How can I get lossless?

[inlayterms]

As my sig should show, my receiver is a Parasound AVC-1800. It doesn't have HDMI inputs (or capabilities, for that matter), so I'm using an optical cable for games and movies (thus limiting myself to lossy sound). My receiver, however, does have discreet 5.1 multiple analog inputs.

So, short of selling my receiver, is there an HDMI converter that I can purchase to connect my PS3 to my Parasound AVC-1800 in order to get lossless sound? If not, will a Blu-ray player with 5.1 analog outputs suffice for me to get "the good stuff"?

Thanks.

[J6P]

There's no way to get lossless multi-channel out of a PS3 without using HDMI.

You can, as you seem to have already figured out, enjoy lossless Blu-ray sound with your current receiver if you get a dedicated player with both analogue output and internal decoding of TrueHD and DTS HD: Master Audio.

Now you just need to decide if it makes more sense to upgrade the receiver to one with HDMI and continue using the PS3 for Blu, or stick with the current receiver and get a dedicated player.

[inlayterms]

Originally Posted by J6P

There's no way to get lossless multi-channel out of a PS3 without using HDMI.

You can, as you seem to have already figured out, enjoy lossless Blu-ray sound with your current receiver if you get a dedicated player with both analogue output and internal decoding of TrueHD and DTS HD: Master Audio.

Now you just need to decide if it makes more sense to upgrade the receiver to one with HDMI and continue using the PS3 for Blu, or stick with the current receiver and get a dedicated player.

O.K., so, given my setup, an internal decoder is needed. Thank-you. I think I'm going to keep the receiver, it fits with the rest of my equipment, and I'm happy to give the PS3 a break from playing Blu-ray and dedicate it to games. Do you recommend any good Blu-ray players with internal decoding (perhaps a Sony)?

[Rob J in WNY]

inlayterms,

Here is a product which has been mentioned on the forums a few times:

http://www.ambery.com/2hddodtsdihd.html

Check it out. I have not read of anyone who has tried it yet, but it should be able to convert the decoded multichannel LPCM from your PS3 to multichannel analog for you. I'm not sure it has a way to downconvert 7.1 channel material to 5.1 (as your receiver is limited to 5.1 channel analog inputs), but it's a workaround for now.

Cost is $128.00.

[J6P]

I'd be hesitant to give up that Parasound as well -- it's got plenty of good years ahead of it.

There's a bit of a hole in the new Sony lineup as far as analog outs are concerned. The BDP-S550 had them last year, but they've been dropped from its successor, the BDP-S560, which streets in two or three weeks.

They do appear on the new ES model though, if you don't mind paying more. Check out the BDP-S1000ES, also due in at the end of August. It's your only play short of finding an S550 unsold on the shelf somewhere.

[doctorD]

Originally Posted by inlayterms

As my sig should show, my receiver is a Parasound AVC-1800. It doesn't have HDMI inputs (or capabilities, for that matter), so I'm using an optical cable for games and movies (thus limiting myself to lossy sound). My receiver, however, does have discreet 5.1 multiple analog inputs.

So, short of selling my receiver, is there an HDMI converter that I can purchase to connect my PS3 to my Parasound AVC-1800 in order to get lossless sound? If not, will a Blu-ray player with 5.1 analog outputs suffice for me to get "the good stuff"?

Thanks.

You can get lossless audio using Multichannel Analog connection if your player is capable of decoding which the PS3 is, but unfortunately the PS3 can't use this type of connection. Here is a thread created by one of the experts on this site. Take a read...it has some good info for you.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=40821

[BIslander]

There are a few boxes like the one mentioned above that do HDMI-analog conversions. But, they lack bass management, which means you'll probably get worse sound, not better.

Also, you can enjoy improved audio on BD, even without lossless. The DTS core on BD is just about as good as dts-MA, perhaps as good. And, the 640kbps DD 5.1 tracks are not far behind.

But, if you really want lossless, there are several good players with decoders and analog outputs to consider in the $300-500 range.

[collingwood01]

If you don'y want to buy another Bluray player and you want to keep your amp, you can connect the HDMI cable from you ps3 to this device in the web page below to get lossless. The ps3 can do all the internal decoding.

http://www.ambery.com/2hddodtsdihd.html

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by collingwood01

If you don'y want to buy another Bluray player and you want to keep your amp, you can connect the HDMI cable from you ps3 to this device in the web page below to get lossless. The ps3 can do all the internal decoding.

http://www.ambery.com/2hddodtsdihd.html

As I said..

Originally Posted by BIslander

There are a few boxes like the one mentioned above that do HDMI-analog conversions. But, they lack bass management, which means you'll probably get worse sound, not better.

[inlayterms]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. It seems that a new Blu-ray player with analog outs is what I'll be looking to get sometime in the future (now, to edit the "Pursuit of Perfection" thread in the Home Theatre General Discussion forums).

But, two other questions come to mind:

First, let's say I was to consider one of the HDMI to multiple analog outputs. Would the converter also have an HDMI output to go to my TV (as it stands, my PS3 runs HDMI to my TV and optical to my receiver).

Second, if I do get a Blue-ray player with multiple analog outputs, am I losing any quality in the lossless sound that one would get with a receiver that has HDMI inputs, or is the player taking care of the sound when it decodes the digital track (I hope this makes sense).

Thanks again.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by inlayterms

if I do get a Blue-ray player with multiple analog outputs, I am losing any quality in the lossless sound that one would get with a receiver that has HDMI inputs, or is the player taking care of the sound when it decodes the digital track (I hope this makes sense).

Remember - the audio ends up analog either way.

With HDMI, the receiver handles all audio processing, including bass management, distance/timing adjustments, EQ to deal with room issues, and the digital-analog conversion. With analog, the player performs all of those tasks. If the AVR has better processing tools and DACs, then it will produice better sound. If the player has better tools and DACs, then it will produce better sound.

Generally, most AVRs are better equipped for audio processing than most players. But, it really depends on your specific equipment and the requirements of your listening room.

[inlayterms]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Remember - the audio ends up analog either way.

With HDMI, the receiver handles all audio processing, including bass management, distance/timing adjustments, EQ to deal with room issues, and the digital-analog conversion. With analog, the player performs all of those tasks. If the AVR has better processing tools and DACs, then it will produice better sound. If the player has better tools and DACs, then it will produce better sound.

Generally, most AVRs are better equipped for audio processing than most players. But, it really depends on your specific equipment and the requirements of your listening room.

That's good to know. Thanks. Would I be wrong to believe that a good Blu-ray player (such as this BDP-S1000ES that J6P suggested) will provide me with better sound than the lossless that I am currently getting with my setup?

[JayStarr]

It's all the same sound anyway, people. Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS and DTS Master Audio. All the same. 48kHz. Both the Dts and Dolby websites says that their technology supports "up to" 192kHz. But apparently those great folks who make the Blu-Ray discs aren't up to the task of encoding anything other than 48kHz. I wish I knew why. I guess the, in my opinion, unjustified extra cost of buying a Blu-Ray disc over a DVD is all in the picture quality and BD Live type features.

If anyone reading this knows of a Blu-Ray Disc with audio AND video with the audio being any higher than 48kHz, please spill the beans and let me know. I dying to hear it....

[prerich]

Originally Posted by inlayterms

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. It seems that a new Blu-ray player with analog outs is what I'll be looking to get sometime in the future (now, to edit the "Pursuit of Perfection" thread in the Home Theatre General Discussion forums).

But, two other questions come to mind:

First, let's say I was to consider one of the HDMI to multiple analog outputs. Would the converter also have an HDMI output to go to my TV (as it stands, my PS3 runs HDMI to my TV and optical to my receiver).

Second, if I do get a Blue-ray player with multiple analog outputs, I am losing any quality in the lossless sound that one would get with a receiver that has HDMI inputs, or is the player taking care of the sound when it decodes the digital track (I hope this makes sense).

Thanks again.

Yes the ambery device has an HDMI out for the Video while going HD analog audio out. I started the thread on this device months ago as a workaround for PS3 users with High-end equipment that they just don't want to get rid of.

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by JayStarr

It's all the same sound anyway, people. Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS and DTS Master Audio. All the same. 48kHz. Both the Dts and Dolby websites says that their technology supports "up to" 192kHz. But apparently those great folks who make the Blu-Ray discs aren't up to the task of encoding anything other than 48kHz. I wish I knew why. I guess the, in my opinion, unjustified extra cost of buying a Blu-Ray disc over a DVD is all in the picture quality and BD Live type features.

If anyone reading this knows of a Blu-Ray Disc with audio AND video with the audio being any higher than 48kHz, please spill the beans and let me know. I dying to hear it....

so your saying that regular Dolby Digital is just the same as Dolby True HD or DTS MA?? i dont buy that one...

[Tok]

Originally Posted by inlayterms

If not, will a Blu-ray player with 5.1 analog outputs suffice for me to get "the good stuff"?

Thanks.

Yes. The current Panasonic BD80 has the 5.1/7.1 outputs with internal decoding of DolbyTrueHD and dts-HDMA.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Pelican170

so your saying that regular Dolby Digital is just the same as Dolby True HD or DTS MA?? i dont buy that one...

It is not the same. Standard DD decoded is decoded to a 16-bit/48kHz PCM stream, but the resulting PCM stream is NOT identical to the original PCM master. That is why standard DD and dts are referred to as 'lossy' codecs. Data is thrown out during the encoding process.

DolbyTrueHD and dts-HDMA when decoded are 'bit-for-bit' identical to the master PCM track or in other words 'lossless.'

The problem is that some usually those that don't have 'lossless' capable gear claim that standard DD or dts are 'good enough' or 'indistinguishable' from lossless tracks.

I can tell just like after getting used to 1080p video and then trying to watch 480 content that after a steady diet lossless tracks that lossy audio does not come close or in other words it is NOT 'good enough.'

I threw on the end of Episode III on DVD and I could not believe how unimpressive the audio was after primarily listening to lossless audio for over a year. Something was missing.

[BIslander]

That's one of two comparisons that need to be done. But only one.

Lossy on DVD is almost always encoded at less than the maximum bitrates to save space - usually at 754kbps for DTS and 384 for DD 5.1. Blu-ray has more space and those same lossy tracks are usually encoded at much higher rates - 1509 for the DTS core and 640 for Dolby. Those "same" lossy tracks sound much better on Blu than they do on DVD.

Does lossless sound better than the max bitrate lossy tracks on Blu? Usually not, in my opinion, especially with DTS.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by JayStarr

It's all the same sound anyway, people. Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS and DTS Master Audio. All the same. 48kHz.

No, not the same, as others have noted. But, yes, most masters are recorded at 48kHz. So, that specific element is generally the same.

If anyone reading this knows of a Blu-Ray Disc with audio AND video with the audio being any higher than 48kHz, please spill the beans and let me know. I dying to hear it....

This is a good site for that kind of informnation:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php

Filter on the Audio dropdown.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by BIslander

That's one of two comparisons that need to be done. But only one.

Lossy on DVD is almost always encoded at less than the maximum bitrates to save space - usually at 754kbps for DTS and 384 for DD 5.1. Blu-ray has more space and those same lossy tracks are usually encoded at much higher rates - 1509 for the DTS core and 640 for Dolby. Those "same" lossy tracks sound much better on Blu than they do on DVD.

Does lossless sound better than the max bitrate lossy tracks on Blu? Usually not, in my opinion, especially with DTS.

I am not going to get sucked into a DD v. dts debate.

Many DVDs are in fact encoded at with DD@448kbps. It was WHV that was fixated on the 384kbps rate for many years.

As far as the maxrate lossy tracks on Blu, I guess I have never cared to compare them. They just exist as a stop gap for those that haven't upgraded yet. They probably are a little better than the lower rates found on DVD, but I doubt with with complex audio designs that they are much better than the standard DVD tracks.

At least with lossless you know that it is probably the closest you will ever get to the master audio stems at home.