Pioneer BDR-XS08(U)MB-S

[BijouMan]

Pioneer has recently released the BDR-XS08 in Japan. Any idea when it will be released elsewhere? Only the BDR-XD08 and BDR-X13 are available here right now.

[HDTV1080P]

Pioneer products are engineered in Japan, therefore they usually are offered in Japan first and then the USA a year later.

Pioneer has several new and improved internal and external BD-ROM drives for the USA market (new Nov 2022 models). Most will play native 4K Blu-ray discs for those that own a rare Intel CPU and motherboard with SGX security technology. However I noticed that Pioneer has removed the 4K Blu-ray logo from all the new BD-ROM drives. This was most likely a wise decision, since only 1% of Windows 10 and Windows 11 PC’s are capable of playing 4K Blu-ray discs (less consumer complaints for an issue that is beyond Pioneers control. 4K Blu-ray playback from a PC is an issue that the BDA association decides, since the BDA only approved Intel based SGX security technology and not TPM 2.0 security technology. Everyone is using TPM 2.0 security technology now with Intel and AMD CPU based computers. I wish the BDA would approve TPM 2.0 security in addition to SGX security).

Nice selection of internal and external BD-ROM drives from Pioneer, and most also play 4K Blu-ray discs according to the specs (just have to study the specs before buying a drive).

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...omputer+Drives

The prices are higher on these new models for two reasons. One reason is inflation, and the second reason is there is a new premium models being made for videophiles. The BDR-S13U-X internal drive costs $290 (A Pioneer entry level 4K BD-ROM drive is now $175 and $119 for non 4K BD-ROM drive).

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-S13U-X ($290 high end internal model)

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-X13U-S (high performance external model for Laptop/Notebook PC’s) $230

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I wish the BDA would approve TPM 2.0 security in addition to SGX security).

This really isn't feasible for technical reasons. (Remember, TPM 2.0 has been around for many years, and predates SGX.) Basically, a TPM is a mini-HSM (hardware security module) that resides in your PC. It has RSA functionality and that's about it for useful stuff. (TPM 2.0 does allow for more flexibility in supported curves. I believe few chips actually support anything beyond DSA and RSA.) You can feed it encrypted data, and it can spit out the decrypted data, and you can sign data (or verify it but verification is trivial and can be done anywhere). The problem is that TPM is really small. It really doesn't have anything beyond a microscopic amount of RSA functionality. The ability to expand on those capabilities is limited, along with performance being somewhat slow. In practice, the only real use case for consumers is protecting sensitive data that must sit in at-rest storage (i.e., you can't delete it).

Let's take BitLocker as an example. The disk is encrypted. Where do you store the key required to decrypt everything? On the disk! But, the data's just sitting there, right? Why not just take the key? Well, the key itself is encrypted by the TPM. Assuming everything checks out on the system, the TPM can decrypt the key upon startup, and the key will automatically encrypt and decrypt as needed. The key will not sit on the TPM. It will sit in a place where it's easily accessible, otherwise disk access will slow to a crawl.

The point is that AACS is relatively complicated. There are just too many moving parts required to figure out the decryption key required for the disk, not to mention AACS uses ECDSA, which we can't guarantee is supported by all TPM chips. SGX was supposed to protect an entire section of memory and restrict the ability to use that memory. Properly deployed, it could've been reasonably secure. Alas, it had more holes than Swiss cheese. People are now potentially switching to things like full memory encryption, although even that will, in time, probably fall victim to theoretical and practical attacks.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by apollo828

This really isn't feasible for technical reasons. (Remember, TPM 2.0 has been around for many years, and predates SGX.) Basically, a TPM is a mini-HSM (hardware security module) that resides in your PC. It has RSA functionality and that's about it for useful stuff. (TPM 2.0 does allow for more flexibility in supported curves. I believe few chips actually support anything beyond DSA and RSA.) You can feed it encrypted data, and it can spit out the decrypted data, and you can sign data (or verify it but verification is trivial and can be done anywhere). The problem is that TPM is really small. It really doesn't have anything beyond a microscopic amount of RSA functionality. The ability to expand on those capabilities is limited, along with performance being somewhat slow. In practice, the only real use case for consumers is protecting sensitive data that must sit in at-rest storage (i.e., you can't delete it).

Let's take BitLocker as an example. The disk is encrypted. Where do you store the key required to decrypt everything? On the disk! But, the data's just sitting there, right? Why not just take the key? Well, the key itself is encrypted by the TPM. Assuming everything checks out on the system, the TPM can decrypt the key upon startup, and the key will automatically encrypt and decrypt as needed. The key will not sit on the TPM. It will sit in a place where it's easily accessible, otherwise disk access will slow to a crawl.

The point is that AACS is relatively complicated. There are just too many moving parts required to figure out the decryption key required for the disk, not to mention AACS uses ECDSA, which we can't guarantee is supported by all TPM chips. SGX was supposed to protect an entire section of memory and restrict the ability to use that memory. Properly deployed, it could've been reasonably secure. Alas, it had more holes than Swiss cheese. People are now potentially switching to things like full memory encryption, although even that will, in time, probably fall victim to theoretical and practical attacks.

Even if TPM 2.0 was allowed, Apple machines have it disabled, and there is no way to enable it, just like with SGX. You can't even install Windows 11 because of this.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Pioneer products are engineered in Japan, therefore they usually are offered in Japan first and then the USA a year later.

Pioneer has several new and improved internal and external BD-ROM drives for the USA market (new Nov 2022 models). Most will play native 4K Blu-ray discs for those that own a rare Intel CPU and motherboard with SGX security technology. However I noticed that Pioneer has removed the 4K Blu-ray logo from all the new BD-ROM drives. This was most likely a wise decision, since only 1% of Windows 10 and Windows 11 PC’s are capable of playing 4K Blu-ray discs (less consumer complaints for an issue that is beyond Pioneers control. 4K Blu-ray playback from a PC is an issue that the BDA association decides, since the BDA only approved Intel based SGX security technology and not TPM 2.0 security technology. Everyone is using TPM 2.0 security technology now with Intel and AMD CPU based computers. I wish the BDA would approve TPM 2.0 security in addition to SGX security).

Nice selection of internal and external BD-ROM drives from Pioneer, and most also play 4K Blu-ray discs according to the specs (just have to study the specs before buying a drive).

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...omputer+Drives

The prices are higher on these new models for two reasons. One reason is inflation, and the second reason is there is a new premium models being made for videophiles. The BDR-S13U-X internal drive costs $290 (A Pioneer entry level 4K BD-ROM drive is now $175 and $119 for non 4K BD-ROM drive).

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-S13U-X ($290 high end internal model)

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-X13U-S (high performance external model for Laptop/Notebook PC’s) $230

But when will the BDR-XS08 be coming? The BDR-XD08 is already available. The BDR-X13 is a half-height drive and thus is not portable.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Even if TPM 2.0 was allowed, Apple machines have it disabled, and there is no way to enable it, just like with SGX. You can't even install Windows 11 because of this.

You know, I almost admire how, no matter how obvious it is that I know far more about this stuff than you do, you have to akshually me whenever I post about this stuff, as if I'm the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. Apple computers don't have TPM chips. Why would they? Apple doesn't use TPM. If a good number of PCs didn't have TPM until Microsoft forced the issue, why would Apple? Even if some or all of the raw materials are present in Intel's CPUs, it doesn't matter, as the CPUs won't be supported anymore in another 2-3 years, and there was never any support for any of it, even unofficial, AFAIK.

Besides, Apple has nothing to do with any of this! Hell will freeze over before they even consider supporting any sort of official UHD support. Unless the BDA gives up and drops these ridiculous hardware requirements, macOS users will have to stick to unofficial solutions if they're determined to play back 4K discs.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by apollo828

You know, I almost admire how, no matter how obvious it is that I know far more about this stuff than you do, you have to akshually me whenever I post about this stuff, as if I'm the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. Apple computers don't have TPM chips. Why would they? Apple doesn't use TPM. If a good number of PCs didn't have TPM until Microsoft forced the issue, why would Apple? Even if some or all of the raw materials are present in Intel's CPUs, it doesn't matter, as the CPUs won't be supported anymore in another 2-3 years, and there was never any support for any of it, even unofficial, AFAIK.

Besides, Apple has nothing to do with any of this! Hell will freeze over before they even consider supporting any sort of official UHD support. Unless the BDA gives up and drops these ridiculous hardware requirements, macOS users will have to stick to unofficial solutions if they're determined to play back 4K discs.

Third party developers need to get this sorted out with the BDA and figure out how to work with the limits of the hardware. Apple itself will not think to do this due to its all-digital philosophy.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Third party developers need to get this sorted out with the BDA and figure out how to work with the limits of the hardware. Apple itself will not think to do this due to its all-digital philosophy.

Well, you keep dreaming of the day that the BDA just gives up and just lets companies like Cyberlink perform 4K playback without any hardware enclaves being used. I'll keep hoping Santa leaves a million dollars and a pony under the Christmas tree one year. We'll see which happens first. Hell, I'll settle for somebody posting about PC equipment without you chiming in with some ridiculous take that's completely detached from reality, all because you bought an Apple laptop without doing your homework first.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by apollo828

This really isn't feasible for technical reasons. (Remember, TPM 2.0 has been around for many years, and predates SGX.) Basically, a TPM is a mini-HSM (hardware security module) that resides in your PC. It has RSA functionality and that's about it for useful stuff. (TPM 2.0 does allow for more flexibility in supported curves. I believe few chips actually support anything beyond DSA and RSA.) You can feed it encrypted data, and it can spit out the decrypted data, and you can sign data (or verify it but verification is trivial and can be done anywhere). The problem is that TPM is really small. It really doesn't have anything beyond a microscopic amount of RSA functionality. The ability to expand on those capabilities is limited, along with performance being somewhat slow. In practice, the only real use case for consumers is protecting sensitive data that must sit in at-rest storage (i.e., you can't delete it).

Let's take BitLocker as an example. The disk is encrypted. Where do you store the key required to decrypt everything? On the disk! But, the data's just sitting there, right? Why not just take the key? Well, the key itself is encrypted by the TPM. Assuming everything checks out on the system, the TPM can decrypt the key upon startup, and the key will automatically encrypt and decrypt as needed. The key will not sit on the TPM. It will sit in a place where it's easily accessible, otherwise disk access will slow to a crawl.

The point is that AACS is relatively complicated. There are just too many moving parts required to figure out the decryption key required for the disk, not to mention AACS uses ECDSA, which we can't guarantee is supported by all TPM chips. SGX was supposed to protect an entire section of memory and restrict the ability to use that memory. Properly deployed, it could've been reasonably secure. Alas, it had more holes than Swiss cheese. People are now potentially switching to things like full memory encryption, although even that will, in time, probably fall victim to theoretical and practical attacks.

There are over 1.25 billion Windows PC’s with over 850 million of those PC's running the Windows 10 operating system. The BDA needs to develop some type of hardware or software based security so consumers in the world can play 4K Blu-ray discs on their PC. To bad SGX technology can not be emulated in software, but SGX requires hardware based security.

Less then 1% of the 1.25 billion Windows PC’s can play native 4K Blu-ray discs because they lack SGX security technology. However almost 100% of the Windows PC’s over the last 15 years can playback native 1080P Blu-ray discs when an internal or external BD-ROM drive is added.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Even if TPM 2.0 was allowed, Apple machines have it disabled, and there is no way to enable it, just like with SGX. You can't even install Windows 11 because of this.

There are over 100 million MAC PC’s in use, and therefore the BDA should hopefully one day approve a hardware or software based security so MAC owners can also one day play 4K Blu-ray discs along with standard 1080P Blu-ray discs.

There are also over 840 million people in the world using some type of tablet PC. Developing a 4K Blu-ray app that connects to an external 4K BD-ROM drive by USB would be ideal. Then certain studios might allow the managed copy feature to be used for certain movies, so a consumer could make a authorized encrypted copy of a 100GB 4K Blu-ray image to a under $15 128GB micro SDXC card if they did not want to carry around a portable 4K BD-ROM drive.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

But when will the BDR-XS08 be coming? The BDR-XD08 is already available. The BDR-X13 is a half-height drive and thus is not portable.

You will need to contact Pioneer and ask them that question.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

The BDA needs to develop some type of hardware or software based security so consumers in the world can play 4K Blu-ray discs on their PC.

No, the BDA doesn't need to do anything. It would be nice if they did but I'm sure they're perfectly happy to let (official) PC playback die, especially seeing as how it was buggy PC equipment that allowed 4K discs to be ripped.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by apollo828

No, the BDA doesn't need to do anything. It would be nice if they did but I'm sure they're perfectly happy to let (official) PC playback die, especially seeing as how it was buggy PC equipment that allowed 4K discs to be ripped.

It makes no sense to have all these new 2022 4K BD-ROM computer drives being released, if the BDA does not come out with some way to approve the store bought 4K Blu-ray discs to be played back on a PC. 4K Blu-ray discs are 66GB and 100GB stamped (pressed) discs with no blanks offered in the formats specs (no blank 4K Blu-ray discs in existence means no piracy on optical discs). Also, 4K Blu-ray discs have the best security, however not having any modern 2023 motherboards with SGX security so that consumers can legally playback 4K Blu-ray discs, opens the door and encourages hackers to attempt to rip 100GB discs to their internal or external 20TB hard drive. Since at a certain point consumer are going to give up on the playback of 4K Blu-ray discs on a PC, or switch to a standalone 4K Blu-ray player, or attempt to rip the 4K Blu-ray discs to a 20TB hard drive, which has legal issues since in most countries one is not allowed under the law to break the encryption even for fair use purposes. 4K Blu-ray discs also have renewable security and are much more secure than the DVD format. When piracy occurs most of the time it occurs on the less secure and cheaper 480i DVD format that launched back in the year 1997. No blank 4K Blu-ray discs means the authorized managed copy that some studios might allow in the future, would need to be copied to a hard drive or SD card.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

It makes no sense to have all these new 2022 4K BD-ROM computer drives being released,

Why? There's loads of optical content out there. Maybe Pioneer's happy to make drives that can read them, and they occasionally have to refresh their drives as the required underlying hardware is refreshed. Pioneer supports strange stuff long after the rest of the world has moved on. Remember, in Japan, they stopped servicing LaserDisc players over there on Sep. 30, 2020, almost 20 years after the final title was released.

4K Blu-ray discs are 66GB and 100GB stamped (pressed) discs with no blanks offered in the formats specs.

Are you trolling or do you really live in your own little world? There are 100GB BD-Rs out there. I've used them to back up data that's important to me. While I'm sure the drives I have will last a long time, it's good to know that Pioneer has released newer drives that, if nothing else, will probably be used by archivists in another 15-20 years to extract data from discs.

Also, 4K Blu-ray discs have the best security, however not having any modern 2023 motherboards with SGX security so that consumers can legally playback 4K Blu-ray discs, opens the door and encourages hackers to attempt to rip 100GB discs to their internal or external 20TB hard drive.

Psst. SGX did nothing to stop the discs from being ripped. Nothing.

which has legal issues since in most countries one is not allowed under the law to break the encryption even for fair use purposes.

Oh yeah, I forgot that the NSA is spying on my home server and is going to send a SWAT team to haul me off to jail for the next 20 years. Whoops! I guess I should've been a good boy and played by the rules.

4K Blu-ray discs also have renewable security and much more secure then the DVD format. When piracy occurs most of the time it occurs on the less secure and cheaper 480i DVD format that launched back in the year 1997.

I really don't know what to tell you if you honestly believe all the nonsense you just spewed over the course of your entire post. Every single title released on optical media can be ripped and has been ripped. There are a couple of very small caveats that don't apply to 99.999% of the discs out there, and even the caveats have workarounds.

[HDTV1080P]

The triple layer 100GB BDXL Blu-ray discs and quad layer 128GB BDXL Blu-ray discs are data discs, and even though you can place video and audio files on the discs, the 100GB BDXL discs and 128GB BDXL discs are not compatible with standalone 4K Blu-ray players. Those blank 100GB BDXL and 128GB BDXL discs can only be used on a computer BD-ROM drive that is BDXL compatible.

I am happy that Pioneer makes BD-ROM drives that playback 4K Blu-ray discs. I just wish the BDA would approve of a secure hardware and software playback solution so up to 100% of Windows and MAC PC’s can playback the 4K Blu-ray discs legally.

All the studios need to do is issue a new AACS BD+ security keys for the latest 4K Blu-ray releases, and then the format is secure once again (Which requires a free firmware update being installed on all the 4K Blu-ray players). The DVD format does not use renewable securely and is much more easier to copy discs.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

The triple layer 100GB BDXL Blu-ray discs and quad layer 128GB BDXL Blu-ray discs are data discs, and even though you can place video and audio files on the discs, the 100GB BDXL discs and 128GB BDXL discs are not compatible with standalone 4K Blu-ray players. Those blank 100GB BDXL and 128GB BDXL discs can only be used on a computer BD-ROM drive that is BDXL compatible.

That's funny. When I had Oppo's 203, it played whatever optical media I put in it, including BDXLs. As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.

All the studios need to do is issue a new AACS BD+ security keys for the latest 4K Blu-ray releases, and then the format is secure once again (Which requires a free firmware update being installed on all the 4K Blu-ray players). The DVD format does not use renewable securely and is much more easier to copy discs.

Okay. Since you apparently believe I'm a total moron who has no idea how this stuff really works, and you're the one with all the answers, explain to me how BD+ and AACS have been updated several dozen times each over 15+ years and defeated every time, but this time, it's totally gonna be different, and the discs will be forever protected. Don't just wave your hands. Don't just say they'll be safe just because. Break it down for me. I want all the technical details that will prove how nobody will ever be able to defeat the updates.

[HDTV1080P]

Maybe in the year 2026+ a new 8K optical disc format will launch with unbreakable AES-512 and AES-256 military encryption. The movie studios could protect their 8K movies with secure military encryption that is approved by the NSA. Then one does not need to worry about the 8K movies being copied. AES-512 military level encryption should be secure for the next 10 years minimum.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Maybe in the year 2026+ a new 8K optical disc format will launch with unbreakable AES-512 and AES-256 military encryption. The movie studios could protect their 8K movies with secure military encryption that is approved by the NSA. Then one does not need to worry about the 8K movies being copied. AES-512 military level encryption should be secure for the next 10 years minimum.

Oh, good lord. You don't have the first clue what you're talking about. Period. You're just throwing spaghetti at the wall, like a child, and praying that something sticks. You and your little buddy BijouMan can't admit that you're wrong about all of this. All of it. Any time you open your mouths about how disc encryption works, YOU ARE WRONG, AND YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN WRONG. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Instead of stopping and saying, "You're right, I'm wrong," both of you just quintuple down and reach for any random thing you think will somehow make you sound like you know how this stuff works. It's idiotic nonsense like this that drives away the insiders and techies who actually know what's going on and can provide useful info to everybody else.

"Oooh, I know, I'll mention AES! That's a magic bullet! It'll make me seem smart, and this guy will be totally stumped!"

No, stronger AES ciphers will not matter. You're confusing brute force cracking with tricks that allow you to figure out which key is required for each disc. The latter is how discs are cracked. But, I'm sure you'll have some ridiculous thing to say next to prove that all you care about is somehow believing you're right, and that I'm the clueless one.

By the way, this supposed 8K disc format - a hilarious idea seeing as how it's been five years since a new 4K player was released - is just ridiculous, not to mention yet another sign that you're clueless about all this stuff. You are the one who claimed that simply updating the keys would somehow magically protect new discs. When I asked for an explanation, you just went to some mythical 8K disc format and a larger encryption cipher. Even if the AACS spec was updated to use larger ciphers, it wouldn't matter to people ripping discs, and there's a good chance the discs would be incompatible with current players without a large firmware update. If upgrading to AES-256 was some magical silver bullet, AACS could've been updated at any point over the past 15+ years. It never happened. It's not because whoever drew up the spec is too stupid to understand that there's a stronger cipher out there.

So, what's next? What's the next goofy thing that you're going to say because you can't admit that you're wrong about all of this?

EDIT: Oh, and I can't believe I missed this little nugget.

AES-512 military level encryption should be secure for the next 10 years minimum.

AES-512 does not exist. Somebody somewhere may have thrown together some ad-hoc code that uses 512-bit keys, especially if writing a paper on their idea for what AES-512 should look like. If so, it's arbitrary, and no serious org would use it. Even if experts felt like AES-512 was necessary - and experts don't, seeing as how AES-128 is still quite strong - a high-quality NIST (or similar standards org) spec would be required, otherwise anything that's developed would just be arbitrary, black box garbage that would have to be supported by the BDA and/or the studios. That would cost money. They're not going to spend money on arbitrary code when they can just use libraries like OpenSSL for free. So, no, once again, it looks like you spent 30 seconds searching the Internet for random stuff you thought would make you sound smart.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

There are over 100 million MAC PC’s in use, and therefore the BDA should hopefully one day approve a hardware or software based security so MAC owners can also one day play 4K Blu-ray discs along with standard 1080P Blu-ray discs.

There are also over 840 million people in the world using some type of tablet PC. Developing a 4K Blu-ray app that connects to an external 4K BD-ROM drive by USB would be ideal. Then certain studios might allow the managed copy feature to be used for certain movies, so a consumer could make a authorized encrypted copy of a 100GB 4K Blu-ray image to a under $15 128GB micro SDXC card if they did not want to carry around a portable 4K BD-ROM drive.

Managed Copy would not be practical for studios or disc manufacturers. The way it was presented, discs would have to be “serialized” meaning the manufacturer would have to use a different master for every single disc, and they would not be able to mass-press them inexpensively. There could also have been a limit as to how many times it could be used, meaning if the copy wears out, you would be screwed. Recordable media of any type does not have the same level of stability as the original pressed media, so I see no reason to make backups of it.

Here is what those plans were.

[Mezzanine]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Pioneer products are engineered in Japan, therefore they usually are offered in Japan first and then the USA a year later.

The prices are higher on these new models for two reasons. One reason is inflation, and the second reason is there is a new premium models being made for videophiles. The BDR-S13U-X internal drive costs $290.

Is BDR-S13U-X a new model, or renamed for the US market?
I have a BDR-S13J-X since November 2021. Bought it from a reseller in Japan.