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#1 | |
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It is highly recommended that you also read the following threads:
A GUIDE TO BASS MANAGEMENT (PART I) Prepared by Big Daddy Why Do I need A Subwoofer? Building full-range speakers is expensive and difficult. Re-creating low frequencies cleanly and effectively requires large drivers, large enclosures, and a great deal of power. That is the reason why low frequency duties are directed to a subwoofer. This enables manufacturers to build speakers more easily and economically. What is LFE (Low Frequency Effects)? The LFE (.1) provides a dedicated channel for the low bass that is used in theaters to add impact to the movies. The LFE signal is band-limited to frequencies below 120 Hz. The goal of the LFE channel is to store very loud low frequency effects, which would not fit inside the dynamic range of the other speakers. That is why LFE is recorded -10dB lower in the relations to the other 5 or 7 channels to leave enough headroom to help follow the equal loudness contours. This means that it takes more energy in the low bass to sound equally as loud as the midrange. LFE is boosted by +10dB in playback to compensate for this. When the player is connected to the receiver/processors digitally through the HDMI, Optical, or Digital Coaxial cables, the +10dB is added automatically. When the connection is through analog cables, we may have to add this +10dB boost manually. The LFE channel is an independent channel and has no effect on the other speakers. The information that is in the LFE channel extends up to 120Hz regardless of whether you have bookshelf speakers or full-range super tower speakers. It is important to distinguish between the LFE channel and what goes to a subwoofer. The LFE is a production channel, whereas the subwoofer is a playback channel. The sound engineers determine what goes to the LFE channel, and the users of the home-theater systems determine what ends up coming out of the subwoofer. What Are Low Pass and High Pass Filters? Low-Pass Filter: A low-pass filter blocks (attenuates) high frequency signals above the cutoff frequency and passes low-frequency signals. It is sometimes called a high-cut filter, or treble cut filter. Low-pass filters are generally used on subwoofers to block high frequency signals that they cannot reproduce. The low pass filters in most high quality receivers have a 24 dB / octave slope. High-Pass Filter: A high-pass filter blocks (attenuates) the low frequency signals below the cutoff frequency, but passes high frequency signals. It is sometimes called a low-cut filter. The high pass filter in most modern receivers have a 12 dB / octave slope. Small and Large Speakers In the bass management setup menu, setting speakers to "Small" and "Large" does not refer to the physical size of your speakers. It refers to the low frequency extension of your speakers or whether your speakers are capable of reproducing powerful deep bass below 80 Hz. You should consult the manual of your speakers or the Website of the manufacturer to get information about the frequency response of your speakers. The following table is an approximation guideline as suggested by OutLaw Audio. ![]() What is Bass Management? Bass management takes the low frequency signals from the satellites, bookshelf speakers, or bass-limited directional speakers, and combines them with the LFE signal to be played through the subwoofer. There are several types of Bass Management systems within the AV receivers or processors: Fixed: These systems merely ask you whether your speakers are Large or Small and do not offer the option to change the crossover frequency. Generally, the crossover frequency on most of these systems is set somewhere between 80Hz-120Hz and cannot be changed. Variable Crossover: These systems allow you to set your speakers to Large or Small, but also allow you to change one crossover frequency that applies to all speakers and the subwoofer(s). Setting the crossover frequency between 80Hz-100Hz can work for most people. Variable Crossovers for all Speakers: The most modern AVR's and processors allow you to set different crossover frequencies for the front, center, side surround, and rear surround speakers. In addition, they allow you to set a low pass filter (LPF) for the LFE (.1) channel. Although these systems are more flexible and complex, they are not necessarily better and need some degree of expertise to be set properly. Normally you set the LPF of LFE to 120Hz to make sure you receive all the information that the audio engineers put in the LFE channel. At the same time, you want to make sure that frequencies above 120Hz will not go to your subwoofer as it is possible that some discs, particularly older DVDs, may have a full-range LFE channel due to poor and careless engineering. As far as the LFE boost is concerned, bass management complicates matters slightly. The player still sends the LFE signal with a -10dB reduction. The receiver/processors reduces the LFE signal another -5dB. It also reduces the redirected bass from the other speakers -15dB, mixes the two signals together, and then adds another +15dB boost to the signal before sending it to the subwoofer. With analog connection, we may have to do this +15dB boost manually. More information on analog LFE boost can be found HERE. Double Bass or LFE+Main: Manufacturers have different names for this option. Double Bass On (Onkyo) = LFE + Main (Denon) = Both (Yamaha) When you use these options, Bass management becomes enabled for Large (Full Band) speakers. The frequency below which the signals from the main speakers are sent to the subwoofer is set automatically in the Onkyo or can be changed to any number you like in Denon's implementation. Onkyo and Denon use Audyssey and this information is verified by Audyssey. Double Bass or LFE+Main is an option that was created by AVR makers as a compromise to customers who were personally “offended” when their speakers were designated Small in the AVR's menu. In such modes, the mains run full-range AND the subwoofer is lowpassed at a specified frequency. So both the main speakers and the subwoofer are receiving bass signals. The problem is that in the overlap frequency region between the sub and the front speakers, the bass frequencies are doubled and tend to become bloated and boomy. One of the most important factors in receiving good bass sound in a small HT room is placement of the low frequency sources. Although the subwoofer can be moved around the room in order to find the optimum position, the front speakers cannot be moved to other spots in the room. In addition, when the bass frequencies are directed to both the front speakers and the subwoofer, there may be some phase cancellation problem for some of these frequencies. Using a separate subwoofer and sending all bass frequencies to it is beneficial. The proper way of distributing the bass sound across the room correctly is with more than one subwoofer. An even number of subwoofers, 2 or 4, is preferred. Bass Management in Multi-Channel Systems In a modern 5.1 system, the signals from the five speakers are sent through a high pass filter so that only frequencies above the cutoff frequency are sent to the corresponding speakers. At the same time, a lowpass filter redirects frequencies below the cutoff frequency from each channel to the subwoofer. Meanwhile, the LFE passes through its own built-in lowpass filter (this frequency does not depend on the low pass frequency between the main loudspeakers and the subwoofer) and are passed to the subwoofer. The low frequencies of all other channels are summed together with the LFE channel and sent to the subwoofer. Different receivers perform bass management differently. The following diagrams demonstrate different options for Bass Management when speakers are set to "Large" or "Small". Although many new AVR's follow the bass management depicted in the first diagram, it is important to be aware of the other alternatives. ![]() Diagram Created by Big Daddy ![]() Diagram Created by Big Daddy ![]() Diagram Created by Big Daddy ![]() Diagram Created by Big Daddy ![]() Diagram Created by Big Daddy Should I Set My Speakers to Large or Small? People always ask this question. The answer is very simple. If you own a subwoofer that outputs good bass sound, you should set all your speakers to SMALL. In general, if you own a subwoofer, it may be wise to set all your speakers to small for several reasons:
It is helpful to redefine the words SMALL and LARGE to: LARGE = The speakers are not Bass Managed. SMALL = The speakers are Bass Managed. Read these blogs from Audyssey: Small vs Large and Subwoofer Setup & MultEq. SPEAKER AND SUBWOOFER SETUP Subwoofer Setup and Crossover Settings:
After calibration, the actual dB settings are totally meaningless. Each room is different. The same speakers may sound completely different in another room and may require different dB settings. For example, you may have two identical front speakers and set their levels equally. However, it is possible for one of the speakers to sound louder. This is because the location of each speaker with respect to the boundaries is not the same and they interact with boundaries differently. The most important thing about calibration is that you want the level of all speakers to be the same at your primary listening position. The actual positive or negative dB levels are not that important. Subwoofers are the problem children. The low bass frequencies have very long wavelengths that are sometimes several times the dimensions of the room. These frequencies interact with the boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor) and create standing waves. Because of this, you need to move your subwoofer around to get better performance for your primary listening position. Each time you move your subwoofer, you need to re-calibrate the speakers again. Don't be surprised if your dB levels, particularly for the subwoofer, change drastically. After calibration, if the level of the subwoofer is set to +12dB, it usually means that your subwoofer is not in a good location or the level on the back of the sub is set too low. Move the sub around and experiment. If the subwoofer's port is in the back, make sure it has enough breathing room and keep it away from the walls. If you decide to increase the gain on the back of the sub, do not go beyond 75%. Standard Low Pass Cutoff Frequency An extensive survey conducted in Europe showed that 80Hz is the best choice for receivers with fixed-frequency filters. The mean frequency that the vast majority of humans began to distinguish subwoofer directionality was 185 Hz, and 80 Hz was the minimum frequency below which no one heard directionality. There really isn't a standard low pass cutoff frequency that applies to all situations. The THX suggestion to use 80Hz applies only to THX Certified Speakers. These speakers are required to have low frequency extension down to 80Hz. It is not a blind recommendation that applies to all speakers. It doesn't make much sense to set the HPF to 80Hz, for example, if the other speakers are small satellites and their frequency response do not go below 100Hz. Even though bass frequencies above 100Hz may become directional, a higher high pass filter such as 120Hz may be required. Avoid an Audio Hole A low-pass crossover frequency will block high frequency sound above the cutoff level. A high-pass crossover frequency will block frequencies below the cutoff level. Typically, on many new recievers, the LPF ONLY affects the LFE channel (the ".1" channel), not the bass redirected from the other 5 or 7 channels. That is why you normally set it to 120Hz to make sure you receive all the information that the producers intended to put in the LFE channel. However, if the implemented LPF in the receiver affects the redirected bass from the other SMALL speakers, do not adjust the low-pass frequency too far below the high-pass frequency. You could end up with an audio hole in between the low-pass and high-pass frequencies. It is important to remember that crossover networks cut frequencies progressively. As a result, if, for example, the high-pass frequency for the small speakers is set at 100Hz, and you set the low pass frequency around 80Hz or 90Hz, you will most likely be ok. If, however, you set the low-pass frequency around 60Hz to 70Hz, then you would most likely end up with an audio hole. Can you really hear the difference? I will leave the decision up to you. Subwoofer Placement Subwoofer placement in the room is by far the most important factor in the performance of the sub. Wear a tight belt, buy a long sub cable, and experiment to get the best location for your subwoofer. Most people start with the corner of their room. Subwoofers tend to use the corner walls and increase their output in the room. If you are going to put it in a corner, move a foot or so away from the walls so that the subwoofer does not become too boomy. The other option is to use the Subwoofer Crawl technique. Move the subwoofer to the position you normally sit. Play test tones or music with heavy bass. Walk (crawl) around the room slowly, preferably with an SPL meter, and listen or measure the bass sound. The location with the best bass performance is the perfect location for your sub. Mark it and move your sub there. Generally you hear louder bass sound closer to the walls. The worst place is in the middle of the room. The following video by Axiom Audio demonstrates the subwoofer crawl technique. USING MULTIPLE SUBWOOFERS The low frequency sound waves interact with the room boundaries (walls, celing, and floor) and create standing waves and room modes. The effect of these standing waves is that the bass sound in the room will be very uneven and depending on the sub's position and your listening position, you will get very hot and cold spots. An easy solution to this problem is to use multiple subwoofers. Extensive research has been performed on subwoofers at the National Research Council of Canada and at Harman International. These are some of the conclusions:
Connecting and Setting Up Two Subwoofers:
Placement of two Subwoofers: You need to place the two subs properly for the best bass performance. You can try three options:
Adjustment of Two Subwoofers
FOOTNOTE Quote:
There are two formulas used to find the db ratio between sound levels. The first is used ONLY FOR POWER (watts): 10 . log (P2/P1). This formula is used when comparing Sound Intensity, measured in watts. The second is used ONLY FOR VOLTAGES (and SPL levels): 20 . log (V2/V1). This formula is for voltage relationships and Sound Pressure Levels. Using a Y adapter will add two correlated signals. When you sum two equal correlated audio signals (i.e., mono sources from sub output on the receiver/preamp), you will get twice the signal level (A1 + A2 = 2A1, since A1=A2). Therefore , since V2 = 2 V1 and the log (2) = 0.30103, it follows 20 . log (2V1/V1) = 20 . log (2) = 6dB gain in voltage. For power, it will be 10. log (2P1/P1) = 10 . log (2) = 3dB increase in power. These are a few advantages (some real and some claimed) to using a Y adapter:
ADDITONAL INFORMATION AND REFERENCES Check post #2 of this thread. Last edited by Big Daddy; 09-18-2012 at 06:34 AM. |
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#2 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() CABLE REQUIREMENTS FOR DIFFERENT CODECS The HDMI classifications refer to the transmitter and receiver chips in the players and receivers/processors. They do not refer to HDMI cables. As far as cables are concerned, they are tested as Standard (Category 1) or High Speed (Category 2). Just because a cable is not tested, it does not mean that it cannot perform as a high speed cable. You do not need to spend a lot of money to get good HDMI cables. There are plenty of inexpensive HDMI cables that can perform perfectly. All HDMI cables from Monoprice are high speed (Category 2) cables. This information is from HDMI.org: Quote:
Dolby Digital, DTS Digital, and All Variants HDMI, Toslink (Optical), Coaxial S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interconnect Format), and Multi-Channel Analog Cables. Dolby Digital Plus (+), DTS HD HR, LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, And DTS HD MA HDMI and Multi-Channel Analog Cables. If the player decodes the signal to PCM, any version of HDMI (transmitter and receiver) can work. If the player transmits the signal in bitstream, HDMI 1.3 connection at both ends (player and receiver/processor) will be needed. Optical and coaxial cables can transmit two-channel stereo LPCM signal. DVD-A HDMI (version 1.1 or above), Multi-Channel Analog Cables, I-Link (IEEE 1394, Firewire), and proprietory connections such as Denon Link. SACD HDMI (version 1.2 or above), Multi-Channel Analog Cables, I-Link (IEEE 1394, Firewire), and proprietory connections such as Denon Link. Bass Management When Analog Cables Are Used When a disc player is connected to a receiver with multi-channel analog cables, the player must perform digital to analog decoding and send the analog signals to the receiver. In this case, calibration and bass management adjustments such as speaker sizes and channel levels should be done in the player's setup menus or the receiver must have bass management for the 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 ANALOG inputs. If the player lacks calibration adjustments or the receiver cannot perform adjustments for analog inputs, bass management cannot be performed. CONNECTING TWO SUBWOOFERS TO A RECEIVER/PROCESSOR Using a Y adapter and connecting two subwoofers to a single subwoofer (LFE) output on the back of a receiver/processor may be preferred to daisy chaining the two subwoofers. These are my reasons:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/home-theat...gnal-loss.html CABLES NEEDED TO CONNECT ONE OR TWO SUBWOOFERS TO A RECEIVER Subwoofer Cables The placement of a subwoofer in the room is perhaps the most important factor in determining the quality and level of bass in a home theater room. Because you need to experiment with the position of the subwoofer in the room, you should buy a relatively long calble (12 ft or higher). ![]() http://www.monoprice.com/products/su...02&cp_id=10236 http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/subwoofer/index.htm http://store.audioholics.com/section...bwoofer-cables http://www.amazon.com/s?url=search-a...ubwoofer+cable Y Adapters You can buy the solid type Y adapter or the cable Y adapter. Y Adapter (2 male, 1 female): This Y adapter is used to connect the sub cable from the back of the receiver to both the Right and Left inputs on the back of the subwoofer. On many subs, this will give a few additional dB's of sound output. ![]() ![]() http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 http://www.cablesimple.com/index.php...oducts_id=4529 Higher quality Y adapter (2 Male, 1 Female) from Monoprice: $2.90 + Shipping: ![]() http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 Higher Quality Y Adapter (2 Male, 1 Female) from Radio Shack, $3.59 + Free Shipping: ![]() http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3232744 Higher Quality Y Adapters (2 Male, 1 Female) from Pro Satellite Supply, $3.99 + Shipping: ![]() Mediabridge Y Adapter from Amazon (2 Male, 1 Female), $5.99 from Amazon, Qualifies for free shipping for orders over $25: http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-Ul...851189&sr=1-41 Higher quality Y adapter (2 Male, 1 Female): ![]() http://store.audioholics.com/product...dapter-y-cable, $6.03 + Free Shipping http://www.cablesimple.com/index.php...oducts_id=5001, $4.48 + Shipping http://store.cablesplususa.com/2214-29122-001.html, $4.71 + Shipping (maybe lower shipping cost) High-End Y Adapter (2 Male, 1 Female) from Radio Shack, $11.29 + Free Shipping: ![]() http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2102978 High-End (Silver-plated twisted-pair copper conductors with 2 layers of copper shielding and 1 layer of foil shielding): ![]() http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=184-226, $12.32 + Shipping http://store.audioholics.com/product...a-male-y-cable, $16.99 + Free Shipping: Y Adapter (1 male, 2 female): This Y adapter is used for connecting two subwoofers to the receiver. You insert the male side to the LFE out (sub out or sub pre-out) on the back of the receiver and connect two sub cables to the female sides (one for each sub). ![]() ![]() http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 Higher Quality Y Adapter (1 Male, 2 Female) from Radio Shack, $3.59 + Free Shipping: ![]() http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3909665 http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2102977 http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103638 http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2104065 http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103709 Higher Quality Y Adapters (1 Male, 2 Female) from Pro Satellite Supply, $3.99 + Shipping: ![]() Higher Quality Y adapter (1 Male, 2 Female): ![]() http://store.audioholics.com/product...dapter-y-cable, $6.03 + Free Shipping http://store.cablesplususa.com/2214-29121-001.html, $4.71 + Shipping http://www.cablesimple.com/index.php...oducts_id=5000, $4.48 + Shipping High-End Y Adapter (1 Male, 2 Female) from Radio Shack, $11.29 + Free Shipping: ![]() http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3237128 High-End (Silver-plated twisted-pair copper conductors with 2 layers of copper shielding and 1 layer of foil shielding): ![]() http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=184-224, $12.32 + Shipping http://store.audioholics.com/product...female-y-cable, $16.99 + Free Shipping ADDITONAL INFORMATION AND REFERENCES http://www.aes.org/technical/documents/AESTD1001.pdf http://www.aes.org/technical/documen....cfm?docID=248 http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content...nd-lfe-channel Band-pass filters : FILTERS http://www.digido.com/subwoofers.html Low-pass filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia High-pass filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://www.audioinfo4u.com/Crossover_Network_Basics.htm Bass Management Basics – Settings Made Simple — Reviews and News from Audioholics Bass Management: The Right Stuff — Reviews and News from Audioholics Basics of Bass Management - Axiom Audio Bass management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://www.tmhlabs.com/products/bassmanager.pdf Low-frequency effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia UltimateAVmag.com: Bass Management and the LFE Channel Feature Article Product Review - Anthem Statement D1 http://www.cerwin-vega.com/themes/th...nding_Bass.pdf The Misunderstood 0.1 LFE Channel in 5.1 Digital Surround Sound Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity How To Set Up a Subwoofer (or Subwoofers) for Home Theater: BigPictureBigSound My Apologies to ComfyCurt and Others Who Helped in the Past: "R" Series Crossovers? - Page 2 - Club Polk http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downlo...rs/m2tb_en.pdf Kelly Industries - Bass Manager VST Plug-in Last edited by Big Daddy; 12-08-2011 at 03:52 AM. |
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Thanks given by: | SuperFist (09-21-2017) |
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#4 |
Senior Member
Jan 2009
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Another great post Big Daddy... hate to sound like a broken record, but you have taught me a tremendous amount of knowledge about the basics of how things interelate.
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#7 |
Blu-ray Champion
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Depending on the low frequency extension of your front speakers, set their high pass frequency to 60Hz or 80Hz. Also make sure the crossover on the back of your subwoofer is turned all the way up to its maximum point.
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#11 |
Mad Scientist
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hooray!...another thread from BD to play around in! Really though, excellent guide. When first setting up my newest receiver several months back, this was a hard thing for me to wrap my head around at first, especially the seperate x-over setting for the LFE channel. Actually, I wonder why they even have an option to mess with the x-over of the .1 setting? With all this being said, I feel I should once again go through my settings to see whats-what.
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#12 |
Special Member
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I didn't really understand alot of it, BUT I have learned what the LFE stands for. My God I swear everytime you put up a new learning tool. I feel dumber and dumber eveytime. But I Do learn stuff even though most of it comes in greek to me.
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#16 |
Special Member
Sep 2007
verge of breakdown
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Great thread! Thanks for the info.
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#17 |
Blu-ray Champion
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Thank you Liquidice, Blu Titan, Neos Peace, Forsberg, and Balumann for all your compliments. I hope you find the thread useful.
As for you John, the turntable nut, I will stick a Grado cartridge and a stylus in your head. You have a limited time to buy a subwoofer. I am waiting. ![]() A man without a subwoofer is a man without love. ![]() ![]() |
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#18 | |
Moderator
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All kidding aside, I have had a few problems with my turntable and at the moment am without one. With music being the priority over movies, I need to resolve this first before I can even consider a sub. With a little luck I might be searching out that advice by year's end. John |
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