My Paradigm PDR-8 subwoofers are not making the grade

[inlayterms]

Hey guys. My equipment is listed below in my signature. As you can see, I have two Paradigm PDR-8 subwoofers, the specs for which can be found here at http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...4-5-9.paradigm. As you can see, the low frequency extension of these subs is only 35hz.

Now, I bought these subs because they are part of the recommended system and are meant to compliment my centre speaker and surround sound speakers. My problem is that, while I can certainly "hear" the subwoofers working, I'm not able to "feel" them, that is, I don't get that rumble in my belly as I do when I listen to other subwoofers.

I've tried placing the subwoofers in different positions (but haven't tried the "subwoofer crawl" as I don't yet have cable long enough to do so). As it stands, my subwoofers are placed about 1/4 of the distance in from each of the side walls, and about 1 foot away from the front wall, of my listening room. The subwoofers are also sitting on a concrete floor.

My questions is whether or not there is anything I can do to "feel" my subwoofers and not just "hear" them. Should I perform the "subwoofer crawl", build a riser, place them along the side walls, etc. or are my subwoofers just not sufficient to get that "rumble" in my belly? I ask because a friend of mine has two Paradigm PS-1000 subwoofers and the difference between them and mine is night and day.

I hope to one day upgrade all of my speakers to the Paradigm Studio line, but until then was wondering if there is any point in trying to do anything else with the subwoofers that I currently have. Thanks.

[Driver_King]

Two suggestions: Place the subwoofers in opposite corners of each other for the most output. Second, build two subwoofer riser/isolators to increase output and to improve sound quality. It will also help with the concrete floor's absorption of the bass. The DIY riser thread will help you out building subwoofer risers. After all is said and done, please don't forget to re-run your auto-calibration system, adjust the phase, crossovers, distances, and such. That should help a lot.

[inlayterms]

Originally Posted by Driver_King

Two suggestions: Place the subwoofers in opposite corners of each other for the most output. Second, build two subwoofer riser/isolators to increase output and to improve sound quality. It will also help with the concrete floor's absorption of the bass. The DIY riser thread will help you out building subwoofer risers. After all is said and done, please don't forget to re-run your auto-calibration system, adjust the phase, crossovers, distances, and such. That should help a lot.

Thanks for the reply. While I intend to build a riser and perform the subwoofer crawl, I suppose what I'm asking is whether or not, given the specs of my subs, I should be able to set them up so that I will feel rumble, or whether or not my subs are not big enough to do so.

[Driver_King]

Your subwoofers are small, but then again, Elemental Designs has 6.5" subwoofers that can easily handle subsonic frequencies and have a nice amount of impact. It all depends on your room and what happens when it is all said and done. Make sure the subwoofer's are calibrated to 75dB. You may not feel too much impact during movies due to their 32hz bass extension. They simply do not have similar bass extension or output like larger subwoofers offer.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by inlayterms

. or are my subwoofers just not sufficient to get that "rumble" in my belly? I ask because a friend of mine has two Paradigm PS-1000 subwoofers and the difference between them and mine is night and day.

I don't think your woofers are large enough to get the effect you are looking for. I don't feel an 8in woofer will get the job done, I do know that a 10in woofer is a good start and that is what your friend has.

Your comparing your 2 subs(8in, 100watts RMS) to his 2 subs(10in, 250watts RMS), the difference isn't night and day like you say, it's really 150watts RMS more then yours and that's really going to show.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by inlayterms

Hey guys. My equipment is listed below in my signature. As you can see, I have two Paradigm PDR-8 subwoofers, the specs for which can be found here at http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...4-5-9.paradigm. As you can see, the low frequency extension of these subs is only 35hz.

Now, I bought these subs because they are part of the recommended system and are meant to compliment my centre speaker and surround sound speakers. My problem is that, while I can certainly "hear" the subwoofers working, I'm not able to "feel" them, that is, I don't get that rumble in my belly as I do when I listen to other subwoofers.

I've tried placing the subwoofers in different positions (but haven't tried the "subwoofer crawl" as I don't yet have cable long enough to do so). As it stands, my subwoofers are placed about 1/4 of the distance in from each of the side walls, and about 1 foot away from the front wall, of my listening room. The subwoofers are also sitting on a concrete floor.

My questions is whether or not there is anything I can do to "feel" my subwoofers and not just "hear" them. Should I perform the "subwoofer crawl", build a riser, place them along the side walls, etc. or are my subwoofers just not sufficient to get that "rumble" in my belly? I ask because a friend of mine has two Paradigm PS-1000 subwoofers and the difference between them and mine is night and day.

I hope to one day upgrade all of my speakers to the Paradigm Studio line, but until then was wondering if there is any point in trying to do anything else with the subwoofers that I currently have. Thanks.

The PDR-8s are great for music, since other than rap and hip hop you don't often have musical information below 35 Hz. However, with their conventional design they won't provide the gut thumping impact you're seeking or movie soundtracks.

If you're set on Paradigm for a sub, I would recommend checking out the DSP 3100 or the UltraCube. However, I would highly recommend that you look at subwoofers from other companies as well. I think you'll find you can get more bang for the buck elsewhere, epsecially now that Paradigm has discontinued the PDR-12 and PS line.

[Driver_King]

What you could also do is purchase larger subwoofers for lower bass duties while the Paradigms handle the upper bass frequencies as they are made for. That would be ideal. Maybe two MFW-15's or eD A5-300's?

[efesbe]

My single MFW is already giving me a heart attack and it's not even in it's ideal spot for best sound. I would go for the MFW if you're planning on purchasing. Then again, I have no other experience with other subs except the a2-300 from eD.

[Big Daddy]

The subwoofers you own have a low frequency extension around 35Hz. Many of the new blockbuster movies go down to 20Hz or lower. For music applications, you should be ok.

you can do the following to maximize the output of your subwoofers:

1. Go to Wal-Mart and buy two bags of polyfill (the same kind people use in pillows) from the craft and fabric department. They are less than $5 per bag. Open the subwoofers and add about a bag of polyfill to each sub. Make sure the polyfill is loose and don't overstuff the subwooferS and keep the pollyfill away from the inside of the drivers. Polyfill has the effect of making the subwoofers think that they are bigger and you will get lower frequency and tighther bass output.
2. Your subwoofers have two line level inputs. Buy two Y adapters (2 male, 1 female) and connect the sub cables to both the right and left inputs on the back of the subwoofers. A Y adapter can increase the output from each subwoofer by about 3dB to 6dB.
3. Putting the subwoofers on risers can also be helpful.
4. Placement in the room is perhaps the most important factor in affecting the performance of the subwoofers. Follow the guidelines in the following diagrams.
5. On the back of the subwoofers, turn their crossovers all the way up to the maximum point (150Hz).
6. On the back of the subwoofer, turn their level to 60%-70%. You can adjust it a little later.
7. When you adjust the levels of the subwoofers, it may be possible that one may be a bit louder than the other one in your main listening position. Increase the level of the one that is not quite as loud.
8. In the receiver's menu, set all you speakers to small.
9. Set your crossover frequency in the receiver to 80Hz. If any of your speakers do not have a low frequency extension that go down to 80Hz, make sure you set their crossover a little higher.
10. Run the calibration program inside the receiver.
11. Read A Guide to Bass Management. Most of the above are discussed in that thread.

EVALUATION OF DIFFERENT OPTIONS FOR PLACEMENT OF MULTIPLE SUBWOOFERS


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[inlayterms]

Thanks everyone for your advice, opinions and suggestions.

Some of you have suggested that my subwoofers are too small, while Driver_King has mentioned a 6.5" subwoofer that can produce the frequencies required to "feel" the bass. As it stands, my subwoofers are placed in the "very good" location indicated in Big Daddy's thread and I really don't "feel" any bass.

If I follow up on the advice given (i.e. riser, subwoofer crawl, polyfill, etc.), will my subwoofers actually play lower than the 35Hz they are rated at, or will I only be able to get down to 35hz?

[Driver_King]

The Poly-fill would be the only thing that would physically change the performance of the subwoofer (a.k.a. lowering the tuning frequency of the subwoofers). The subwoofer crawl will enable you to discover the optimal placement for your subwoofers and a riser will serve as isolation as well as a performance enhancer for your subwoofer.

[inlayterms]

Thanks again, Driver_King.

A friend of mine suggested that I place the subwoofers by my lazy-boy recliner.

If I was to do so, should I place the subwoofers next to my seat or behind it? In either case, which way should the subwoofers face (note: they are rear ported)? I guess I could place them next to my seat with the subwoofers facing my seat, towards the front soundstage or away from my seat. Or, I could place them behind my seat facing the front soundstage or back-to-back. Are any of these placements recommended?

[jomari]

i think one important factor we forgot to inquire about is how large the room is. if we are using these two subwoofers for a good 12x12 room, or a medium size room, it SHOULD suffice. but if its for a larger room, then we'd definitely have to reconsider our game plan.

of course, placement is one other reason why the subwoofer isnt performing to its best.

consider the points that bd has mentioned (as well as the others), and inform us the room dimensions so we can further assess your situation. no point in going around doing the crawl when the room would be 20x 24.

in regards to placement, as you can see, bd has also placed information about how to maximize the said subwoofers. again, a matter of preference, a matter of time consuming placement, as well as a number of test using frequency sweeps et al.

the 35hz is the lowest your subwoofer can get, so considering that in mind, i dont think you can hit any lower, let alone feel 'more' out of it if we have frequencies going 20hz (ive heard the kfp skidoosh scene qualifies for subsonic). if you play the said material, your sub will only reproduce anything over 35hz, but not lower. just a matter of physics. it wasnt built to handle it.

[inlayterms]

Thanks, jomari. To answer your question, my room is about 12' x 18'.

I suppose I should just save up for some new subwoofers, but that will take some time. Until then, I just want to be able to get the most out of the ones that I do have.

By the way, I looked at the pictures of you filling your subwoofer with polyfill. Is the difference noticeable?

Again, though, what do you think of placing the subwoofers right next to, or behind, my chair? Does that seem like a worthwhile idea? I'd like some feedback on this, if possible, because I don't want to spend money on longer cables right now to do so, if placing them there is not recommended.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by inlayterms

Thanks, jomari. To answer your question, my room is about 12' x 18'.

I suppose I should just save up for some new subwoofers, but that will take some time. Until then, I just want to be able to get the most out of the ones that I do have.

okay, 12x18 is doable with your two subwoofers, but imo could be better. i hate recommending people to outright buy buy buy new things, when we can worko with what we can.

By the way, I looked at the pictures of you filling your subwoofer with polyfill. Is the difference noticeable?

That wasnt me, that was my bot doing that for me. on a serious note, yes, there is noticeable difference post-operation. night and day? not really, but a nicer, cleaner bass so to speak.

Again, though, what do you think of placing the subwoofers right next to, or behind, my chair? Does that seem like a worthwhile idea? I'd like some feedback on this, if possible, because I don't want to spend money on longer cables right now to do so, if placing them there is not recommended.

aside from bds suggestions, try it and see. putting one sub closer to your seating area should be able to even out the response in the room. but then again, you might be losing out on the 'thump' you'd want in the front. thus the sub located one in the front of the room and in the back, is suggested to even out dual subs.

put it this way -

spending for a new longer cable is well worth it compared to buying two different subwoofers right?

better yet, use one of the RCA cables, and use a connector to extend it for the meantime.

rinse and repeat.

placement is key in getting the best out of your current subwoofers. id suggest to also add pics of your current system in your gallery for further analysis. dont worry, you can always pull it down afterwards.

we can assist you with your room, but we can only do so much here. the best approach i can suggest is...

1. get a spl meter. do some reading in the spl meter thread.
2. get two longer RCA cables. insulated? sure. if you dont want to buy em again.
3. placement study. see where and how to place the subs, then see if it fits into your current living conditions.

as bd has mentioned, a number of members would place their subs out of convenience, instead of optimal performance. im guilty of that to a certain extent. but i cant have it right next to me when im eating dinner on the table.