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#2 | |
Moderator
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The riser needs to have carpet on top to help with absorbing & it needs foam underneath as well . Doing this will help it not sounding boomy & it will sound more natural ! |
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#3 | |
Senior Member
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#4 |
Blu-ray Prince
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here are a couple of things i don't understand. folks are stuffing their speakers and subs and raising them up on stands and such off of the floor, ok. why aren't these things being done or recommended by the makers of these products if they work so well? mind you, i'm not saying they don't work well either. i'm saying why don't the engineers who designed these things have it done at their level for the products if all of these things so dramatically increase the quality of the sound and effectiveness of their products? aren't they missing out on money that they could be charging for these "improvements" ? mind you i've not stuffed or raised any speaker or sub so i'm putting it out there for those who have or are thinking of doing it.
have at it people! |
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#5 |
Blu-ray Ninja
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For one, raising a subwoofer in of itself is not something any manufacturer does that I'm aware of. There could be many issues with mass producing risers. Stuffing a subwoofer has its risks too such as fire hazards or damaging a subwoofer driver if it gets caught in the voice coil or something. There are small risks that prevent manufacturers from adding these small tweaks that would be added headaches to the company. Also for the riser, most manufacturers focus their attention on aesthetics of subwoofers and the mainstream market who need subs with the WAF. Some manufacturers do include certain amounts of Poly-fill but generally all subwoofers and many speakers would benefit from some sort of extra isolation and stuffing. Many subwoofer manufacturers also focus on the bottom line which is using the least money to make a product with the biggest profit margin.
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#6 | |
Blu-ray Prince
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#7 |
Blu-ray Ninja
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For some Polk products fortunately, they include a small amount of fill. The fire-hazard is not really an issue if you get the fire-retardant kind. It is not likely that anything would get caught in the drivers or speakers either. That is just a possibility that some manufacturers could face if not properly executed.
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#8 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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#9 |
Senior Member
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i also made a riser for my hd-10 and i was impressed how much better it sound. it also packed more punch. i felt i was being robbed when i was wiatching transformers scene when ironhide flips, everyone was said it great scene for the sub. but as i was watching it i was not impressed. after i build the tower i was much happier. i almost regret buying the hd-10, the project cost maybe 30 at most. you can also check my gallery i took pics of the steps. hope this help.
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#10 |
Senior Member
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Here is a sub riser I built so my neighbors downstairs won't kill me
![]() ![]() Here is the side view of some of the materials I used. The bottom foam was from a package that was sent, and is that thick packing foam. That little piece of leaf is from the outside where I painted it with gloss black. ![]() |
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#11 | |
Power Member
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I can say this. I have a pair of Premier Acoustics PA-120s (12 in subs). All I did was put a pad of neoprene rubber one inch thick under each sub. I have ceramic tile floors. I did that to keep the speakers from vibrating everything in the house. It worked too and I gained a cleaner, tighter, punchier bass sound. I love it. I'm skeptical about raising them up higher like 6 to 8 inches and get my wife all upset too for little or no gain. That's just me. I'm not saying others aren't getting breathtaking increases in performance. I'm just skeptical or critical that it can happen in my HT room. |
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#12 | |
Blu-ray Baron
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#13 | ||||
Blu-ray Champion
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Many people report better bass response by raising their subwoofers. One of the most popular products for this purpose is the Auralex Isolation Risers Gramma & Great Gramma, Subdude, and SubdudeHD. According to Auralex, Gramma stands for Gig and Recording, Amp and Monitor, Modulation Attenuator. Gramma Specifications: 23" long x 15" wide x 2.75" high Weight Limit: 300lbs. Market Price: $50 ![]() Great Gramma Specifications: 30" long x 19" wide x 2.75" high Weight Limit: 300lbs. Market Price: $80 ![]() Subdude: 15” x 15” x 2 3/4” Market Price: $50 ![]() Subdude HD: 15" x 15" x 2.5" Market Price: $60 ![]() Where to Buy http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GRAMMA http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GreatGRAMMA/ http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDude http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDudeHD/ Reviews: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ma-4-2004.html http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAM...at-GRAMMA.html http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-GRAMMA...owViewpoints=1 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GRAMMA/reviews/ http://www.zzounds.com/productreview--AURGRAMMA How High a Riser? Theoretically, if your ceiling is 8ft high, you can go up to 2 feet. However, when you raise it that high, you should really fill the gap under the riser with dampening foam. Take a look at these SubTraps from ASC. 18” SubTrap (50 Hz) Standard, most Subwoofers: $469 22” SubTrap (30 Hz) Large Subwoofer: $586 http://www.asc-home-theater.com/subtrap.htm Quote:
Quote:
http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12...ap-6-2005.html http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...ic/index1.html Theoretical Foundation Behind Risers The sound waves interact with the room boundaries (walls, floor, and ceiling) and create standing waves or room modes. The standing waves are different between floor and ceiling, side walls, and end walls, unless any of these dimensions are the same (the worst kind of room is a perfect cube). There are three basic types of modes: axial, tangential, and oblique. Examples of these modes are shown in the following diagrams: Axial Modes are the strongest and the most important, and the easiest to compute. Tangential Modes are about half as loud, and Oblique Modes are about a quarter as loud. They tend to be the least important, but if an oblique room mode occurs near another mode, that frequency may still be a problem. If you look at the diagrams, you will notice that there are basically two types of axial modes: horizontal and vertical. Almost every person who owns a subwoofer discovers that room placement plays an important role. In reality, by moving the subwoofer around, you are dealing with the horizontal axial mode. Unfortunately, subwoofers do not understand horizontal or vertical. These classifications are in our heads. As far as subwoofers are concerned, waves are waves. We need to deal with vertical axial modes exactly the same way we dealt with horizontal axial mode, but how can we do that as Sir Isaac Newton and gravity work against us. There are two options: put the subwoofer on a riser or hang it from the ceiling and get shot by the wife in the process. ![]() ![]() Rule of Thumb:
Rule of 25: The low frequency sound waves generated by subwoofers interact with room boundaries and create standing waves (pressure zones). These ressure zones are spread out and not pinpoint-sized. For all practical purposes, the subwoofer should be located at least 25 percent away from the room boundaries to best avoid stimulating any of its first three harmonics. There is no location towards the middle of the room that suits a subwoofer position, as the pressure zones there are overlapping. Many people have done years of research at the National Research Council of Canada and at Harmon International under the guidance of Dr. Floyd Toole (currently, a Vice President at Harmon). The 25% Subwoofer Positioning: This solution is suggested by Todd Welti at Harmon International: Quote:
Last edited by Big Daddy; 10-11-2009 at 02:51 AM. |
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#14 | |||
Blu-ray Champion
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It is not true that manufacturers do not add polyfill to their subwoofers and speakers. Many high-end manufacturers do. I bought a 15" DBX sealed subwoofer in 1989-1990. It had a layer of polyfill inside the cabinet. In 1998, I bought two 12" Hsu cylindrical ported subwoofers. They were fully stuffed with polyfill. Even my relatively inexpensive 12" Acoustic Audio ported subwoofer had its interior covered with polyfill. Moreover, companies like Parts Express sell different types of cabinet damping material, including high-end polyfill.
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards...AT&srchCat=137 Generally speaking, adding polyfill requires large storage facility and is a relatively labor intensive activity. Manufacturers are too concerned about their bottom line and don't want to be bothered with a tweak that consumers can add with minimum hassle and expense. When I asked Elemental Designs to build a subwoofer box for my 15" Dayton Titanic driver, this is the respone I got from Brett Bell in one of his messages: Quote:
BENEFITS OF POLYFILL Polyfill can deepen bass, tone down any unwanted reverberation, improve the dynamic extension, and will give you tighter and more accurate bass. It also helps to give a flatter frequency response to the overall sound. Besides this, it also helps reduce the vibration of the box, which results in less distortion and tricks a subwoofer into thinking it is in a bigger box. Damping also increases subwoofer efficiency. It is a good idea to use sheet dampening material to cover the entire inner surface of the cabinet. A small amount of glue may help. The loose polyfill is good for filling the cabinet. The type of subwoofer (down-firing or front-firing) does not play a role. Polyfill can have several positive effects:
The following diagram from Basic Car Audio demonstrates the effect of polyfill on the frequency response of a subwoofer. ![]() Quote:
Port tuning is not very complicated. The builder decides what the tuning should be, based on the type of applications (HT, music, or car) that the subwoofer is made for. A subwoofer for car audio is tuned high 35Hz-50Hz because most car audio enthusiasts are SPL junkies. Music subwoofers are tuned in the 25Hz to 35Hz range, and HT subwoofers are tuned below 25Hz. The tuned frequency of the port, usually a length of PVC pipe, depends on the two port parameters of area and length for a given enclosure/woofer combination. By adding a port, the rear wave of the cone motion is used to reinforce the front wave. This typically results in a system with a higher efficiency (it plays louder with less power). The disadvantages of this design are lower power handling and poor response below the port tuning frequency. At frequencies above the port tuning frequency, cone excursion will be very well controlled, and will actually be lower than that of a sealed enclosure, but at frequencies below the port tuning, as there is no internal box pressure to control excursion, the driver can easily reach its excursion limit with very little power. This is not a big issue with tuning frequencies down in the 20-25Hz range, because most content do not go that low. However, if the tuning is in the 35-40Hz or higher range, you will have the potential for significant content to be below your tuning. Cone excursion below the tuning frequency in a ported enclosure is very, very high, and can easily cause damage to the driver if it is not controlled. At frequencies below the tuning frequency of the port, a woofer starts to de-couple. This means that the controlling function of the enclosure begins to disappear. The collapse is gradual rather than immediate, but at some point below the tuning of the port, the speaker behaves as if it were operating without an enclosure and suffers from potentially damaging over-excursion. This is why it is a good practice to use an subsonic filter when running a ported enclosure. Some subwoofer amplifiers come with a subsonic filter, which block these lowest frequencies. What happens if the box is too small? If the box is too small, the bass will be slightly boomy with strong mid-bass and less low bass. Typically, power-handling is improved if the box is not too small. You can compensate somewhat for a small box volume by adding polyfill to the box. The stuffing can make the box appear up to 40% larger to the driver and will lower the tuned frequency. A slightly lower tuning frequency will add a little more safety due to the driver not unloading below tuning frequency as soon. Polyfill provides this additional safety. What happens if the box is too large? Typically the low frequency extension of the system improves a little, at the expense of power handling. If the ported subwoofer is too large, there will be a response peak around the resonance frequency of the system that can easily be corrected with an equalizer. As was stated earlier, polyfill has these three main effects on a subwoofer box:
Pollyfill is a sound absorption dampening fiber that may deepen the sound and tone down any unwanted reverberation of any subwoofer. Contrary to all the nonsense that is repeated in most Internet forums, we do not have standing waves in a subwoofer box, particularly in HT applications. Assuming that the vast majority of subwoofers for home audio are crossed at 80Hz to 100Hz, you can imagine the stupidity of this claim. These are the approximate wavelengths of bass frequencies: 20Hz: 56.5ft 50Hz: 22.6ft 80Hz: 14.1ft 100Hz: 11.3ft For standing waves to occur, we need a subwoofer that is the size of a room. How many of you have a subwoofer that big? ![]() Polyfill affects both sealed and ported subwoofer boxes. As a general rule, polyfill has more benefit for small boxes and since most sealed boxes are smaller than ported boxes, it appears that sealed boxes are affected more. In car audio, most people play bass-heavy music at loud volumes and the subwoofers are tuned at a higher frequency for maximum SPL. They are more concerned about loudness. In home audio, most people care about the quality of audio for HT and music applications. Most HT subwoofers are tuned lower for better low frequency extension. This is from Ultimate Polyfill Subwoofer Enclosure Resource Quote:
It is a good idea to staple or glue a thin layer of polyfill to all the interior panels of the subwoofer box and add sufficient amount of loose polyfill to the box. Remember that if you put too much loose polyfill inside a ported subwoofer, it may lower the sound quality and the polyfill may blow out of the port. Although fiberglass can also be used, I do not recommend it as it can become a health hazard. Polyfill can also have a positive effect on regular speakers. Speakers are more subject to back standing waves as the drivers generate much higher frequencies (lower wavelengths). Last edited by Big Daddy; 10-11-2009 at 01:22 AM. |
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#16 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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Bookshelf speakers normally perform the best on speaker stands. Make sure their tweeters are at ear level. Last edited by Big Daddy; 10-11-2009 at 02:56 AM. |
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#17 |
Moderator
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most subs are already tuned to their manufacturers preferences, built to a way to accomodate what comes out with the best response, with of course relation to cost.
polyfill is considered a DIYers trick to further implement their findings, and, if done correctly, can further extend what already is, a perfect sub. this is also one reason HSU sold turbos to further extend the frequency level. a trick utilized by many, with great results as a general response. if done correctly, can yield what you might be looking for. isolating and raising your subwoofer are two different aspects, with isolation being an active response to the speakers performance, and raising it would be a more passive approach. i think i posted this a while back, but what you are trying to do is 1. removing the interaction between the subwoofer and the room with the isolator... and 2. maximizing the response from the subwoofer, with addressing the axial mode of the room. in essence you are assisting it to perform better, by giving it leverage. (no pun intended) its like clay barring your car. at times, most people dont really know what they do, nor do they care as to what effects it has on a car. yet in the long run, most people especially detail enthusiast, know that it helps keeping the cars depth and detail when applied at least twice a year. you dont HAVE to do it, but after seeing results, the aftermath of a good clay bar, wash, wax - you see the finished product. ![]() |
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#18 |
Power Member
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I got mine from a local garden supply store. They're 23" x 18" x 1" pads that are normally used to kneel on if you're working on rocky soil or hard surfaces around the house and cost $12.99 ea. Even Home Depot's garden center has rubber pads but they're a bit smaller and thinner around 18" x 12" x 3/4 " thick for about $5 each.
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#19 | |
Blu-ray Baron
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#20 | |
Power Member
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