10$ billion loss for real?

[Mrbrownst0ne]

panasonic seem to be doing so good with the tv's atleast. Read this sad topic though. http://sync.sympatico.ca/news/conten...e&pagenumber=2

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Mrbrownst0ne

panasonic seem to be doing so good with the tv's atleast. Read this sad topic though. http://sync.sympatico.ca/news/conten...e&pagenumber=2

In the rush to market share, all of these companies have decreased their own margins as well as the margins of retailers to the point where almost no one is making money anymore, leaving the markets to cheap Chinese manufacturers and e-commerce vendors, who can work on tiny margins.

In addition, the Japanese manufacturers have gotten killed because the U.S. is still one of their largest markets, but we've (obviously) been going through this bad economy. You see big numbers of units getting moved on days like Black Friday, but most of those are inexplicably below cost (although that hurts the retailers, not the manufacturers). But the other factor is that the U.S. dollar is still very weak against the Yen, even as it's gained strength against the UK Pound and the Euro. In 2007, a US dollar bought 120 Yen. Today it buys only 77 Yen, a 36% decrease. The Japanese have eaten most of that for consumer products because the weak economy couldn't stand a 36% price increase.

Also, the Japanese conglomerates have become notoriously inefficient. They've lost focused and they're stuck with tens of thousand of employees even though so much manufacturing is now done in China, India, Singapore and Thailand. Compare them to an Apple, which has margins that these Japanese companies can only fantasize.

The other factor is that the HDTV business has matured. Most people who are going to make the conversion from analog tube TVs have made it. 3D was all about trying to get people to replace their HDTV. That didn't work so well, so connected TVs are the big push. That will be followed by glasses-free 3D and eventually by 4K. The manufacturers are looking for anything that will get people to start replacing their TVs.

The problem for the Japanese is that the Koreans are eating their lunch. Samsung and LG take a combined 33% share of the market.

And although I personally think Apple is making a mistake by their (rumored) entry into this market, their success rate is so high, even if they take only 10% of the market after three years, it's going to be high margin and it's going to hurt the other manufacturers.

I have a feeling that some of the Japanese companies will effectively leave the TV business. They'll still have products with their names on them, but they'll be OEM'd or licensed. Or we'll see major consolidation. This is what has happened in the major appliance industry: most major appliances in the U.S. are actually made by Whirlpool, which now owns Kitchen Aid, Admiral, Amana, Jenn-Air, Magic Chef and Maytag. They also make the products sold at Ikea, much of Kenmore and a few models for Themador. The competition is Frigidaire, which also makes Electrolux for the U.S. market (and some Kenmore). Besides them, there's LG and Viking/Subzero, but the latter only makes the super high-end (the refrigerator is $8K).

[Wingman1977]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

In the rush to market share, all of these companies have decreased their own margins as well as the margins of retailers to the point where almost no one is making money anymore, leaving the markets to cheap Chinese manufacturers and e-commerce vendors, who can work on tiny margins.

In addition, the Japanese manufacturers have gotten killed because the U.S. is still one of their largest markets, but we've (obviously) been going through this bad economy. You see big numbers of units getting moved on days like Black Friday, but most of those are inexplicably below cost (although that hurts the retailers, not the manufacturers). But the other factor is that the U.S. dollar is still very weak against the Yen, even as it's gained strength against the UK Pound and the Euro. In 2007, a US dollar bought 120 Yen. Today it buys only 77 Yen, a 36% decrease. The Japanese have eaten most of that for consumer products because the weak economy couldn't stand a 36% price increase.

Also, the Japanese conglomerates have become notoriously inefficient. They've lost focused and they're stuck with tens of thousand of employees even though so much manufacturing is now done in China, India, Singapore and Thailand. Compare them to an Apple, which has margins that these Japanese companies can only fantasize.

The other factor is that the HDTV business has matured. Most people who are going to make the conversion from analog tube TVs have made it. 3D was all about trying to get people to replace their HDTV. That didn't work so well, so connected TVs are the big push. That will be followed by glasses-free 3D and eventually by 4K. The manufacturers are looking for anything that will get people to start replacing their TVs.

The problem for the Japanese is that the Koreans are eating their lunch. Samsung and LG take a combined 33% share of the market.

And although I personally think Apple is making a mistake by their (rumored) entry into this market, their success rate is so high, even if they take only 10% of the market after three years, it's going to be high margin and it's going to hurt the other manufacturers.

I have a feeling that some of the Japanese companies will effectively leave the TV business. They'll still have products with their names on them, but they'll be OEM'd or licensed. Or we'll see major consolidation. This is what has happened in the major appliance industry: most major appliances in the U.S. are actually made by Whirlpool, which now owns Kitchen Aid, Admiral, Amana, Jenn-Air, Magic Chef and Maytag. They also make the products sold at Ikea, much of Kenmore and a few models for Themador. The competition is Frigidaire, which also makes Electrolux for the U.S. market (and some Kenmore). Besides them, there's LG and Viking/Subzero, but the latter only makes the super high-end (the refrigerator is $8K).

Funny you mentioned that with Sony's tv division getting murdered.

[bobby25]

NO to overpriced Jap products..

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by bobby25

NO to overpriced Jap products..

I would contend that they're not overpriced at all. It's just that with practically slave labor in China (factory workers make about $130 a month and many have to put in 60 hours a week), the Chinese can do it cheaper.

TVs are less expensive than they've ever been except perhaps at the very end of the CRT era.

I paid around $700 for a high-end Sony 19" TV around 1985. That's $1500 in 2011 dollars, which today gets you at least an HDTV 46" set filled with features.

We've been long spoiled by cheap Chinese manufacturing. The fact that you can buy a DVD-R drive for around the price of a high-quality pizza is simply incredulous. I've seen sales for Sandisk 8GB Flash drives for $10. In December of 1981, Creative Computing magazine predicted that the "price of 128 Kilobytes of memory would fall below $100 in the near future". At that rate, 8GB would cost $6.25 million. And now it costs just $10. And the manufacturer, distributor and retailer all make some profit. That is amazing.

Furthermore, as I've noted above, the U.S. Dollar has decreased in value against the Yen by 36% since 2007. So anything that has the same price today as it did five years ago from a Japanese manufacturer is essentially 36% cheaper. Don't blame Japan for that - blame U.S. monetary policy under both Democrats and Republicans who have weakened the dollar in part to encourage exports.

[Sonny]

I just hope panny is not doing the O'l pioneer move... Having number one gone is bad already, but if panny goes (not saying they will) it would really put a knife in the heart of PQ lovers everywhere...

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I would contend that they're not overpriced at all.

I agree 100%. The price of TV's continues to drop precipitously while the technology, quality, and features increase. One of my "rich aunts" bought the first 19" color TV I ever saw in 1960 for $800 (who knows what that translates into today after inflation). My first color TV was a 19" RCA colortrak that I bought in 1980 for $450, my first "big screen" TV was a 40" Mitsubishi that I bought in 1985 for about $3000, my first hi-definition TV was a 65" rear-projection Mitsubishi in 2001 for $5500, and I recently bought a 70" Sharp LED backlit panel for $2400. The trend is obvious. Right now you can get the 80" Sharp panel for $3900, which adjusted for inflation is probably less than my aunt's 19", and yes, Sharp is also losing big bucks. Eight years ago one of the largest flat screens such as a 45" Sharp would have put you back about 7 grand, and only a year ago, the only choice in 70" flat panel TV's was the Sony XBR7 for around $22,000. TV has to be one of the best bargains available to the general public today.

[lghaze42]

It did'nt help that they bought Sanyo last year.I hate to see them losing that much money, but they are still the largest electronics corp in the world.

[Mrbrownst0ne]

Originally Posted by lghaze42

It did'nt help that they bought Sanyo last year.I hate to see them losing that much money, but they are still the largest electronics corp in the world.

ohhhh so now they own sanyo and pioneer?

[scweb13]

Originally Posted by Mrbrownst0ne

ohhhh so now they own sanyo and pioneer?

They don't own Pioneer. They only bought the patents relating to plasma from Pioneer.

[Mrbrownst0ne]

Originally Posted by scweb13

They don't own Pioneer. They only bought the patents relating to plasma from Pioneer.

ohhhhhh ok gocha!... so is it safe to say the only reason why panasonic plasma kick ass is because of pioneer plasma? technology

[lghaze42]

Originally Posted by Mrbrownst0ne

ohhhhhh ok gocha!... so is it safe to say the only reason why panasonic plasma kick ass is because of pioneer plasma? technology

That may be some what true but the new VT50 is an all new panel from the ground up.There are many things we have that Panasonic does'nt get credit for.DVD is credited to Sony and Philips but Panasonic invented the red laser and the dual layer technology that made it possible.I don't think the Koreans have made a single thing that is all original.I do miss the days when if you saw made it Japan on a tv or dvd player you knew it was made by someone who took pride in their work.

[scweb13]

Originally Posted by Mrbrownst0ne

ohhhhhh ok gocha!... so is it safe to say the only reason why panasonic plasma kick ass is because of pioneer plasma? technology

No. A well known calibrator has said on another board that Panasonic is too proud to use Pioneer's tech. Apparently, they bought the patents to keep them out of the hands of the competition.