Power Conditioners

[slimmer]

MODS - Sorry if this should be located somewhere, but...

I've been looking more and more into power conditioners, line conditioners, surge/spike protection, noise suppressors, ETC. and I'm jumping off the fence and agreeing that I should obviously have more than just the 6-outlet surge protection bar behind my HT unit.

I've always believed in the idea of "you get what you pay for", but I've done a little reading and decided not to go too expensive (hey, if I had the budget to purchase a $1500 power conditioner, I would also consider upgrading the wiring throughout the house, a better receiver/plasma/blu ray, etc. I don't, so I won't). That said, what is the difference between them all?

I can't justify spending $300-500 on a conditioner, so I found some basic Monster conditioners in the $100-175 range. Then I remembered using an APC UPS/surge protector for my home PC that was $60.

Any recommendations? Thoughts? Gift certificates? Any help would be appreciated.

Slim

[ditch-digger]

Originally Posted by slimmer

MODS - Sorry if this should be located somewhere, but...

I've been looking more and more into power conditioners, line conditioners, surge/spike protection, noise suppressors, ETC. and I'm jumping off the fence and agreeing that I should obviously have more than just the 6-outlet surge protection bar behind my HT unit.

I've always believed in the idea of "you get what you pay for", but I've done a little reading and decided not to go too expensive (hey, if I had the budget to purchase a $1500 power conditioner, I would also consider upgrading the wiring throughout the house, a better receiver/plasma/blu ray, etc. I don't, so I won't). That said, what is the difference between them all?

I can't justify spending $300-500 on a conditioner, so I found some basic Monster conditioners in the $100-175 range. Then I remembered using an APC UPS/surge protector for my home PC that was $60.

Any recommendations? Thoughts? Gift certificates? Any help would be appreciated.

Slim

well if not to picky, i picked up this one, and it works, and looks fine. work i mean it lights up and sits nice in the rack. cant really tell if any of these work unless needed. like an airbag..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WM3GYI?...SIN=B000WM3GYI

[The Spanierd]

Funny you would ask, cause today I picked up The Monster HTS 1000 MKIII after realizing I could not afford to have anything happen to my very hard earned HT equipment. I happen to pick this up as a steal brand new sealed from a guy in Long Island NY via craigslist for $60. So Im thrilled and Im gonna install everything tonight and see if it affects the picture or sound at all considering I live in a very very old house. Ive heard old houses have a on a noise in the lines and I guess will see but for $60 I cant go wrong.

[erict]

Just an F.Y.I. Great deal and a steal
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...=1&topnav=&s=1

[westom]

Originally Posted by slimmer

I can't justify spending $300-500 on a conditioner, so I found some basic Monster conditioners in the $100-175 range. Then I remembered using an APC UPS/surge protector for my home PC that was $60.

If there is a scam, Monster Cable will be quick to also sell those products at even higher prices. If Monster is selling it, then except all similar products to be just as defective.

For example, if it does power conditioning, then post the manufacturer's spec numbers that say so. They can say virtually anything in a sales brochure. And will because so many so want to be scammed as to let their eyes glaze over rather than view numbers.

What do you want? Line conditioner (which is myth that assumes all electrical anomalies are same). Noise? Harmonics? Surges?

Each is completely different - required different solutions located in different locations. There is no magic box to do all.

Furthermore, anything that might be accomplished on the power cord must already be inside the appliance.

How do telcos solve these same problems that (for them) are even more severe? They spend less money and instead use products that solve the problem.

Surges. What does a surge seek? Earth ground. Surge protection is always about where that energy gets dissipated. Either you do (for tens or 100 times less money) what telcos do all over the world - earth a surge before it can enter the building. Or you give the surge even more paths to hunt for earth destructively via your appliances - the plug-in protector.

Energy is the entire concept of surge protection. A surge absorbed harmlessly by earth does not enter the building. Does not overwhelm protection inside every appliance. Without proper earthing and one 'whole house' protector, that surge can be dissipated destructively inside appliance. What does a plug-in protector do? Give that current more paths to find earth via adjacent appliances.

Effective surge protector is about $1 per protected appliance. So Monster Cable sells their scam for $100 or $150? Monster knows the naive do not learn the 100 year old technology - will instead pay $hundreds for the scam. Scam? A $3 power strip, with some fancy paint and some ten cent parts sell for $100+. Its numeric specs do not even claim any protection.

Post those spec numbers. It must state protection from each electrical anomaly - in numbers.

That UPS claims 300 joules. Near zero surge protection. But near zero means they can claim in a sales brochure: *Surge Protection*. The naive will believe because the naive will not even view manufacturer’s spec numbers - that do not even claim any surge protection.

Dollars say nothing. The only fact that matters is its numeric specs and the fundamental electrical principles well proven in science.

Why do you need noise protection? Noise protection (filtering) must already exist inside its power supply. What did the manufacturer's spec numbers state? Or did hearsay say you need noise protection?

[4x12]

I was one of those guys who also thought Monster was a scam... charging a lot for something you can get from brand B at a lower price. But dude, a friend of mine recently purchased a used used HDP-1600 on craigslist about a month ago, paid about $60 for it.

It was a little scratched here and there but nothing major and one of the little lights up front didnt work. That annoyed him, so he called up Monster, said he had a 1600 that was defective but he didnt have the original receipt... No probl;em they said, he got an RA # and they asked him to send it in and a brand new unit would be sent out once it arrived. He asked them how long shipping would take to get back to him because he didnt want to leave his gear without protection. They gave him 2 options 1) he send his unit and waits for the new one to arrive or 2) He leaves them a credit card # and they would send out a new one the same day, even before he sent out the old one! The credit card was a protection precaution for them in case they never receive the old unit.

No questions asked, no "original" receipt asked... what other company do you know of that would exchange something "defective" without the orignal receipt ? Not many that I know of!! So to me, this is great service and piece of mind that if my unit should ever break down my ass is covered.

[The Spanierd]

Originally Posted by 4x12

I was one of those guys who also thought Monster was a scam... charging a lot for something you can get from brand B at a lower price. But dude, a friend of mine recently purchased a used used HDP-1600 on craigslist about a month ago, paid about $60 for it.

It was a little scratched here and there but nothing major and one of the little lights up front didnt work. That annoyed him, so he called up Monster, said he had a 1600 that was defective but he didnt have the original receipt... No probl;em they said, he got an RA # and they asked him to send it in and a brand new unit would be sent out once it arrived. He asked them how long shipping would take to get back to him because he didnt want to leave his gear without protection. They gave him 2 options 1) he send his unit and waits for the new one to arrive or 2) He leaves them a credit card # and they would send out a new one the same day, even before he sent out the old one! The credit card was a protection precaution for them in case they never receive the old unit.

No questions asked, no "original" receipt asked... what other company do you know of that would exchange something "defective" without the orignal receipt ? Not many that I know of!! So to me, this is great service and piece of mind that if my unit should ever break down my ass is covered.

AMEN !

Also even if you think that Monster products are useless, others like it because it is well built and usually looks better then other products. Anybody who says monster sucks is completely wrong, but if you do believe they are overpriced and you find that to be in the scam category, well then that's ok too. But please don't say monster products are bad, when in fact they are fantastic. Are there better and cheaper brands ? Perhaps, but if we go by that rule then why do people pay so much money for Ferrari's when there are cars out there that look a bit less attractive and go faster !

[slimmer]

Originally Posted by westom

If there is a scam, Monster Cable will be quick to also sell those products at even higher prices. If Monster is selling it, then except all similar products to be just as defective.

For example, if it does power conditioning, then post the manufacturer's spec numbers that say so. They can say virtually anything in a sales brochure. And will because so many so want to be scammed as to let their eyes glaze over rather than view numbers.

What do you want? Line conditioner (which is myth that assumes all electrical anomalies are same). Noise? Harmonics? Surges?

Each is completely different - required different solutions located in different locations. There is no magic box to do all.

Furthermore, anything that might be accomplished on the power cord must already be inside the appliance.

How do telcos solve these same problems that (for them) are even more severe? They spend less money and instead use products that solve the problem.

Surges. What does a surge seek? Earth ground. Surge protection is always about where that energy gets dissipated. Either you do (for tens or 100 times less money) what telcos do all over the world - earth a surge before it can enter the building. Or you give the surge even more paths to hunt for earth destructively via your appliances - the plug-in protector.

Energy is the entire concept of surge protection. A surge absorbed harmlessly by earth does not enter the building. Does not overwhelm protection inside every appliance. Without proper earthing and one 'whole house' protector, that surge can be dissipated destructively inside appliance. What does a plug-in protector do? Give that current more paths to find earth via adjacent appliances.

Effective surge protector is about $1 per protected appliance. So Monster Cable sells their scam for $100 or $150? Monster knows the naive do not learn the 100 year old technology - will instead pay $hundreds for the scam. Scam? A $3 power strip, with some fancy paint and some ten cent parts sell for $100+. Its numeric specs do not even claim any protection.

Post those spec numbers. It must state protection from each electrical anomaly - in numbers.

That UPS claims 300 joules. Near zero surge protection. But near zero means they can claim in a sales brochure: *Surge Protection*. The naive will believe because the naive will not even view manufacturer’s spec numbers - that do not even claim any surge protection.

Dollars say nothing. The only fact that matters is its numeric specs and the fundamental electrical principles well proven in science.

Why do you need noise protection? Noise protection (filtering) must already exist inside its power supply. What did the manufacturer's spec numbers state? Or did hearsay say you need noise protection?

Okaaaaaaaaaay. Thanks for the input.

Went with a Belkin PF30 just for the Level 4 power protection and Phase 3 PureFilter noise reduction. I figured better to be safe than sorry. Either way, I'll post if it helps/hinders/does ANYTHING for the HT system:

[jlynn33]

I installed one this weekend for my computer room. Two PCs, Two 47" Flat Panel LCDs, 1 Quad-Core Server, Two 5.1 Surround Sound Sets, 1 Gigabit Router/Modem, 16-Port Gigabit Switch. Had no idea that household voltage fluctuates as much as it does. The digital readout on the from says I am 117 to 121 at different times!

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by slimmer

MODS - Sorry if this should be located somewhere, but...

I've been looking more and more into power conditioners, line conditioners, surge/spike protection, noise suppressors, ETC. and I'm jumping off the fence and agreeing that I should obviously have more than just the 6-outlet surge protection bar behind my HT unit.

I've always believed in the idea of "you get what you pay for", but I've done a little reading and decided not to go too expensive (hey, if I had the budget to purchase a $1500 power conditioner, I would also consider upgrading the wiring throughout the house, a better receiver/plasma/blu ray, etc. I don't, so I won't). That said, what is the difference between them all?

I can't justify spending $300-500 on a conditioner, so I found some basic Monster conditioners in the $100-175 range. Then I remembered using an APC UPS/surge protector for my home PC that was $60.

Any recommendations? Thoughts? Gift certificates? Any help would be appreciated.

Slim

I had an experience recently with APC and my receiver. Long story short, the receiver's display blew after an apparent brown-out/power loss. I filed a claim with APC. They replaced my unit (even upgraded me to black) and settled with me for my requested amount even though they could find no fault with the unit. The only thing I paid was shipping, which is potentially reimbursed. All in all it was quick and painless process.

I own an H10 and would definitely recommend it or something from their line.

[erict]

Originally Posted by aramis109

I had an experience recently with APC and my receiver. Long story short, the receiver's display blew after an apparent brown-out/power loss. I filed a claim with APC. They replaced my unit (even upgraded me to black) and settled with me for my requested amount even though they could find no fault with the unit. The only thing I paid was shipping, which is potentially reimbursed. All in all it was quick and painless process.

I own an H10 and would definitely recommend it or something from their line.

Good deal. I have the H10 as well and love it. Did they replace you're receiver?

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by erict

Good deal. I have the H10 as well and love it. Did they replace you're receiver?

Nope. They settled for $300, which is the price I put down as far as what I felt repairs would cost. I wish I would've put down more to actually cover replacement, but they might not've taken that. As it turns out, repairs cost less than that, so in the end it ended well.

[westom]

Originally Posted by The Spanierd

Perhaps, but if we go by that rule then why do people pay so much money for Ferrari's when there are cars out there that look a bit less attractive and go faster !

People who recommend Ferraris responsibly first learn the numbers. Simple concepts such as Horsepower per liter. Facts based in manufacturer numeric specs. Numbers based in reality - not hype proven by the size of a penis. The ignorant buy Ferraris because just as ignorant women will screw them. Which numbers were you viewing. Myths about a penis or facts that define the car?

If anyone automatically believes money proves quality, then that backyard is probably full of Buick Reattas - some of the most expensive crap ever sold in America. Bodies built in Italy and flown by 747s to America. Must be better because they are so more expensive.

We just hired a communication major who defined "Level 4 pwer protection and Phase 3 PureFilter noise reduction". Now we have really good surge protection because English sounds more complex. No wonder so many Americans also believed Saddam had WMDs. They believed exactly what they were told to believe. Why do we even bother educating people as engineers when propaganda is all we really need?

Anyone who recommends a Monster Cable or APC product on such myths is asking to be scammed. When it comes to promoting scams to the naive, Monster Cable is an industry benchmark.

Anyone using second grade science or who first reviewed manufacturer’s spec sheets quickly learns why effective protection (that also costs tens or 100 times less money) has that short connection to earth. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - as was well understood even 100 years ago. Spend tens or 100 times less money for protetion that works - as proven by 100 years of research papeers and experience. Those who worship the dollar big may even measure their penis size every day. Some people never learned which numbers are important. Others are well educated by communication majors.

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by westom

People who recommend Ferraris responsibly first learn the numbers. Simple concepts such as Horsepower per liter. Facts based in manufacturer numeric specs. Numbers based in reality - not hype proven by the size of a penis. The ignorant buy Ferraris because just as ignorant women will screw them. Which numbers were you viewing. Myths about a penis or facts that define the car?

If anyone automatically believes money proves quality, then that backyard is probably full of Buick Reattas - some of the most expensive crap ever sold in America. Bodies built in Italy and flown by 747s to America. Must be better because they are so more expensive.

We just hired a communication major who defined "Level 4 pwer protection and Phase 3 PureFilter noise reduction". Now we have really good surge protection because English sounds more complex. No wonder so many Americans also believed Saddam had WMDs. They believed exactly what they were told to believe. Why do we even bother educating people as engineers when propaganda is all we really need?

Anyone who recommends a Monster Cable or APC product on such myths is asking to be scammed. When it comes to promoting scams to the naive, Monster Cable is an industry benchmark.

Anyone using second grade science or who first reviewed manufacturer’s spec sheets quickly learns why effective protection (that also costs tens or 100 times less money) has that short connection to earth. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - as was well understood even 100 years ago. Spend tens or 100 times less money for protetion that works - as proven by 100 years of research papeers and experience. Those who worship the dollar big may even measure their penis size every day. Some people never learned which numbers are important. Others are well educated by communication majors.

In the spirit of teaching a man to fish, why not explain a bit further in terms us dumb folks can understand like second grade science. Rather than looking for a battle of wits/insults ??? Perhaps we can teach you proper social skills and you can share some useful information minus the insults ??? Sound like a fair trade ???

Just saying, if you wanna talk the talk, then you should have to walk the walk, no ??? You can't fault AV enthusiasts (man or woman) for wanting to protect their gear and purchasing/using a Power Center.

Is it useful for people to use these products for protecting their gear if one of the phases gets knocked out and therefore under powering their gear ??? I had this recent experience and my Monster Power Center shut the power off protecting my analog gear from being sent only 60 odd volts. Wouldn't this damage my gear ???

Should note: I am properly grounded to earth.........

[350gt]

Originally Posted by 4x12

I was one of those guys who also thought Monster was a scam... charging a lot for something you can get from brand B at a lower price. But dude, a friend of mine recently purchased a used used HDP-1600 on craigslist about a month ago, paid about $60 for it.

It was a little scratched here and there but nothing major and one of the little lights up front didnt work. That annoyed him, so he called up Monster, said he had a 1600 that was defective but he didnt have the original receipt... No probl;em they said, he got an RA # and they asked him to send it in and a brand new unit would be sent out once it arrived. He asked them how long shipping would take to get back to him because he didnt want to leave his gear without protection. They gave him 2 options 1) he send his unit and waits for the new one to arrive or 2) He leaves them a credit card # and they would send out a new one the same day, even before he sent out the old one! The credit card was a protection precaution for them in case they never receive the old unit.

No questions asked, no "original" receipt asked... what other company do you know of that would exchange something "defective" without the orignal receipt ? Not many that I know of!! So to me, this is great service and piece of mind that if my unit should ever break down my ass is covered.

+2 I love there customer service...Swapped out a defective HDMI cable for me with no questions asked.




For power conditioners I picked up this one at BB http://www.panamax.com/Products/A-V-.../M4300-PM.aspx and it does the job. I didnt notice a better picture like others but I atleast have a piece of mind that my gear is safe..

[slimmer]

Gotta love MDabb's response and I agree with him - forum answers in here...in my opinion...are getting a little avsforum-esque lately, if that makes sense to anyone. But in Westom's case, at least those at avsforum tend to back their argument(s) with facts and figures. All I received was random references to Ferraris, Saddam Hussein and a history lesson in Marketing 101.

Anywhoooo, after sweating my coulions off last night installing the unit, I was able to hook-up the Belkin PF30 I rec'd in the mail yesterday:

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=178339

(Sorry; wife took the camera while visiting family out west).

I can personally say there might be a slight change in PQ, or maybe not and it's wishful thinking. However, there is definitely a change for the better in Audio. Crisper, clearer speech and a tighter/deeper sounding sub it seems. Had to turn the volume down from where I usually set it for movies.

This purchase was to be a line conditioner first, and surge/spike protection second.

So far, so good.

[repete66211]

I thought it was pretty well established that a power conditioner will not improve PQ or AQ.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by repete66211

I thought it was pretty well established that a power conditioner will not improve PQ or AQ.

Depending on the equipment, specific system and circumstances, power conditioners may improve PQ and AQ.

Rich

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Depending on the equipment, specific system and circumstances, power conditioners may improve PQ and AQ.

Rich

Yes, if you have very dirty power then a power conditioner may help. But how do you know you have dirty power? How can you eliminate bias when determining if your PQ has increased?

[westom]

Originally Posted by mdabb

In the spirit of teaching a man to fish, why not explain a bit further in terms us dumb folks can understand like second grade science.

The Monster Cable is recommended without any facts. Even Monster Cable's numeric specifications do not claim any surge protection. An inform consumer, who wanted to know rather than just believe popular hearsay, could easily see that. Where are those Monster Cable numbers that claim any protection from each type of surge? None exist. None provided. We are told to believe Monster Cable product do good only because they must do good. That is science? No. That is how propaganda works.

Why do no specs exist? That also was posted.
> What does a surge seek? Earth ground. Surge protection is always about
> where that energy gets dissipated. Either you do (for tens or 100 times
> less money) what telcos do all over the world - earth a surge before it
> can enter the building. Or you give the surge even more paths to hunt
> for earth destructively via your appliances - the plug-in protector.
>
> Energy is the entire concept of surge protection. A surge absorbed
> harmlessly by earth does not enter the building. Does not overwhelm
> protection inside every appliance. Without proper earthing and one
> 'whole house' protector, that surge can be dissipated destructively
> inside appliance. What does a plug-in protector do? Give that current
> more paths to find earth via adjacent appliances.
>
> Effective surge protector is about $1 per protected appliance. So Monster
> Cable sells their scam for $100 or $150?

Second grade science. What does lightning seek? Earth ground. Why does it cause damage? Second grade science. It seeks paths destructively to earth for the same reason it destroyed wooden church steeples. Did Ben Franklin magically stop surges? Of course not. Second grade science. Either surge currents use destructive paths to earth via church steeples (or household appliances). Or current is harmlessly absorbed in earth using a path via lightning rods (or properly earthed protectors).

No reason was provided to recommend anything from Monster Cable - except emotional testimony and wild speculation. That $150 Monster Cable protector has the same protector circuit sold in the grocery store for $7. And yet some know it is better only because Monster Cable charges more for their fancy paint? Its more expensive; therefore it must be better? That is science?

Will that silly little 2 cm part inside a Monster Cable would stop and absorb what three miles of sky could not? Others thought so. After all, long and admirable phrases proved it must be true: "Level 4 pwer protection and Phase 3 PureFilter noise reduction".

Reality from over 100 years of science and experience: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

For some, the embarrassment of being scammed will be too much. They must deny reality rather than admit to being taken by another Monster Cable scam. No way around the science. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Are your protectors properly earthed? "Less than 10 feet". No sharp wire bends. Ground wires separated from other non-grounded wires? Not inside metallic conduit. All ground wires separate until they meet at single point earth ground? That Monster Cable protector has no earth ground for those reasons and more. Does your building both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code? How many of these essential requirements did you know? Do you know the electrical reasons why? Most do not. And yet that comes from the well proven 100 years of science and experience. Or what is meant by "a protector is only as effective as its earth ground".