blu-ray better than hd dvd, but...

[vick vega]

It is true that blu-ray is better than hd dvd, and I plan on buying a blu-ray player, but from my investigating it looks like the holographic versatile, hvd, has a much larger storage capacity.... terabytes not gigabytes possibly someday enabling a holographic video to be recorded. The smaller the diameter of the ray the more info can be stored. Hvd uses an ultraviolet light which is way smaller than the blu-ray.
http://www.physorg.com/news785.html

[JTK]

Originally Posted by vick vega

It is true that blu-ray is better than hd dvd, and I plan on buying a blu-ray player, but from my investigating it looks like the holographic versatile, hvd, has a much larger storage capacity.... terabytes not gigabytes possibly someday enabling a holographic video to be recorded. The smaller the diameter of the ray the more info can be stored. Hvd uses an ultraviolet light which is way smaller than the blu-ray.

Not much past rumors about HVD out there:


Sure, as long as you're willing to spend over $120 for a movie, and $15K for the drive.

HVD is just a theoretical data format at this point. It won't be a movie format until there's a spec for codecs, interactivity, DRM, etcetera. It's like saying DVD-ROM is a better consumer video format than VCD.

Honestly, I'll believe it when I actually see it. To me, it's barely vaporware as is.

The spec of BD is designed to have up to 8 layers and 200g so it WILL happen and is much more future proof than HDDVD.

As it stands HDDVD barley has spec to keep up with the sets out there now. HD-DVD, while nice, is far more shortsighted and less future proof than BD, by far.

That's why BD comes out of the gate with 80 percent studio support and every CE company of note backing it except for Microsoft, Toshiba, RCA/Thompson, and a handful of other strays. You have plenty of heated rivals somehow holding hands and agreeing on BR.

HVD talk has been around for around 5 YEARS and is still nothing more than TALK...not even a prototype exists.

It's hocus pocus.


In short Blu-Ray is about as future proof as a technology can be. HDDVD is for today and today only. Its best feature is backward compatability for average joe, but guess what?

AJ is years away from even being a factor.

Or more to the point:
The vast majority of the Average Joes don't even own HDTV's yet, PERIOD.

[no_wei]

true, but there are a few other factors to consider.

From my initial research, HVD is still very much in its early stages of life, whereas HD DVD is already on the market and Blu-ray isn't far behind. (True, you should soon be able to buy $120 200GB HVD blanks for use in a $15000 recorder, but...)

I think the real strength of both HD DVD and Blu-ray is not only the standard they each represent individually but also the fact that they work in conjunction with the HDTV standard.

So, let's say you've got a 3.9TB HVD disc. What digital video are you going to put on it to realize any kind of true quality potential? Maybe a digital master copy of a film like The Incredibles, but even then I'd be willing to bet you're not close to taxing the HVD disc (I'll admit I don't have any specific info on the original specs for The Incredibles, but if anyone has any info I'd love to see it). Furthermore, let's say you do have that disc with that film, what are you going to watch it on? If you own your own theatre replete with $150000 projector, you should be set, but in terms of watching something at home, I don't see any real benefit in the near future (read: five or even ten years, as I doubt people [read: the general public] will want to invest in completely new display technologies that quickly).

That being said, if they do become commercially viable, I'll have an HVD drive on my pc, as next time I upgrade my harddrives I'll be moving into the terrabyte range anyway. And, I could also see it becoming a format used for the expressed purpose of storing a lot of high definition video (19 200GB Blu-ray discs on one HVD), I don't know if there's a huge market for that kind of a standalone home theatre component, but i think it could sell if the price was right.

HVD is definitely something to watch, but I don't know if it's got a future as a home video standard.

/no

[Shadowself]

I agree that HVD will not be a home theatre standard (at least for the general public) for at least 10 years or more -- if ever.

HVD is expected to ship 300 GB disks and players/recorders before the end of this year. Their roadmap projects 1.6 TB disks no later than the end of 2010.

I see no use for 300 GB disk (let alone 1.6 TB) disks for home theatre purposes before 2015 at the earliest.

Now... for digital theatre it's a different story.

A 2 hour movie in raw, uncompressed 4K format can exceed 7 TB. Even compressed at H.264 this is still about 100 GB and to get the best quality presentation a lower compression rate might be desired.

Thus at highest compression the current roadmap for Blu-ray disks still works even for 4K cinema format. However, for the best quality it may take something larger than the current Blu-ray roadmap will accomodate.

All that said....
I worked in the lab many years ago with holographic data storage systems. It was pure research back then (over 25 years ago). It worked, but poorly and reproducibility was sometimes questionable. Holographic data storage has come a long way since then, but it still has a very long way to go.

Comparing holographic data storage to CD/DVD/HDDVD/Blu-ray historically... I'd have to say that holographic storage is barely getting into the CD part of the timeline. It probably has at least 20 more years before it becomes as standard and ubiquitous as CDs and DVDs are now.


As an aside...
Sometimes very high density formats just don't make it.

Back in the mid 80s there was a proof of consept system built which used a system with open reel optical tape. The tapes were the same physical size as the 1/2 inch open reel magnetic tapes used ubiquitously in the 60s, 70s, 80s and even early 90s. However, the optical tapes would store over 1 TB of data -- on a single tape. This was an unbelievable density back then. Yet, there were no takers for the technology. Other than a few prototypes built, it never went anywhere.

Current magnetic tape technologies are stuck at 1/2 TB (uncompressed) on a single cartridge -- and they still sell. This is compared to a single tape with twice that capacity being possible over 20 years ago.

Sometimes better technology just does not sell.

It will be interesting to see what comes after Blu-ray. I just don't expect to see that transition until 2015 at the earliest.

[JTK]

When/if I ever see HVD, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

[zombie]

By the time Blu-ray's stage in home video is over I doubt whatever replaces it will be something we've heard of in 2006. Many in the industry think that Blu-ray and HD DVD may be the very last physical home video formats with many pointing to VOD and downloading.

[no_wei]

I think there's a great technical argument to be made for doing away with physical media.

However, I think the biggest hurdle that has to be overcome is the idea of buying nothing. I realize it's not nothing, but there's still something to be said for a tangible product.

Although, if and when the move to a non-physical distribution system comes in (and it's probably more a matter of when), it occurs to me that me and my various downloading activities could appear far more criminal than they already do.

/no

[zombie]

Originally Posted by no_wei

However, I think the biggest hurdle that has to be overcome is the idea of buying nothing. I realize it's not nothing, but there's still something to be said for a tangible product.

That's just it, I like to actual be able to hold my purchase in my hand and look at it on my shelf. To be downloads feel cheap, like I'm being ripped off. I hope physical media will be with us for a very long time but I'm doubtful I'll get my wish.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by nyg

That's just it, I like to actual be able to hold my purchase in my hand and look at it on my shelf. To be downloads feel cheap, like I'm being ripped off. I hope physical media will be with us for a very long time but I'm doubtful I'll get my wish.

Agreed 100 percent. I'll resist the Internet and download trend to the bitter end.

[georgir]

JTK, holographic storage isn't just theoretical - both Optware (HVD makers) and Inphase have had prototypes for a while now, and both are expected to come with a commercial product by the year's end.

No_wei, don't come with the argument that we don't need the high capacity, that's just lame. The same can be said of BD above 2 layers. Sure it's true in regards to movies and such right now, but for PCs we'll aways need more and more. Companies need huge capacities for backup and archiving, server data stores and libraries, etc.
HVD and the likes are obviously for a different market segment than BluRay, so comparing them or suggesting about a possible competition between them in the mass-market segment is nonsense. There might be a competition in that huge-storage segment though - for example Hitachi/Maxell is currently developing a device with 300GB capacity using hundreds of thin discs based on existing red-laser DVD tech for the same market, which will be a cheap competition of HVD or Inphase solutions and matches their expected initial capacities. Once blue laser tech is advanced enough, they can increase capacities five times by just switching the DVD discs to BD discs.
We obviously can go just fine without holographic tech, so still we don't _need_ it per se. That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop it. Even if its not in out immediate future, one day we'll use holographic media at home and the big iron guys will be using devices like Maxell's new prototype but with holographic discs inside to give petabytes of capacity per cartridge.

Vick vega, HVD doesn't use ultraviolet light or anything like that.
All holographic storage prototypes I've read so far used red lasers to keep costs down. According to wikipedia, HVD will use a green laser (532nm) for the read/write process, which is still much closer to the red lasers (650nm) in wavelength than to the blue-violet lasers (400nm) used in BD/HDDVD. (edit: umm, ok. dunno what went wrong in my math - obviously its in between, not much closer to either side.) Sure the smaller the wavelength the higher the recording density, but also the finer and more advanced (and expencive) technology would be needed. So it'd be a while before it gets to the ultraviolet range

Now about you opponents of download-only purchases - nothing stops you from burning your files to a disc and printing out the official cover, manual, box and disc art, etc. Even with some modifications, like your name on it or even some entirely alternative (fanmade or also official) art.

[thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by georgir

Now about you opponents of download-only purchases - nothing stops you from burning your files to a disc and printing out the official cover, manual, box and disc art, etc. Even with some modifications, like your name on it or even some entirely alternative (fanmade or also official) art.

I'm not sure about that mate.
A download can be seen like a normal TV movie broadcast. Recording it can be illegal, since you only pay to view it once.
By the way, it'll be encrypted anyway to make sure you don't copy it to a disc.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by thunderhawk

I'm not sure about that mate.
A download can be seen like a normal TV movie broadcast. Recording it can be illegal, since you only pay to view it once.
By the way, it'll be encrypted anyway to make sure you don't copy it to a disc.

I believe he was referring to downloads where you purchase the right to own a copy such as Apple's (the computer company's not the Beatle's company) iTunes. With services like that you get to make copies for your own use since you already have the right to own a copy.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by georgir

JTK, holographic storage isn't just theoretical - both Optware (HVD makers) and Inphase have had prototypes for a while now, and both are expected to come with a commercial product by the year's end.

Link? Source? The last time I checked there weren't even any prototypes.

It's barely past hocus pocus right now. I guarantee you there will not be a commercial product by the end of this year...or anytime in the forseeable future, for that matter.

If it ever does come out, it's going to appallingly expensive and out of reach even for many early adopter types.

It's just simply a non-factor for many years to come.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by JTK

Link? Source? The last time I checked there weren't even any prototypes.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/11/14/in...airscommercial

and

http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/2560

and

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...ndustryid=1030

While I agree that holographic storage is *not* ready for prime time and won't be ready for the average consumer for at least 5 more years (and maybe at least 10) ... it is already happening. Prototype drives exist; prototype disks exist. It is coming. The only question is what markets will it fit into. Long term storage of vast amounts of data for sure (with some current roadmaps pointing to almost 4 TB per 12 mm disk), but any others is open to wild speculation.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by Shadowself

http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/11/14/in...airscommercial

and

http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/2560

and

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...ndustryid=1030

While I agree that holographic storage is *not* ready for prime time and won't be ready for the average consumer for at least 5 more years (and maybe at least 10) ... it is already happening. Prototype drives exist; prototype disks exist. It is coming. The only question is what markets will it fit into. Long term storage of vast amounts of data for sure (with some current roadmaps pointing to almost 4 TB per 12 mm disk), but any others is open to wild speculation.

Very intruiging!

[vick vega]

http://www.physorg.com/news785.html

[thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by vick vega

http://www.physorg.com/news785.html

Yeah. As you can see, it's an article dating from 2004. Since then, it has been around here aswell. I did some research half a year ago on http://colossalstorage.net/ and I think it's from there vick vega has the information of HVD using an ultraviolet laser. But please know, the technology explained on this website, is not the HVD from Optware!

It employs a technique known as collinear holography, whereby two lasers, one red and one blue-green, are collimated in a single beam. The blue-green laser reads data encoded as laser interference fringes from a holographic layer near the top of the disc while the red laser is used as the reference beam and to read servo information from a regular CD-style aluminium layer near the bottom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

Please know, these technologies aren't the same. Don't think HVD appearing on the market with a 10 TB disc as described by Colossal Storage Corp.

Please know, they patented the technology (and can be licensed and sold, as stated on the website), why hasn't a company bought the technology yet? Why haven't they got a prototype yet?
I think the technical difficulties will be too hard today, or not commercial or... Even then, there is a market for it. Companies like Google and universities with huge ammounts of data may be interested in this kind of mass storage capacity... And yet, nobody has put this into reality. It's a nice technology and still...
Just took a quick look at the website again, and I saw they updated the website, with more HVD presence and other information.