8-bit vs 10-bit pannels

[MrRoy]

Currently I have a Sony KDL-40V3000. It boasts a 10-bit processor and a 10-bit panel. The V4100 and V5100 (I think) series has an 8-bit panel. Does anyone know if the human eye can really detect the dif between an 8-bit and a 10-bit panel?

[SlmShdy1]

I'm going to say yes. I have the V2500 and it has a 8-bit display. Color banding can be very noticeable when watching certain movies. For example, I was watching Dark City the other day and there was heavy banding in the opening scene. With a 10-bit display, color banding should be almost non-existent as long as the source isn't the culprit.

[DarkDune]

Originally Posted by SlmShdy1

I'm going to say yes. I have the V2500 and it has a 8-bit display. Color banding can be very noticeable when watching certain movies. For example, I was watching Dark City the other day and there was heavy banding in the opening scene. With a 10-bit display, color banding should be almost non-existent as long as the source isn't the culprit.

This is true. The only way to leverage 10-bit display capability these days is to have a Blu player or A/V Receiver that incoporates HDMI Video Processing Technology like the Marvell Qdeo. The PDF link below describes how Qdeo Technology leverages the 10-bit display capability of our KDL-40XBR4:

From the Qdeo Extended Technology Brief PDF:

"Bit Resolution Expansion dynamically expands 8-bit video to use the full dynamic range offered by 10 and 12 bit displays, eliminating contours while preserving detail. This process which we refer to as Qdeo True Color Processing (QTC) produces a perceived higher dynamic range. Figures 10 and 11 show the results before and after application of QTC.

Figure 10: Gray scale ramp image BEFORE Qdeo True Color processing. The top portion of the image
shows a smooth ramp that steps from black to white with steps of one lsb, and produces a per-
ception of banding. The bottom portion of the image shows steps of 16 that represent real edges.



Figure 11: Gray scale ramp image AFTER Qdeo True Color processing. The banding in the top portion of
the image has been removed while preserving the sharpness of the steps in the bottom portion of the image."

All pretty cool really. These 2010 Pioneer ELITE A/V receivers has some pretty advanced video processing in them, thanks to Marvell Qdeo Tech!

[DarkDune]

I just checked and our Pioneer VSX-33, along with the PS3, is actually outputting 36-bit (12bitx12bitx12bits) Deep Color from some PS3 Games to our 10-Bit Sony Bravia KDL-40XBR4 Display.

I will check whether Blus are in 36-bit color too later

Pretty cool!

[DarkDune]

Originally Posted by DarkDune

I just checked and our Pioneer VSX-33, along with the PS3, is actually outputting 36-bit (12bitx12bitx12bits) Deep Color from some PS3 Games to our 10-Bit Sony Bravia KDL-40XBR4 Display.

I will check whether Blus are in 36-bit color too later

Pretty cool!

Yep!

36-bit color on Blus too! I can tell you, the VSX-33's Mavell Qdeo Tech really does smooth out the banding, even in 1080p source that actually has it, and makes the picture look outstanding!

[4K2K]

But it will be softening (or slightly blurring) the picture - even when slight colour/brightness steps in the picture are actually what is supposed to be in the picture. It would be more accurate if Blu-rays were actually encoded with more colour/brightness steps instead of softening/blurring existing video.

[steve1971]

8 bit, 10 bit my eyes cant tell the difference. I own the 46V5100 and again I cant tell the difference. Of course I have no clue if my tv has the 8 or the 10-bit panel. But again I cant tell either way.

[DarkDune]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

But it will be softening (or slightly blurring) the picture - even when slight colour/brightness steps in the picture are actually what is supposed to be in the picture. It would be more accurate if Blu-rays were actually encoded with more colour/brightness steps instead of softening/blurring existing video.

It actually does not.

"Qdeo technology uses per-pixel content-adaptive Compression Artifact Reduction (CAR) to remove the block and mosquito noise without causing side-effects like blurring or loss of detail."

It is pretty impressive.

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by DarkDune

It actually does not.

"Qdeo technology uses per-pixel content-adaptive Compression Artifact Reduction (CAR) to remove the block and mosquito noise without causing side-effects like blurring or loss of detail."

It is pretty impressive.

That's their advertising - of course they are going to say things like that. If it is scientifically tested by independent testers then yes I might believe it. See Penton's thread - he also says there is no technology that removes noise/grain without also removing actual detail.

How could it know exactly what is artefacts that it should try to remove and what isn't? Just because there is a step in the brightness/colour doesn't necessarily mean it is an artefact - it could have been supposed to be like that. I think we should have actual content with more precision. It's basically trying to do for colour/brightness ranges what upscaling tries to do when upscaling standard definition to HD.

[DarkDune]

Originally Posted by steve1971

8 bit, 10 bit my eyes cant tell the difference. I own the 46V5100 and again I cant tell the difference. Of course I have no clue if my tv has the 8 or the 10-bit panel. But again I cant tell either way.

There are several Blu-rays that actually have examples of banding in the source, when displayed with 8-bit color. Some examples are:

Planet Earth - In the Main Menu, there is banding in the blue "halo" around the Earth.

Cars - In the scene where Mater takes Lightning McQueen "Tractor Tipping", there is banding in the blue sky.

Up - In the scene where the old man first meets his idol, as we watch him standing in the cave containing the "Spirit of Adventure", there is banding present in the blue around his head, in the darkness of the cave.

How To Train Your Dragon - In the scene where Hiccup's Dad walks with him into a big dark hall, finding out that Hiccup had actually been to the Dragon's Nest, there is banding present throughout in the "sunbeams" that shine in and around Hiccup.

There are many other examples, and I am not kidding when I tell you that the Marvell Qdeo Video Processing actually gets rid of that banding, and keeps the clarity of the rest of the picture. I also found out from the iPhone App that controls the Receiver that it is getting and then outputting 36bit (12bit*3) color to our HDTV's 10bit Display. If I turn the Video processing off, the banding returns.

It is kinda startling that tech was developed to improve upon it. Blu-ray -- to my knowledge -- has 8bit color, so the 12bit color generated by the Video processing is generated from each bit in the 8bit color image.

[DarkDune]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

That's their advertising - of course they are going to say things like that. If it is scientifically tested by independent testers then yes I might believe it. See Penton's thread - he also says there is no technology that removes noise/grain without also removing actual detail.

How could it know exactly what is artefacts that it should try to remove and what isn't? Just because there is a step in the brightness/colour doesn't necessarily mean it is an artefact - it could have been supposed to be like that. I think we should have actual content with more precision. It's basically trying to do for colour/brightness ranges what upscaling tries to do when upscaling standard definition to HD.

It may be in-part advertising, but have you seen it in action?

Banding in Blu is one of the ONLY things that I detest in such an HD format. In my opinion, there shouldn't be any. So, when I discovered that our new A/V Receiver was actually improving upon it, I was like,

"Are you kidding me?!?! Wow!"

I am pretty tough when it comes to noticing flaws in source material, and I am here to say that what they are doing with that tech is impressive.

[Ray O. Blu]

Originally Posted by MrRoy

Currently I have a Sony KDL-40V3000. It boasts a 10-bit processor and a 10-bit panel. The V4100 and V5100 (I think) series has an 8-bit panel. Does anyone know if the human eye can really detect the dif between an 8-bit and a 10-bit panel?

I have an 8-bit V2500 & a 10-bit Z5100 and my human eyes & my wife's eyes notice a difference in them. The 10-bit seems to have more colors, smoother color transitions, more gradations, and plenty of other colorful word descriptions that truly set the 10-bit apart from the 8-bit, non deep-color version.

[DarkDune]

Originally Posted by Ray O. Blu

I have an 8-bit V2500 & a 10-bit Z5100 and my human eyes & my wife's eyes notice a difference in them. The 10-bit seems to have more colors, smoother color transitions, more gradations, and plenty of other colorful word descriptions that truly set the 10-bit apart from the 8-bit, non deep-color version.

Yes!

The difference is more subtle gradations is areas where 8bit would render "banding". It is very noticeable, especially when you are looking for it.

I'll say it again (perhaps I did already here or on another Forum)...

"Banding" is the ONE thing I detest in HD formats. IMVHO, it should not be there at all, in HD.