 Mobe1969 is offline
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Yes, it has no effect on movie playback.
High Clarity sound does have a great effect on movie playback - it turns off the display during playback, which is great for light controlled projector rooms. Unlike the oppo though, it is always off, and clicking Play doesn't momentarily show the display so you can see where you are time wise in the film. I wish there was a way to do this, app or otherwise.
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:45 PM   #6126
Geoff D Geoff D is offline
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Personally I have also never noticed banding either, although I don't doubt it's there in some instances. I'd like a couple example scenes/movies to test as well.
It's subtle, not blatant. And it depends on the content. It's pretty much the same reason why owners of some TVs report seeing banding on, say, the Sony disc of BR2049 even with no Optimiser involved, because with a properly mastered source there's enough 'headroom' in the gradations so that the gack that's being added by the TV's strangled processing isn't visibly damaging. But with something that's right on the edge of banding like the Sony BR2049 then it can be tipped over the edge by processing that isn't all the way transparent. As such, I'd rather leave the Optimiser off unless I absolutely need to use it because I want as pure a signal path as possible.

If anyone has an HDR greyscale pattern then pull it up and just turn the Optimiser off and on, don't look at what it's mapping and just look at the gradations of greyscale, smooth ramps turn into jagged shite when the Optimiser is activated.

A previous post on the subject is below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
In other news, I noticed some banding on HDR greyscale ramps when the HDR Optimiser is engaged. This is something that's always been in the back of my mind re: the Optimiser, whether it had enough of an overhead with bit depth to be able to truly process these images in a 'lossless' fashion, and unfortunately it definitely has an effect, visible in both test patterns (dem ramps) and real world content.

This isn't related to the actual tone mapping itself of the Optimiser because this happens when the Optimiser circuit is engaged and the image isn't being outwardly modified at all, e.g. playing 1000-nit MDL content on the 1500-nit Super High mode. There's no objectively measurable difference on such content re: mapping or light levels with it on or off, but simply by turning the circuit 'on' the image is being routed thru that processing, and it shows.

It's REALLY hard to capture the ramps in a photo, all they do is come out looking awful either way but you'll just have to take my word for it that the ramps are smooth as buttah without it. I looked at some real world content instead, stuff that I know from recent discussions in the UHD movies threads that can be tipped into bandingsville if the processing is throttling the bit depth somewhere. I checked the final shot of Exodus on UHD disc where they're all walking into the distance with the bright sky overhead, something that Velvet mentioned, and while the gradations look rather good with the Optimiser off there's a faint but definite 'rainbow' effect that occurs with the Optimiser on, even though this title isn't being remapped at all (MaxCLL o nit, MaxMDL 1100-nit)

Another example is the Sony UHD disc of Blade Runner 2049 which had some quite vocal protests from some members who could see bad banding on their TVs, whereas it looked *slightly* questionable on mine but nothing overtly murderous. The MaxMDL is 4000 nits but the MaxCLL is 457 nits so there's no remapping going on here by the player with the Optimiser on but, again, banding in some scenes is quite pronounced with it enabled. This I did manage to get a photo of, make of it what you will (factoring in the extra compression from the image hoster):

Optimiser OFF



Optimiser ON



It might be hard to make out but there's a definite 'rainbow' effect in the ON pic about three-quarters of the way up, as well as visible false contouring in the 'hump' just below it. I've yet to check this with content that has better-defined gradations and I'm fairly certain that it won't be too obvious because a better source = cleaner processing thereof, 'twas ever thus, but with stuff that runs out of bit depth real fast then it's not a pretty sight.

Yes, I'm running the Panny in upsampled 12-bit output BUT I've checked this with the 10-bit priority output as well and the exact same effects are visible. And double yes, people will say "well, don't leave it on then with BR2049 if you don't need to do any remapping!" but that's not the point as I can also see the banding on a 0-10000 nit greyscale ramp. I've used those specific examples of actual content to show that this is a quirk with the Optimiser's processing pathway, regardless of it doing any remapping or not.

Boy, I bet y'all are SO glad I bought one of these.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:01 PM   #6127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
That still says it's the Chinese firmware. So it worked to update your player and it didn't change the setup to Chinese or anything?
No, didn't change anything.

Oddly the instructions the give with screenshots show all the text English. And all the instructions are in English.

On external subs, I've another link on my page on how to do it. It is cryptic like the oppo. Dumb and unintuitive.

https://github.com/Mobe1969/miniDSPB...rnal-Subtitles
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:43 PM   #6128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobe1969 View Post
High Clarity sound does have a great effect on movie playback - it turns off the display during playback, which is great for light controlled projector rooms. Unlike the oppo though, it is always off, and clicking Play doesn't momentarily show the display so you can see where you are time wise in the film. I wish there was a way to do this, app or otherwise.
Not sure if it does anything, but have you tried pressing the GREEN button on your remote?

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Originally Posted by Mobe1969 View Post
No, didn't change anything.
They player wasn't hungry for another firmware update 10 minutes later?
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:11 PM   #6129
Mobe1969 Mobe1969 is offline
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Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
Not sure if it does anything, but have you tried pressing the GREEN button on your remote?



They player wasn't hungry for another firmware update 10 minutes later?
Not sure- what does that do? I use a harmony so don't actually have that mapped. I'll give it a go.

What do you mean on the hungry for another firmware update?
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:33 PM   #6130
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Not sure- what does that do? I use a harmony so don't actually have that mapped. I'll give it a go.
I'm sure I read that it turned video on/off, but I can't find it in the manual.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:59 PM   #6131
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
It's subtle, not blatant. And it depends on the content. It's pretty much the same reason why owners of some TVs report seeing banding on, say, the Sony disc of BR2049 even with no Optimiser involved, because with a properly mastered source there's enough 'headroom' in the gradations so that the gack that's being added by the TV's strangled processing isn't visibly damaging. But with something that's right on the edge of banding like the Sony BR2049 then it can be tipped over the edge by processing that isn't all the way transparent. As such, I'd rather leave the Optimiser off unless I absolutely need to use it because I want as pure a signal path as possible.

If anyone has an HDR greyscale pattern then pull it up and just turn the Optimiser off and on, don't look at what it's mapping and just look at the gradations of greyscale, smooth ramps turn into jagged shite when the Optimiser is activated.

A previous post on the subject is below.
Awesome, I have BR2049 so I can check it out...umm, what timestamp is that?

I will also check out the greyscale..I have the S&M UHD disc.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:11 PM   #6132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobe1969 View Post
Not sure- what does that do? I use a harmony so don't actually have that mapped. I'll give it a go.

What do you mean on the hungry for another firmware update?
I'm sure it's a joke about how, after eating at a "Chinese" restaurant, you're hungry 10 minutes later due to all the MSG in the buffet food.
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Old 09-22-2020, 05:51 PM   #6133
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I'm sure it's a joke about how, after eating at a "Chinese" restaurant, you're hungry 10 minutes later due to all the MSG in the buffet food.
I have the opposite effect. I eat a little chinese food, and I'm stuffed for 2 days. Doesn't stop me though, since I love me some chinese food
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:35 AM   #6134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Personally I have also never noticed banding either, although I don't doubt it's there in some instances. I'd like a couple example scenes/movies to test as well.
I have noticed banding from time to time (overall, pretty darn rare), but not sure if it's the optimizer and/or disc. But what Geoff pointed out doesn't surprise me. However, the pro's of the Optimizer far outweigh any issue it could be causing as my UHD projector set-up is very dependent on the player's tone mapping and optimizer. That will change on my next projector upgrade as I will then have true dynamic tone mapping and is supposedly the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
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Old 09-23-2020, 03:41 PM   #6135
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Regarding a new firmware...Some members on this forum have asked Robert for any info he may have or to inquire with his Panasonic contacts but so far he has remained silent.....I hate to be the pessimist but it's looking more and more everyday that Panasonic has either abandoned their players or simply do not care anymore. Just my 2 cent.
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Old 09-23-2020, 04:46 PM   #6136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyHitter View Post
I have noticed banding from time to time (overall, pretty darn rare), but not sure if it's the optimizer and/or disc. But what Geoff pointed out doesn't surprise me. However, the pro's of the Optimizer far outweigh any issue it could be causing as my UHD projector set-up is very dependent on the player's tone mapping and optimizer. That will change on my next projector upgrade as I will then have true dynamic tone mapping and is supposedly the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
I think I never noticed because I enable and use the "Smooth Gradation" setting on "Low" for my Sony TV.

I think my next round of movie watching, I'll try disabling that and the HDR Optimizer.
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Old 09-23-2020, 05:04 PM   #6137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
Regarding a new firmware...Some members on this forum have asked Robert for any info he may have or to inquire with his Panasonic contacts but so far he has remained silent.....I hate to be the pessimist but it's looking more and more everyday that Panasonic has either abandoned their players or simply do not care anymore. Just my 2 cent.
I wonder what the hold-up could be...
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Old 09-23-2020, 06:13 PM   #6138
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Occasionally on some older 1080p movies I get a white flashing in dark scenes, anyone know a fix for this? I have tried every setting and tried different hdmi cables but still happens quite often.
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Old 09-23-2020, 06:27 PM   #6139
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Occasionally on some older 1080p movies I get a white flashing in dark scenes, anyone know a fix for this? I have tried every setting and tried different hdmi cables but still happens quite often.
what type and model of TV?
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:44 PM   #6140
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what type and model of TV?
Sony XF9005
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