Plasma "upgrade" concern - Blu-ray Forum

ZzEther · 10-16-2009, 06:04 AM

Hello out there! Let me lay this out as best I can. I have a Visio VF550M 55" LCD atm. It is a great set with with pretty dang awesome PQ. Everything I watch is stunning EXCEPT THE BLACK LEVELS. It's got the slightest "flashlight" effect in the top corners and letterbox bars are NEARLY pitch black but not TOTALLY pitch black. They're like that darkest gray you're "supposed" to see on the calibration videos, but still visible.

Here's my problem: it also has "Smooth Motion" as it's a 120hz set. You know the setting I'm talking about, the one that makes the picture look "too real" and most people hate? It makes everything look 3D and you can actually see too clearly that everything was shot on a movie set etc...

With that setting turned on...yes....everything looks like a soap opera but I love it! I want to get a plasma for the blacks but I don't want to lose that feature. I've not been able to find any definite prospects.

I figure I can get $800-$900 for this set plus toss in $1000 of my own money so that puts me in around the $2000 range and I'd like something 54" or so, I know I would make myself crazy dropping down to a 50" for some reason.

Yes I know plasmas are blur-free, yes I know it's not what the director intended, yes I know it looks like behind-the-scenes footage and a soap opera. I also know that it's the TV "inventing" frames that were never there to begin with. Call me crazy but I like it and I want it in a plasma. Are there any out there?

Kryptonic · 10-16-2009, 09:53 AM

Plasma doesn't have that feature because plasma has naturally better motion response and it's not needed. So no, you're not going to find that kind of unnatural look on a plasma. When you have the motion enhancer turned on, you're effectively watching a botched version of whatever film/show you're viewing. You might as well be watching a pan & scan version.

xneox · 10-16-2009, 11:00 AM

What Kryp said.

You'll have to stick with LCD if you like that feature. To get pq close to that of a plasma, you'll have to spend some coin. Sony XBR8 (if you can find one) is the only one...or wait for the next iteration of Sony's local-dimming LED-backlit LCD displays (XBR10 or 11?).

Samsung, LG and Toshiba also have local-dimming LED-backlit LCDs...

ZzEther · 10-17-2009, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

Plasma doesn't have that feature because plasma has naturally better motion response and it's not needed. So no, you're not going to find that kind of unnatural look on a plasma. When you have the motion enhancer turned on, you're effectively watching a botched version of whatever film/show you're viewing. You might as well be watching a pan & scan version.

Yeah I know...I know. I don't use the feature all the time, but I like it when I'm on SD sources or sports. For instance, I don't like NASCAR or the Dew Sports stuff, but I enjoying turning Smooth Motion on and oogling at those things, they look amazing.

My girlfriend likes Will and Grace and we only get that in SD so when I am forced to watch it, I prefer to watch the TV do it's smoothing magic than the actual show. Things like that.

Rob J in WNY · 10-17-2009, 01:21 AM

ZzEther,

"Frame interpolation" is utilized in LCD technology, and it helps to overcome some of the "motion blur" which is inherent to LCDs, as well as frame judder. The side-effect of the "live" look is really a by-product, but some people really like the look. I was amazed by it at first, but have grown to completely shut off the frame interpolation on my Sony XBR4 (Sony calls it "MotionFlow"). The overall picture quality gains by shutting it off were too great to give up!

Bascially, with frame interpolation on, your LCD TV generates frame images which fit "in between" the native frames of your video source. Powerful processing derives a "sum and difference" imaging process to approximate image appearance in between the native frames. Smooth the motion, it does extraordinarily well, but I have yet to see an LCD TV which does not produce image artifacting with this feature turned on. Also, the intermediate frames are close, but not always as sharp as the native frames, and so some image degradation often occurs.

The "live" or "soap opera" effect seems to be more pronounced when using frame interpolation with SD sources over HD, such as Blu-ray. DVD and SD cable/satellite look much more "live."

Just thought I'd throw in the obligatory knowledge that turning off a 120Hz LCD TV's frame interpolation feature does not turn the "120Hz" aspect of the TV. It will always refresh the screen 120 times per second, whether it's on or off.

Take the time to really look at good plasma TVs if good black levels and reduced motion blur are important to you. Try to view plasma TVs in a more high-end store, under the direction of a knowledgeable sales associate. Plasmas do tend to look "dimmer" than LCDs, but a properly calibrated LCD will look dimmer like a plasma...lol. In typical "big box" sales environments, the intense store lighting facilitates the need for brighter displays, and often, the LCD TVs are set to their most dynamially bright settings, which really isn't a fair comparison to a properly calibrated image.

Happy TV hunting!

If you really like the look of frame interpolation and want richer blacks, then one of the local dimming LED LCDs is right up your alley. They are a bit pricier, but you probably won't regret the purchase.

ZzEther · 10-17-2009, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob J in WNY

If you really like the look of frame interpolation and want richer blacks, then one of the local dimming LED LCDs is right up your alley. They are a bit pricier, but you probably won't regret the purchase.

This thought had occurred to me but something tells me the next generation of LED LCDs will have twice the number of LED backlights and make the local dimming feature even better. I dunno, maybe I'll check out the current generation and mull it over some more.

I tried watching Pirates with the feature on after I got the TV and I didn't like it, it gets shut off for movies. But one other thing I forgot to mention is games. Dirt 2 looks spectacular with the feature turned on so it turns out I like the feature for about HALF of the stuff I use the TV for. Just going to have to make a decision I guess. But these black levels (or lack thereof) really irk me.

Thanks for the replies!

10-16-2009, 06:04 AM	#1
ZzEther Junior Member Member since:Oct 2009 Blu-ray collection:56	Plasma "upgrade" concern Hello out there! Let me lay this out as best I can. I have a Visio VF550M 55" LCD atm. It is a great set with with pretty dang awesome PQ. Everything I watch is stunning EXCEPT THE BLACK LEVELS. It's got the slightest "flashlight" effect in the top corners and letterbox bars are NEARLY pitch black but not TOTALLY pitch black. They're like that darkest gray you're "supposed" to see on the calibration videos, but still visible. Here's my problem: it also has "Smooth Motion" as it's a 120hz set. You know the setting I'm talking about, the one that makes the picture look "too real" and most people hate? It makes everything look 3D and you can actually see too clearly that everything was shot on a movie set etc... With that setting turned on...yes....everything looks like a soap opera but I love it! I want to get a plasma for the blacks but I don't want to lose that feature. I've not been able to find any definite prospects. I figure I can get $800-$900 for this set plus toss in $1000 of my own money so that puts me in around the $2000 range and I'd like something 54" or so, I know I would make myself crazy dropping down to a 50" for some reason. Yes I know plasmas are blur-free, yes I know it's not what the director intended, yes I know it looks like behind-the-scenes footage and a soap opera. I also know that it's the TV "inventing" frames that were never there to begin with. Call me crazy but I like it and I want it in a plasma. Are there any out there?

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10-16-2009, 09:53 AM	#2
Kryptonic Suspended Member since:Jul 2009 Trading Score:45	Plasma doesn't have that feature because plasma has naturally better motion response and it's not needed. So no, you're not going to find that kind of unnatural look on a plasma. When you have the motion enhancer turned on, you're effectively watching a botched version of whatever film/show you're viewing. You might as well be watching a pan & scan version.

10-16-2009, 11:00 AM	#3
xneox Expert Member Member since:Jan 2009 Location:Hartford, CT	What Kryp said. You'll have to stick with LCD if you like that feature. To get pq close to that of a plasma, you'll have to spend some coin. Sony XBR8 (if you can find one) is the only one...or wait for the next iteration of Sony's local-dimming LED-backlit LCD displays (XBR10 or 11?). Samsung, LG and Toshiba also have local-dimming LED-backlit LCDs...

10-17-2009, 01:21 AM	#5
Rob J in WNY Blu-ray Guru Member since:Dec 2008 Location:'Western' N.Y. State (MEMBER OF THE "ECPP")™ Home Theater Gallery:24 4K collection:30 Blu-ray collection:486 iTunes collection:1 Blu-ray reviews: 15	ZzEther, "Frame interpolation" is utilized in LCD technology, and it helps to overcome some of the "motion blur" which is inherent to LCDs, as well as frame judder. The side-effect of the "live" look is really a by-product, but some people really like the look. I was amazed by it at first, but have grown to completely shut off the frame interpolation on my Sony XBR4 (Sony calls it "MotionFlow"). The overall picture quality gains by shutting it off were too great to give up! Bascially, with frame interpolation on, your LCD TV generates frame images which fit "in between" the native frames of your video source. Powerful processing derives a "sum and difference" imaging process to approximate image appearance in between the native frames. Smooth the motion, it does extraordinarily well, but I have yet to see an LCD TV which does not produce image artifacting with this feature turned on. Also, the intermediate frames are close, but not always as sharp as the native frames, and so some image degradation often occurs. The "live" or "soap opera" effect seems to be more pronounced when using frame interpolation with SD sources over HD, such as Blu-ray. DVD and SD cable/satellite look much more "live." Just thought I'd throw in the obligatory knowledge that turning off a 120Hz LCD TV's frame interpolation feature does not turn the "120Hz" aspect of the TV. It will always refresh the screen 120 times per second, whether it's on or off. Take the time to really look at good plasma TVs if good black levels and reduced motion blur are important to you. Try to view plasma TVs in a more high-end store, under the direction of a knowledgeable sales associate. Plasmas do tend to look "dimmer" than LCDs, but a properly calibrated LCD will look dimmer like a plasma...lol. In typical "big box" sales environments, the intense store lighting facilitates the need for brighter displays, and often, the LCD TVs are set to their most dynamially bright settings, which really isn't a fair comparison to a properly calibrated image. Happy TV hunting! If you really like the look of frame interpolation and want richer blacks, then one of the local dimming LED LCDs is right up your alley. They are a bit pricier, but you probably won't regret the purchase.

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