All Amplifiers Sound the Same? - Blu-ray Forum

Intamin · 02-10-2009, 04:50 PM

I came across this the other day, http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm and wanted to see what everyone here thought about the argument that all amps sound the same. I can't say I've done any scientific testing to agree or disagree, but I did find the results of the listening test interesting. Thoughts?

Gremal · 02-10-2009, 05:00 PM

Anyone with a pair of ears and a halfway decent rig can clearly hear that swapping out one amp for another can have a profound effect on the sound of your system...and I don't mean just tonally or in terms of soundstage, but even things as basic as level.

There is a whole propeller cap crew that thinks they have "proven" that audio components don't matter by comparing spec's, "double-blind testing" (these are guys who have never set up a clinical trial in their lives and wouldn't know where to start). They are fond of measurements and trusting instruments over their ears.

In the words of Daniel Von Recklinghausen, former engineer at H.H. Scott and editor of JAES, "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."

Intamin · 02-10-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gremal

Anyone with a pair of ears and a halfway decent rig can clearly hear that swapping out one amp for another can have a profound effect on the sound of your system...and I don't mean just tonally or in terms of soundstage, but even things as basic as level.

To play devils advocate, the argument is that if everything is properly level matched, the amplifiers should sound the same. Obviously if you swap out one amp for another, and just go you'll hear differences. The link I provided is to an experiment that has been going on for over 15 years where two different amps are level matched in a blind test and over the 15 years no one has been able pass, where passing is being able to identify which amp is which.

Gremal · 02-10-2009, 05:12 PM

There are so many variables that come into play--I'm talking audibly--that it's not even up for debate. It's not just capacitors and resistors or even the chassis or the type of feet used, all of which have infinite variations. It's whether the amp designer paid attention to the way the circuits were grounded. For example, in my previous amp, 24 ground wires converged on a single binding post in the rear of the unit. Why? Because the designer found that you lose musical information if you don't carry each wire back from the circuit board individually. When manufacturers try to cut corners, you end up with gear that doesn't sound as open, detailed, natural and linear.

Blind tests for this kind of thing are pointless. Where is the control for this blind test? Is there a strong experimenter expectancy effect? Is it double-blinded? These questions are rhetorical because the fact is that no definitive, scientific test can be set up to objectively study the issue.

naturephoto1 · 02-10-2009, 05:33 PM

I glanced at the link. Regardless of the results and the fact that no one has passed does not mean that all amps sound the same. They do not.

Rich

Intamin · 02-10-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

I glanced at the link. Regardless of the results and the fact that no one has passed does not mean that all amps sound the same. They do not.

Rich

If they didn't sound the same, then the data should support the idea that two amps sound differently, and therefore people would be able to pick out the amps. My only question is that you can argue that amps should sound different based on components/design/philosphy, but the data in blind tests is saying that they don't sound differently when properly matched. I agree with you both that in real world listening, amps sound different. I think if you were to take the time to properly match the amps with the gear when swapping out an amp, then you'd get the same results as the test linked.

naturephoto1 · 02-10-2009, 06:22 PM

As Greg (Gremal) has pointed out there are a tremendous number of variables to be considered that can make comparisons and recognizing differences with consistency exceedingly difficult. The ear has to be well trained and to listen for certain cues. The ear (if you are trained to listen carefully and have the aptitude) can note minor changes in sound reproduction. Unfortunately what is and can be heard may be difficult to measure because we may not know what we should be measuring and thus the instrumentation is not set to note the differences.

One big area to consider for differences in the sound of amps will be in the comparing of tube versus solid state. In addition, the design and topology, choice of components, wiring, and circuitry can contribute ultimately to sound reproduction. Not only will there be differences in the highs, mids, and lows that can be heard with different equipment, but you will also notice differences in the amount of air produced by a given amp, the imaging capabilities, the soundstage, depth and general dimensions of the entire rendering of the sound, attack, decay, dynamics, overtones, "how real they sound", etc.

Rich

Opips2 · 02-10-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gremal

In the words of Daniel Von Recklinghausen, former engineer at H.H. Scott and editor of JAES, "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."

WHAT?!?

you talk about engineer H.H. Scott is bad measures and sounds good??

Gremal · 02-10-2009, 07:36 PM

Yes, believe it or not, crap can measure very well and very good amps (including mine) can show poor bench performance. The question is what do you want to feed your ears every day--crap that can pass a bunch of measurement tests at Sound and Vision or Stereophile, or incredible, open detailed sound that does not measure well. Ultimately, the human ear has been designed by two billion years of evolution and it's the only tool I care about for measuring audio performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intamin

If they didn't sound the same, then the data should support the idea that two amps sound differently, and therefore people would be able to pick out the amps.

No, the data just show what the experiment designers are testing for. If their conclusion is that all amps are the same and we know that no two amps are the same, obviously their experiment is set up wrong. Blind tests are not sufficient for clinical data submitted to the FDA, for example. The tests must also be double-blind and placebo-controlled, so the clinical investigator doesn't know whether s/he's testing the real drug or a placebo. Also, tests are set up so that any data generated can stand up to statistical scientific analysis and proof.

It is not possible to superimpose these parameters on a blind test of amplifiers and come up with meaningful results. All the testers have proven is that they have set up an experiment and a system where people are not able to hear the difference between different gear. Sure--anyone can do that, but why would you want to?

Gremal · 02-10-2009, 07:41 PM

To further explain what I mean by the experiment "control", the testers have not proven that ANY gear can test "different" in their study. In any scientific study, there are ways to determine false results. In this study there is no control.

crazyBLUE · 02-10-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gremal

Yes, believe it or not, crap can measure very well and very good amps (including mine) can show poor bench performance. The question is what do you want to feed your ears every day--crap that can pass a bunch of measurement tests at Sound and Vision or Stereophile, or incredible, open detailed sound that does not measure well. Ultimately, the human ear has been designed by two billion years of evolution and it's the only tool I care about for measuring audio performance.

WELL PUT !!

Big Daddy · 02-10-2009, 08:32 PM

Apparently this $350,000 WaVac amplifier sounds the same as the 5 watt amplifiers in boom boxes. Maybe I should head to Wal_mart and trade my A/V equipment for a $50 boom box.

EQUALS

gearyt · 02-10-2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gremal

.There is a whole propeller cap crew that thinks they have "proven" that audio components don't matter

.

mdabb · 02-10-2009, 08:36 PM

I can remember before I had my two channel preamp and I had my Pass Labs amp and my receiver. I calibrated the levels of my amp to of course match the rest of my system's levels and compared what I heard by powering just my front two channels with both the receiver and then the amp to listen to music and find out if I made a good decision by buying an amp.

My Pass amp killed the onkyo's internal amplifier in terms of the way it sounded. The Onkyo sounded like a two dollar hooker, night and day difference and we are talking matched levels calibrated using my SPL meter.

There was no memory loss, it is that obvious.

Anyone with a receiver and an amp or two different amps can test this out. Just feed both amps a mono signal from the same source using a Y-cable and match levels. If you use a receiver and amp just let the receiver power one of the front two speakers and use the same channel preamp output on the receiver to power the amp and calibrate the levels and listen to both sides at one time. They both have the same exact source and levels.

Amps can and do sound different in the real world. Now you very well may come across many amps that do sound the same and I would blame that on mass produced crap that is manufactured with all the same internal parts from the same source and slapped together in different housings and add the name.

I have no doubt this guy has made it so it is easier to fail the test and the odds are in his favor, conduct your own test. I would have to see everything brand new off the shelf and put together for the test. This guy could of modified something that effects the end result especially the switcher. I think this was a money making scam if he charges people to take the test and he is offering a money prize, "buy a scratch-off ticket from me" !!!

This guy also reminds of some other BS I read recently about all CD players sounding the same. Well maybe so when you use the damn CD player as a transport and use the Toslink output and let the receiver do all the DAC.

Also I like how he says tube amps sound like garbage (not an exact quote but you get the point). Everyone's taste bud's are different and most people do not like the same flavors.

Alex I know you only brought this up for sake of discussion and I'm glad you did. Most of these people who believe this way all own the same equipment and buy it based on specs alone. They do not challenge themselves to "learn to hear" and push what they own on everyone else, hardly ever suggesting to someone they buy another product over their's. Hey, they bought it so why shouldn't you ???

It's not my fault you can't hear the differences so sorry for you, learn to listen !!! The science that provides the specs is not the same science that can prove why speaker wire's, amps, or CD players sound different to many, many people out there. That's like saying we should all look the same since we are all humans.

Don't fall for this crap or you are doomed to a boring life. Just because it looks good on paper does not guarantee it will sound all that great.

Squozen · 02-10-2009, 08:45 PM

I have only listened to four amps with my speakers, but each of them had their own sound. I do believe that as prices rise, the differences will be harder to discern - the two cheap amps were very obviously thin and brittle-sounding with my 4-ohm speakers as they were not capable of driving the load. That would obviously not be an issue with a competent amp.

crazyBLUE · 02-10-2009, 08:51 PM

[QUOTE

[/CENTER][/QUOTE]

ID rather have this^^^^^^^^^

Than this anyway's

saprano · 02-10-2009, 09:16 PM

Theres a thread about this same topic on AVS. got some good info.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1114207

Intamin · 02-10-2009, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saprano

Theres a thread about this same topic on AVS. got some good info.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1114207

That's where I got the link at the beginning of this thread and decided to bring the discussion over here to get another view on the entire ordeal. Like you guys, I agree in that amps do sound different, but did find the test interesting and at least worth a discussion. I was only playing devils advocate for the sake of debate.

Mdabb, I saw that about cd players and also laughed.

crackinhedz · 02-10-2009, 11:46 PM

WHAT?!! Who doesn't love their Ghetto Blaster?!

Driver_King · 02-10-2009, 11:50 PM

Of course there is no difference! The built-in amplifier in my cell phone is as good those overpriced tube amps and high-end amplifiers. Everyone knows that.

02-10-2009, 04:50 PM	#1
Intamin Power Member Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Houston Home Theater Gallery:38 Blu-ray collection:318	All Amplifiers Sound the Same? I came across this the other day, http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm and wanted to see what everyone here thought about the argument that all amps sound the same. I can't say I've done any scientific testing to agree or disagree, but I did find the results of the listening test interesting. Thoughts?

02-10-2009, 05:12 PM	#4
Gremal Blu-ray Samurai Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Feb 2007 Location:Daddyland Home Theater Gallery:49 Blu-ray collection:184	There are so many variables that come into play--I'm talking audibly--that it's not even up for debate. It's not just capacitors and resistors or even the chassis or the type of feet used, all of which have infinite variations. It's whether the amp designer paid attention to the way the circuits were grounded. For example, in my previous amp, 24 ground wires converged on a single binding post in the rear of the unit. Why? Because the designer found that you lose musical information if you don't carry each wire back from the circuit board individually. When manufacturers try to cut corners, you end up with gear that doesn't sound as open, detailed, natural and linear. Blind tests for this kind of thing are pointless. Where is the control for this blind test? Is there a strong experimenter expectancy effect? Is it double-blinded? These questions are rhetorical because the fact is that no definitive, scientific test can be set up to objectively study the issue. Last edited by Gremal; 02-10-2009 at 05:31 PM.

02-10-2009, 06:22 PM	#7
naturephoto1 Blu-ray Ninja Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Oct 2008 Location:Breinigsville, PA Home Theater Gallery:260 4K collection:21 Blu-ray collection:263	As Greg (Gremal) has pointed out there are a tremendous number of variables to be considered that can make comparisons and recognizing differences with consistency exceedingly difficult. The ear has to be well trained and to listen for certain cues. The ear (if you are trained to listen carefully and have the aptitude) can note minor changes in sound reproduction. Unfortunately what is and can be heard may be difficult to measure because we may not know what we should be measuring and thus the instrumentation is not set to note the differences. One big area to consider for differences in the sound of amps will be in the comparing of tube versus solid state. In addition, the design and topology, choice of components, wiring, and circuitry can contribute ultimately to sound reproduction. Not only will there be differences in the highs, mids, and lows that can be heard with different equipment, but you will also notice differences in the amount of air produced by a given amp, the imaging capabilities, the soundstage, depth and general dimensions of the entire rendering of the sound, attack, decay, dynamics, overtones, "how real they sound", etc. Rich Last edited by naturephoto1; 02-10-2009 at 08:51 PM.

Similar Threads
thread	Forum	Thread Starter	Replies	Last Post
A Guide to Amplifiers	Receivers	Big Daddy	56	01-16-2024 12:16 PM
The best amplifiers	Receivers	KingRadicalPhil	37	12-30-2010 03:00 PM
Understanding Amplifiers	Pre/Pro, Amplifiers and Separate Systems	Big Daddy	0	11-22-2009 02:00 PM
Amplifiers	Audio Theory and Discussion	BStecke	47	03-03-2008 12:33 AM
Need some help on amplifiers...	Home Theater General Discussion	Zaphod	1	08-02-2007 07:03 AM

02-10-2009, 05:00 PM	#2
Gremal Blu-ray Samurai Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Feb 2007 Location:Daddyland Home Theater Gallery:49 Blu-ray collection:184	Anyone with a pair of ears and a halfway decent rig can clearly hear that swapping out one amp for another can have a profound effect on the sound of your system...and I don't mean just tonally or in terms of soundstage, but even things as basic as level. There is a whole propeller cap crew that thinks they have "proven" that audio components don't matter by comparing spec's, "double-blind testing" (these are guys who have never set up a clinical trial in their lives and wouldn't know where to start). They are fond of measurements and trusting instruments over their ears. In the words of Daniel Von Recklinghausen, former engineer at H.H. Scott and editor of JAES, "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."

02-10-2009, 05:33 PM	#5
naturephoto1 Blu-ray Ninja Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Oct 2008 Location:Breinigsville, PA Home Theater Gallery:260 4K collection:21 Blu-ray collection:263	I glanced at the link. Regardless of the results and the fact that no one has passed does not mean that all amps sound the same. They do not. Rich

02-10-2009, 07:41 PM	#10
Gremal Blu-ray Samurai Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Feb 2007 Location:Daddyland Home Theater Gallery:49 Blu-ray collection:184	To further explain what I mean by the experiment "control", the testers have not proven that ANY gear can test "different" in their study. In any scientific study, there are ways to determine false results. In this study there is no control.

02-10-2009, 08:32 PM	#12
Big Daddy Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Southern California Home Theater Gallery:79 Blu-ray collection:122 Trading Score:1	Apparently this $350,000 WaVac amplifier sounds the same as the 5 watt amplifiers in boom boxes. Maybe I should head to Wal_mart and trade my A/V equipment for a $50 boom box. EQUALS

02-10-2009, 08:36 PM	#14
mdabb Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Trading Score:1	I can remember before I had my two channel preamp and I had my Pass Labs amp and my receiver. I calibrated the levels of my amp to of course match the rest of my system's levels and compared what I heard by powering just my front two channels with both the receiver and then the amp to listen to music and find out if I made a good decision by buying an amp. My Pass amp killed the onkyo's internal amplifier in terms of the way it sounded. The Onkyo sounded like a two dollar hooker, night and day difference and we are talking matched levels calibrated using my SPL meter. There was no memory loss, it is that obvious. Anyone with a receiver and an amp or two different amps can test this out. Just feed both amps a mono signal from the same source using a Y-cable and match levels. If you use a receiver and amp just let the receiver power one of the front two speakers and use the same channel preamp output on the receiver to power the amp and calibrate the levels and listen to both sides at one time. They both have the same exact source and levels. Amps can and do sound different in the real world. Now you very well may come across many amps that do sound the same and I would blame that on mass produced crap that is manufactured with all the same internal parts from the same source and slapped together in different housings and add the name. I have no doubt this guy has made it so it is easier to fail the test and the odds are in his favor, conduct your own test. I would have to see everything brand new off the shelf and put together for the test. This guy could of modified something that effects the end result especially the switcher. I think this was a money making scam if he charges people to take the test and he is offering a money prize, "buy a scratch-off ticket from me" !!! This guy also reminds of some other BS I read recently about all CD players sounding the same. Well maybe so when you use the damn CD player as a transport and use the Toslink output and let the receiver do all the DAC. Also I like how he says tube amps sound like garbage (not an exact quote but you get the point). Everyone's taste bud's are different and most people do not like the same flavors. Alex I know you only brought this up for sake of discussion and I'm glad you did. Most of these people who believe this way all own the same equipment and buy it based on specs alone. They do not challenge themselves to "learn to hear" and push what they own on everyone else, hardly ever suggesting to someone they buy another product over their's. Hey, they bought it so why shouldn't you ??? It's not my fault you can't hear the differences so sorry for you, learn to listen !!! The science that provides the specs is not the same science that can prove why speaker wire's, amps, or CD players sound different to many, many people out there. That's like saying we should all look the same since we are all humans. Don't fall for this crap or you are doomed to a boring life. Just because it looks good on paper does not guarantee it will sound all that great.

02-10-2009, 08:45 PM	#15
Squozen Senior Member Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Melbourne, Australia Home Theater Gallery:17 Blu-ray collection:80	I have only listened to four amps with my speakers, but each of them had their own sound. I do believe that as prices rise, the differences will be harder to discern - the two cheap amps were very obviously thin and brittle-sounding with my 4-ohm speakers as they were not capable of driving the load. That would obviously not be an issue with a competent amp.

02-10-2009, 08:51 PM	#16
crazyBLUE Moderator Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Aug 2008 Location:Pacific Northwest Home Theater Gallery:89 Blu-ray collection:479 DVD collection:1 Blu-ray reviews: 38 Trading Score:30	[QUOTE [/CENTER][/QUOTE] ID rather have this^^^^^^^^^ Than this anyway's

02-10-2009, 09:16 PM	#17
saprano Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Oct 2007 Location:Bronx, New York Blu-ray collection:495 Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:9	Theres a thread about this same topic on AVS. got some good info. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1114207

02-10-2009, 11:46 PM	#19
crackinhedz Super Moderator Member since:Feb 2007 Home Theater Gallery:10 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:19	WHAT?!! Who doesn't love their Ghetto Blaster?!

02-10-2009, 11:50 PM	#20
Driver_King Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Tampa Bay, Florida Home Theater Gallery:96 Blu-ray collection:28 Trading Score:10	Of course there is no difference! The built-in amplifier in my cell phone is as good those overpriced tube amps and high-end amplifiers. Everyone knows that.

Best Blu-ray Movie Deals