Audio and Video Coding Standard of China

[lvqirain97]

hi,guys!
I have question about the AVS.
How do you think about the AVS standard? will AVS be part of the next generation DVD standard?

Thx.

[Ender]

Huh?

[dialog_gvf]

AVS?

AVC, one of the MPEG-4 profiles is already in both HD DVD and Blu-ray, as well as being supported for streaming by the PS/3.

Is that what you meant?

Gary

[lvqirain97]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

AVS?

AVC, one of the MPEG-4 profiles is already in both HD DVD and Blu-ray, as well as being supported for streaming by the PS/3.

Is that what you meant?

Gary

no. maybe here people seldom heard of it. It is made by some Chinese company. Now in China, for the High definition standard, AVS has important role. If HD or BD want to push their players in Chinese market, they have to consider about it.

[Ender]

That sounds like HD-VMD, we had a thread about it a few days ago. It is insignificant garbage that will never see mass adoption anywhere. Sooner or later bootleggers will start pressing BDs just like they did with DVD, and that will be the Chinese standard.

[Anthony P]

did a search http://www.avs.org.cn/en/

I don't see it being added. You don't want to screw around with formats on a continuous basis because then they are not formats. You can have multiple audio CODECs because you can have multiple audio tracks of different quality. But adding a video CODEC is harder, no one will put two copies of the same video, and if you only use AVS, then what happens with all the old players that don't support it? you will need to differentiate the movies "BD with AVS won't play on many players"

China might be pushing cheaper Chinese tech and they might hope that they will become the next formats so that the IP royalties stay in China, but in the end people will buy what is out there, and if it is BD in the rest of the world there is a good chance it will be in China as well.

[lvqirain97]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

did a search http://www.avs.org.cn/en/

I don't see it being added. You don't want to screw around with formats on a continuous basis because then they are not formats. You can have multiple audio CODECs because you can have multiple audio tracks of different quality. But adding a video CODEC is harder, no one will put two copies of the same video, and if you only use AVS, then what happens with all the old players that don't support it? you will need to differentiate the movies "BD with AVS won't play on many players"

China might be pushing cheaper Chinese tech and they might hope that they will become the next formats so that the IP royalties stay in China, but in the end people will buy what is out there, and if it is BD in the rest of the world there is a good chance it will be in China as well.

Thank you for your anlysis.

And do you think that the Chinese market is important for BD or not? As I know, now BD and HD also has a war in China, if BD lost the war in China, what would that effect the competition between BD and HD in the whole world? As I know, BD just is seld better in Japan and US than HD, in Europ the situation may be opposite.

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by lvqirain97

And do you think that the Chinese market is important for BD or not?

Every market is important. However, the reason for AVS has got nothing to do with the current HD format war. It's all about the Chinese not wanting to pay royalties for IP properties involved in DVD and BD. That's why they are developing similar technologies.

But unlike other technologies, the tech built in DVD and BD supports movie distribution and not the other way around. So even if AVS works in China, it won't get supported outside because studios would not want to publish there unless their properties are protected. The Chinese consumers may also not support AVS because it means movies they want to watch won't be in that format.


fuad

[MrBogey]

*sigh* Central planning...

[Ender]

I would guess that China is not considered to be a very important market due to the prevalence of pirated goods there. I could be wrong though, I'm no studio exec.

[Anthony P]

Before I answer your questions let me say first that I don't have anything to do with BD and that I don't work for electronic companies, studios or tech companies in AV related stuff. So take what I say for what it is, a guy that loves MOvies and loves talking about the technology behind it that wants the best that is possible. Also I don't know much about China and I am guessing since you brought up AVS you must know better then me on some of the stuff concerning the Chinese and the gouvernment.

And do you think that the Chinese market is important for BD or not?

My guess is all the markets are important. China is a large country with a population over 1B. Even though I am sure a large part of the population is too poor, the rest of it is too large for anyone to overlook.

I think the questions we need to ask are

1) Would the Chinese government outlaw BD if they don't include AVS?
I think the government has done some restrictive stuff to protect their population and to try and force, but I doubt they would go that far.

2) Would Chinese people buy BD if it does not have AVS?
People are people and if they can afford it, my guess most don't care if the tech is home grown or not.

3) can BD be cheap enough without AVS?
even if AVS was added to the specs as optional the players would need to support the other three video CODECs as well so the processing power (assuming AVS needs less processing) is the same, the manufacturer will also need to pay the royalties for AVC, VC-1 and MPEG. So I don't see any savings on the player, it might bump up the price a bit if anything. As for movies, if all the players support the other CODECS what studio will use AVS that does not work on all BD player?

Like I said before, I just can't see a benefit for them to add AVS now, if it was a couple of years ago when they were deciding on CODECs, it would be a different story.

As I know, now BD and HD also has a war in China, if BD lost the war in China, what would that effect the competition between BD and HD in the whole world?

Hard to say, I see it a bit like VCD and DVD, DVD is the king and is global, in the US and Canada there is no VCD, but in some countries VCD is doing well. So VCD losing in NA was not enough to kill it in other countries, But DVD doing well in enough countries was enough to make sure it is the main format everywhere. I don't have any stats for China, but for the rest of the world BD is doing better (US, Canada, Japan, Europe, Australia -places where I saw statistics). I don’t see why it should be different in China.

Also, this might not be faire, but US movies are extremely important, so for any format to win they need the US studios support. I know this is true for Canada, France, Greece and UK and I am guessing it is just as true for China. So I think the direction the US studios go will be the one that wins the world

As I know, BD just is seld better in Japan and US than HD, in Europ the situation may be opposite.

no, the situation is the same. HD DVD had a small lead back at the beginning of the year, but almost as soon as the PS3 reached Europe HD DVD lost that lead
http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/ne...s-boosts.phtml

the problem for HD DVD is that it is hard to get someone to buy your product when there is uncertainty, so people are not spending their money on HD DVD (or BD) players, that is why the PS3 was a good idea, many people that bought it for gaming saw and use it for BD movies, many people felt safer to buy it because even if BD does not win they have a cool gaming machine. On the other hand what will someone do with their HD DVD player if HD DVD does not stick around? Watch DVD? They have a DVD player and if BD wins and they want HD movies they will buy a BD player and it can play their DVDs so why would they need an other DVD player like the Toshiba HD DVD player.

[Anthony P]

But unlike other technologies, the tech built in DVD and BD supports movie distribution and not the other way around. So even if AVS works in China, it won't get supported outside because studios would not want to publish there unless their properties are protected. The Chinese consumers may also not support AVS because it means movies they want to watch won't be in that format.

Fuad, AVS is not a format but an Audio/Video CODEC. He is asking if we think the BDA would add it to the BD specs.

[Anthony P]

I would guess that China is not considered to be a very important market due to the prevalence of pirated goods there. I could be wrong though, I'm no studio exec.

I would guess the opposite.
1) It is an extremely large market
2) if they did not care then all those articles about studio X bringing down the prices to try and get back the market or studio Y working with the government to stop ring A would not be there
3) getting on the good graces of the government is the best way to get them to help you go after your enemies.

[lvqirain97]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I would guess the opposite.
1) It is an extremely large market
2) if they did not care then all those articles about studio X bringing down the prices to try and get back the market or studio Y working with the government to stop ring A would not be there
3) getting on the good graces of the government is the best way to get them to help you go after your enemies.

I agree with you. I think you have a very good comprehension to China. While although there are a lot of people in China very poor, there are also many people very rich there. The movie "Transformer" in China seld over 100million RMBs tickets only in one week. So I never doubt the market of China, especially the ecnomy of China grows very fast.

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Fuad, AVS is not a format but an Audio/Video CODEC. He is asking if we think the BDA would add it to the BD specs.

Ah. Thanks Anthony.

No, I don't think the BDA would add AVS. Not like I got links to the BDA or anything.


fuad

[kjack]

There are many types of video distribution solutions in China adopting AVS codec. I just happened to talk to a guy from a major studio today that has been talking to people in China about them supporting AVS codec.

I would hazard a guess and say that the BDA would add AVS audio and video codecs as an option if seriously asked and it would seriously help BD be adopted in China.

Actually, I very seriously suggest they start working on it tomorrow if they are serious about China market. Most of the SoC decoder suppliers are busily adding support for AVS codec for a reason.

But as I pointed out to the studio person, people in China want players that will play "normal" discs also. So using AVS codec to lower royalty costs has the opposite effect.

Supporting AVS would be very useful for recording "broadcast" content and being able to play it on all players.

[Anthony P]

I would hazard a guess and say that the BDA would add AVS audio and video codecs as an option if seriously asked and it would seriously help BD be adopted in China

Keith, if it is added do you think the current players could be FW upgraded to use it?

I think the gouvernment wants to push it because it wants to move China from a slave labour country tomore of an IP/tech devolopment (i.e. muscle to mind) economy.

PS do you see it, like adding it to all, or like HD DVD creating a Chinese sub format like HD DVD did?

[WickyWoo]

China is a very important part of the market, since 1 in 5 people are Chinese

However

1- China is a poor market, and affording HDTV and BR is impossible for a lot of them
2- China is the Bootiest Place on Earth. 96% of media sold is a boot.

1) Would the Chinese government outlaw BD if they don't include AVS?

No just like they didn't outlaw DVD when SVCD got its butt kicked

2) Would Chinese people buy BD if it does not have AVS?

I'm pretty sure the ones that care about such things already have Blu-Ray players and import their discs.

3) can BD be cheap enough without AVS?

It's the hardware cost. That's why they were pushing a 720p multiple DVD-9 red laser system (like SVCD worked).

Keith, if it is added do you think the current players could be FW upgraded to use it?

As long as there is space in the memory for it, there's no reason why it couldn't be, but seriously. I wouldn't worry about it. Like SVCD it's going to crash and burn, because the Chinese only bootleg the best, and by the time the hardware is affordable to the average joe, they'll have operations up and running in that area