Stopping dogs from fighting?

[mikejet]

So my parents have a 2 1/2 year old Akita that they got from my uncle and recently he's been starting fights with the bigger German Shepherd that my parents have. The Shepherd is about 2 years old but he's a big baby.

It started when they couldn't be fed together because they would start to growl at each other and then eventually go for each other.

Then when we went to my parents house yesterday they started fighting because one wanted more attention over the other. The Apollo(the Akita) went for Marcus(the Shepherd) and really got at his ear making it bleed and broke his collar off.

They've been together for about two months already and this just recently started.

I'm thinking that my parents should get Apollo neutered but the thing is he's a show dog and is registered with the AKC so I don't think that's gonna happen.

Any ideas on how to control them?

[MaCruz]

LeAnn will post. She's a dog expert. I promise you.

[LeAnn]

Hmmm.... it would seem that you have two alpha dogs. Ultimately you will have to let one win. Either that or show them that you are Alpha...

It may take a while, but generally I have seen (I have always had german shepherds) that once you let that hierarchy develop, your problems should end. But I can understand your concern over the torn ear.

I think you should worry though if it looks like one is in danger of being seriously injured. My previous shepherds have fought a lot with the other dogs, even the neighbors dogs, but once everyone gets their territory straightened out, everything was ok.

Generally though you should not feed them together because they will naturally defend their territory. It would be best if they were on complete opposite sides of the room. You should also pick up the bowls as soon as they are done.

They can not have community toys. You may try small periods of simultaneous play, but end the play when they start to compete for your attentions.

You could also try shock collars... but I don't really like that form of discipline...
I suppose I could ask my dad if no one has a real solution (he trained the shepherds during the Vietnam war)

[LeAnn]

Also, is what I understand correct, that the Akita came into the family as an adult?

I am going to ask if you can watch the Akita's body language next time. When he growls before he goes for the shepherd is the scruff of his neck standing up and the tail still or is the tail wagging?

Also, is the shepherd clutching his tail between his legs or is he responding in a similar way?


Are there any whining or is it just growling before he attacks. These would all help in understand if the Akita is feeling defensive or is just being aggressive.

The 2 months would give the Akita long enough to be sure of his place in the pack, so he would feel more comfortable trying to assert dominance.

[mikejet]

My parents are feeding them separately now. When we went to visit them yesterday Apollo had small marks on his face that were fresh so Marcus went for the eyes but Apollo only goes for the ear and side of the neck never the throat.

I'm scared to bring my dog over to visit because he's very territorial.

Would the neutering help?

[mikejet]

From what my dad told me the Shepherd initiated everything first. They both growl at each other before fighting and their tails don't wag. I was there for one fight and was there helping my dad prevent the other fight. The Shepherds tail is not between his legs.

[LeAnn]

I do not think the neutering would help because both already have established personalities...

Dont worry about the little marks. I have had to patch up torn noses and eyebrows a lot. Get some peroxide, rubbing alcohol and something like neosporin and those will heal up just fine. Naturally make sure nothing gets in their eyes.

But if they are not going for the throat it sounds like this is face to face disagreement. Kind of like two guys nose to nose yelling at one another. Really you must consider that if they REALLY wanted to they could shred each other in very short time, and completely destroy your home.

I would not bring another dog into the picture at this time because the situation is too delicate.

Apollo sounds like a good German Shepherd that has accepted Marcus, and wants to get along. But neither of them wants to step down yet.

I am going to assume that the one who is starting the fight is being properly disciplined by the alpha in your family?

This may sound silly, but the Akita (or the shepherd) will have one member in the family that it obeys best. This person would be the preferred person to discipline him. When he is bad, they may consider grabbing him by the scruff of his neck, giving him a small shake and sternly telling him no. If he responds to spankings, this is also fine, but never ever hit him in the face. You should think like a dog really. If you were an alpha and a dog acted out what do you do?

You grab him by the scruff, you shake him and make him lay down into submission.

Be careful about fighting dogs though. Never NEVER never get in between them. It will be very tempting, but you can get hurt much worse than they can.

[mikejet]

Yeah we don't get in between them when they were fighting my dad just used the hose on them(they have this ridiculous fear of it for some reason) and that stops them.

My dad is the alpha and both obey him.

One issue could be that since they got the Akita most guests tend to pay more attention to him since he is the newer dog and it could just be jealously.

[LeAnn]

Originally Posted by mikejet

From what my dad told me the Shepherd initiated everything first. They both growl at each other before fighting and their tails don't wag. I was there for one fight and was there helping my dad prevent the other fight. The Shepherds tail is not between his legs.

This is good, because if your shepherd had his tail between his legs he was being defensive.

What about the Akita? It is being defensive?

If your shepherd is initiating things, he is NOT a big baby. The same advice applies to the shepherd as dealing with the Akita.

You are not going to be able to discipline one and not the other.

I would suggest really good supervision. If your dad is the alpha in your house, he should be able to keep the two from getting into too much of a skirmish as you already indicated. In my experience, shepherds are slow to anger and quick to respond to commands.

I had a VERY aggressive German Shepherd, killed pretty much anything that came into the yard. Macruz can tell you about her. She and I were the best hunting partners ever. BUT when she got of age, she decided she wanted to be the alpha to the other dog. We had an older German Shepherd who naturally had been the alpha dog for years. BUT after repeatedly jumping at him, biting him, she broke his ear, cut up his nose, punctured all sorts of places on his face. He eventually caved in and she became alpha and they stopped fighting.

We would pull them apart, reprimand them both but as soon as we turned our backs they were at it again.

I guess you just have to recognize that they are fighting, but they are not trying to kill one another.

I am sure others will have different advice for you, but I would let them have at it.

You guys are doing right by not feeding them together, dont let them share a water bowl or anything, not toys, not a bed.
You are parting them when it gets too serious. So all in all it seems like you are doing ok.

Watch, they will become best buds before you know it.

But no, I dont think neuturing will work.

[MaCruz]

Originally Posted by LeAnn

I had a VERY aggressive German Shepherd, killed pretty much anything that came into the yard. Macruz can tell you about her. She and I were the best hunting partners ever. BUT when she got of age, she decided she wanted to be the alpha to the other dog. We had an older German Shepherd who naturally had been the alpha dog for years. BUT after repeatedly jumping at him, biting him, she broke his ear, cut up his nose, punctured all sorts of places on his face. He eventually caved in and she because alpha and they stopped fighting.

We would pull them apart, reprimand them both but as soon as we turned our backs they were at it again.

^ Tu-Ka did that to Wolfe???

[Steve]

Excellent advice from start to finish LeAnn.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by mikejet

They've been together for about two months already and this just recently started.

I think this is the key. They were relatively comfortable until it became clear that no one was in charge.

It is impossible to control large, aggressive dogs without firmly establishing that humans are the pack leaders. Dogs will understand this, but many humans are uncomfortable with it. People don't like living within a clearly defined heirarchy, in their homes.

But it's unavoidable. Either the humans do it, or the animals will do it, and their instincts aren't clear enough to do it without damage.

This will require a period of zero tolerance for aggressive behavior. You can't "ease into it". It has to be done immediately and constantly.

1. Humans control food. All animals eat together. Humans control the supply. Meal time should be preceded by a period of calm; no one eats until everyone sits, and recognizes the pack leader (that's the human) is supplying the food. Food is not a right; it's a ritual, with a beginning, middle, and end.

A. Quiet time while the dogs observe the humans with the food, with eye contact with all animals.

B. Bowls placed on the floor, the animals wait for the signal to eat. Any "lunging for the bowl" - either dog, either bowl - and both bowls come up off the floor. Repeat step A.

C. Permission to eat is given, only after more eye contact.

D. Dogs eat. Any hesitation for growling or eyeing another's bowl is halted immediately by demanding eye contact with the human. This reminds them who made the kill, and owns the food.

E. Bowls are removed immediately upon completion of the meal.

Don't limit meals to one per day. Do this at least twice a day, limit portions, and provide snacks (using the same ritual) up to their normal daily food allowance.

2. Snacks - this is huge.

A. Snacks or treats should be given, not as a reward, but as a daily bonus. No one does "tricks" for snacks. Snacks are small kills, immediately shared with the pack, with respect for all concerned.

B. Have at least two snacks per animal (break the snack in half, or whatever).

C. Each dog must sit. Say it aloud, even if they're already sitting: "You must SIT!" in a commanding tone. Give a generic "Good Dog" to both dogs, once they sit.

D. Say the name of the dog, as they receive their snack. Any lunging, jumping, growling, and snack is immediately on hold. Dogs get the message, fast - they hear their name, they get the snack, that's their snack.

E. Everyone gets equal shares. Same number of snacks for everyone.

F. Snack time is up, show your hands that snacks are gone. The ritual is complete.

I have four large dogs (two belong to my oldest son, but he's on active duty and won't get them back until later this year.) Two Labradors, a black German Shepherd, and a Weimaraner. All are of good temperement, but can get testy, and they are very heirachichal. The German Shepherd is an aggressive puppy still, who we rescued from a home where he had been abused. He was very mean when we got him, purely a defensive tactic.

We follow these rules all day long. All are good with each other, and with other dogs. But it's work, and while each is very much loved, we remember that they are dogs. They are very different individuals, but they are dogs.

So remember: Treat each equally. If one suffers, the pack suffers. If the pack profits, the individual profits.

One other tactic, which must be done all day, but is hugely effective: Every time the dog passes by, say hello. Greet them by name, even if you're walking past each other, even if you did it only a minute before. This gives them status; they've been recognized; we don't have tails to wag or other body language, but dogs need status, and it's tied to the pack leaders. Do it matter-of-fact style, don't make a big deal out of it. This works like a charm, they won't need all the big displays to get attention.

This may be difficult for people who haven't done it before. It's really generating a team, out of a group of individuals. Akitas are good dogs, but aggessive; they demand respect, and rarely get it, since the usual reaction to them is fear. This confuses a good dog. What they want is recognition, and warm regard.

This process to normalize things will take at least a week, and maybe up to a month. Consult a trainer if it becomes too difficult. And hug these dogs as often as possible, distract them to you if they beef with each other, and enjoy these amazing animals.

Good luck!

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by LeAnn

I am sure others will have different advice for you, but I would let them have at it.

Not a good idea with dogs...it gives them the idea that no one is in control. Even worse, serious injury can be the result.

If it's a minor "I'm in charge" snap, damage will be limited, but that's not the case with Akitas and Shepherds. They're hard-wired for, "I'm going to settle this once and for all," and it can result with a major injury - eyes lost, major leg ligaments torn, even broken bones.

But the worst loss: Respect for pack leaders, who will be seen as ineffective and uninvolved. This is a terribly lonely and confusing situation for a dog.

Get angry at BOTH dogs, equally. It sounds unfair, but it isn't. These are not humans; these are dogs.

My German Shepherd is an aggressive five month old, clearly an Alpha in the making. He plays rough; I limit this, quickly. The larger mature dogs could kill him, easily.

When play gets too rough, I bark ("Hey!" is a bark), or even growl like a dog. Whoever is engaged, they both stop, and look at me. I establish alternate eye contact with each dog, and say nothing for at least ten seconds. Then I explain, in English, what I disapprove of, in a low voice. Essentially, I'm growling.

I maintain eye contact until they both look down, then call them to me, crouch down, and touching them, explain in a serious but kind voice that I won't play that crap. Then I send them off to play.

They know that fighting is disapproved of. If you let them fight, they think it's approved of, or to repeat - that they live in anarchy.

Anarchy is hell for dogs. Don't put them through that. Michael Vick did that, and I hope he liked prison, which is much the same.

[MaCruz]

Blu-Dog,

I may not know dogs, but it does sound great advice for young dogs, but these are 2 adult dogs trained by 2 different people (mikejet's parents). They also seemed to be more squabbling than really fighting as Mikejet indicated that there has been no serious damage.

[Sagacious Koreo]

Call Cesar Milan.