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Old 12-27-2005, 11:41 AM   #1
thunderhawk thunderhawk is offline
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Default Fate of high-def DVD may lie with Microsoft

Fate of high-def DVD may lie with Microsoft



MADISON, Wis. — After months of intense wrangling between the competing Blu-ray and HD-DVD groups, the battle lines in the war over a next-generation high-definition DVD format have moved to the doorstep of Microsoft Corp.

Several industry sources last week told EE Times that Microsoft is muscling into the optical-disk fray by leveraging its operating-system clout to bundle HD-DVD within Vista, the company's next-generation OS. There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives — in the form "coupons" — to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD. Such coupons would provide "credits" or "memos" for each PC that is sold with HD-DVD inside.

Many consumer electronics companies in the Blu-ray camp are scrambling to figure out, respond to and possibly preempt the next move by the world's largest — and richest — computer software maker.

Microsoft would neither confirm nor deny such reports. Asked about financial incentives the company might be dangling in front of PC OEMs to lure them into the HD-DVD camp, a spokesman said, "Microsoft doesn't comment on the details of meetings we've had with our partners."

One fact, however, is hard to miss: In the short span of two months, Microsoft has gotten through to Hewlett-Packard Co. HP, which still sits on the board of the Blu-ray Disc Association and previously supported the Blu-ray format exclusively, joined the HD-DVD Forum earlier this month. This semi-reversal came in the wake of a series of meetings with Microsoft, said Maureen Weber, general manager of HP's Personal Storage Business.

In October, when Microsoft and Intel Corp. announced their support for HD-DVD, Weber warned of "legal implications, if Microsoft is using its dominance in the operating system market — virtually a monopoly — to play favorites and hurt the competition" (see http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showA...eID=171202192).

Asked whether Microsoft is now doing just that, Weber said that in the end, "It's about money and the cost to the PC industry." Whereas the overall Blu-ray royalty structure adds up to $30 per PC drive, she said, everything a PC vendor needs to support HD-DVD "comes free, shipped and integrated with Vista — Microsoft Corp.'s next-generation operating system."

Most PC companies have no choice but to support Vista in the Microsoft-dominant OS market.

Still, many consumer electronics executives involved in negotiations with PC OEMs believe there is more to the story of HP's flip. Some sources expect clarifications and new developments to emerge within the next several weeks, shedding light on the decision.

Dell Inc., for its part, has no intention of switching its support from Blu-ray, Brian Zucker, a Dell technology strategist who sits on the Blu-Ray DVD committee, told EE Times. "The only reasons we would make a change would be if we saw significant customer demand not to back the format we have been working on," he added.

Dell, which was not involved in defining the original CD or DVD specifications, decided a couple of years ago that it was important to get involved in the current format discussions. "This time we wanted to work upstream a little bit more, particularly as we are getting more interested in the digital home," Zucker said.

Dell chose Blu-ray for two reasons: its higher capacity (25 Gbytes for an entry-level disk, compared with about 15 Gbytes for a basic HD-DVD) and its longer list of industry backers. Two years later, Dell now feels it has a vested interest in Blu-ray because it helped make sure the spec represented its customers' interests, Zucker said.

Zucker added that he has no idea why Dell's major partners — Intel and Microsoft — are opposing Blu-ray and backing HD-DVD. In his opinion, slight differences in the copy protection scheme for Blu-ray will not prevent users from making so-called "managed copies" of content on the disks, a feature that he said was a priority for both camps.

Intel provides no optical-disk technology, so a difference of opinion between Dell and Intel on the subject has little impact on the PC maker. Likewise, Microsoft, which does not make optical drives, has a history of letting third-party software companies supply key optical-disk support rather than write its own optical-disk code into Windows.

Given that history, the overarching question for many industry watchers is: Why is Microsoft now siding with HD-DVD, a format that has generated relatively little enthusiasm among Hollywood studios and hardware vendors?

While Dell may have no idea about Microsoft's motives, those in the consumer electronics industry have several theories.

Many, who spoke on condition of anonymity, believe Microsoft is committed to prolonging the format war, not necessarily winning the battle for HD-DVD. Rather, they say, HD-DVD is a Trojan horse, rolled into the format war to create advantages in battles yet to be fought — especially against Sony Corp.

Xbox vs. Playstation

Consider, for example, Microsoft's Xbox 360. The new game console is already on the market despite the absence of a high-definition strategy, said one source. The Xbox 360 is based on a current-generation DVD drive. The longer the next-generation high-definition DVD format battle persists, the better the opportunity for Microsoft to downplay the HD capability scheduled for integration in Sony's upcoming Blu-ray-based Playstation 3 game machine

Second, a drawn-out high-definition optical-disk format battle helps Microsoft buy time to promote its connected-home strategy. By undercutting the value of standalone prerecorded media devices, Microsoft hopes to accelerate a consumer electronics transition into the brave new world of "downloadable" content, some observers say.

As Peter Barrett, chief technology officer of the Microsoft TV Division, explains it, the company believes that "the point of integration, the point of convergence, is the service, not the device" (see Interview, page 1).

In Microsoft's view, next-generation consumer devices will no longer be simply connected to one-way broadcast or removable media. Rather, the company envisions HD-DVD players tied to the network via subscription services. In essence, said a longtime Microsoft observer, by leveraging its .Net strategy, Microsoft "wants to become the telephone company of the living room."

Third, the classic battle between Microsoft and CE companies always comes down to the stickiest issue: to Java or not to Java.

For Microsoft, hoping to establish control over the software platform in the living room, support for HD-DVD is critical in this regard. The format uses iHD, an XML-based technology, to add interactivity, rather than Sun Microsystems Inc.'s Java language.

In contrast, consumer electronics companies are committed to deploying the Java-based Multimedia Home Platform in the Blu-ray format. MHP has already established itself in the TV world as the standard platform upon which to offer interactivity. MHP is widely used in Europe, and is the foundation of CableLabs' Open Cable Application Platform and the Advanced Television Systems Committee's Advanced Common Application Platform in the United States.

"For MHP, the industry already has development tools, experience and a growing installed base that will grow regardless of any DVD decision," said Stu Lipoff, partner at IP Action Partners (Newton, Mass.).

The Java-averse Microsoft "is trying to displace MHP so that they have a big dog in the fight," he said.

Meanwhile, Microsoft is blaming Blu-ray's use of Java for its potentially much higher royalties. Java-based Blu-ray format royalties include the licensing of the Globally Executable MHP standard, the cost of a Java test kit from Sun Microsystems and the cost of BD-Java, the version on which the Blu-ray Disc format is built, said HP's Weber.

PCs don't need Java because they already offer interactivity. In contrast, consumer electronics companies do need Java to make their end products interactive. Just as consumer electronics manufacturers regard integrating Microsoft's Windows as overkill, HP feels that Java in a PC platform is too costly.

Big backers

Until Microsoft stepped into the battle, the Blu-ray Disc format was gaining ground steadily over HD-DVD, with support from a majority of major studios in Hollywood — with the exception of NBC Universal — and a much longer list of hardware companies than HD-DVD can boast. Besides Dell and fellow computer maker Apple, supporters include Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita (Panasonic), Mitsubishi, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson.

But even with that list of heavyweights, nobody is declaring a Blu-ray victory, because everyone understands the sheer power Microsoft can — and often does — exercise, all by itself.

Among familiar Microsoft tactics is to offer incentives — promotions, discounts and credits — to PC OEMs. If a certain percentage of an OEM's systems use Windows, Microsoft typically chips in on advertising campaigns and co-sponsors promotional events. When a PC manufacturer is living on a 3 percent margin, such market-development payments or volume-discount rebates can be make-or-break factors. Some industry observers have termed these in-kind subsidies from Microsoft "the heroin of the PC industry."

Asked whether Microsoft was offering Dell or anyone else financial incentives to join the HD-DVD consortium, Dell's Zucker said, "I have not heard anything about that, nor would I comment on it."
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Source: http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showA...leID=175400242
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Old 12-27-2005, 01:44 PM   #2
Shadowself Shadowself is offline
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Cool Microsoft strong arming

I've used this exact same post title for other posts in this forum. I've said long ago that HP only switched because of Microsoft's strong arming them.

It should be a clear abuse of monopolistic power and an attempt to extend that power for Microsoft to pay people to use its software. Everyone (other than certain top Microsoft employees and board members) should screem very loudly about this.

But... the best, yet maybe only, laugh out of this article is the statement by Lipoff of IP Action Partners, "Microsoft, then, can add the needed digital rights management to the Windows operating system for a more-seamless and perhaps higher-security protection of the content than would be possible for DRM software that is an add-in."

Since when does anyone outside of Microsoft itself think Microsoft can build "higher security protection"? Microsoft software security is one of the industry's true oxymorons!
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Old 12-27-2005, 02:08 PM   #3
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Well people are starting to get annoyed with MS and Vista wont be that appealing either... maybe enough to make them change to other OSs or to stay with XP.
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Old 12-27-2005, 02:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowself
I've said long ago that HP only switched because of Microsoft's strong arming them.
I couldn't agree more. Microsoft has a huge monopoly in the OS market which the government should have already broken up. Regardless, I refuse to believe that Microsoft is so powerful that they could help HD-DVD to succeed even when given the fact that 90% of the movie studios are behind Blu-ray. No way can they win without a lot more "strong arming."
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Old 12-27-2005, 02:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI2K
Well people are starting to get annoyed with MS and Vista wont be that appealing either... maybe enough to make them change to other OSs or to stay with XP.
Amen to that. Unfortunately I'm using XP right now but I can assure you my next computer with be an Apple. I've got a friend with a PowerBook and that sucker's a thing of beauty. He's had no problems whatsoever. I certainly can't say that with my HP PC or my Gateway laptop.
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Old 12-27-2005, 03:14 PM   #6
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It's a good thing Microsoft are going to release Vista on HD. This must be the biggest bloatware exercise they have come up with yet! An O/S that requires more than 600MB is outragous 4.7GB totally amazing at least with HD they have to stop at 30GB (or is that "please insert disk #2") with BD they have up to 50GB (I'm sure they could fill that).
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Old 12-27-2005, 08:09 PM   #7
thunderhawk thunderhawk is offline
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Amen to all the above... But there's one thing I don't get:
Quote:
Asked whether Microsoft is now doing just that, Weber said that in the end, "It's about money and the cost to the PC industry." Whereas the overall Blu-ray royalty structure adds up to $30 per PC drive, she said, everything a PC vendor needs to support HD-DVD "comes free, shipped and integrated with Vista — Microsoft Corp.'s next-generation operating system."
Wasn't the BDA created to REDUCE royalties???

I really am for the anti-trust cases agaist M$ now. It seems all so obvious.
The BDA should really ignore M$ and say; "You guys deal with the software, we with the hardware, now shut up! We've made our decisions and now we're going to launch!"
Unfortunately, this is not reality. As usual, damn capitalists!
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Old 12-27-2005, 08:31 PM   #8
hmurchison hmurchison is offline
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Default Blu Ray a tad expensive

Sheesh $30 in licensing fees. Now you see why so many Japanese manufacturers are keen on Blu Ray. Each one is getting a little payola. It also point to why they aren't happy with HD DVD which has likely kept the licensing fees a tad cheaper.
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Old 07-03-2006, 01:07 PM   #9
zara zara is offline
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hey!just click on http://www.geovid.com/Presentation_to_Video_Converter/
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Old 07-03-2006, 02:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyg
I couldn't agree more. Microsoft has a huge monopoly in the OS market which the government should have already broken up. Regardless, I refuse to believe that Microsoft is so powerful that they could help HD-DVD to succeed even when given the fact that 90% of the movie studios are behind Blu-ray. No way can they win without a lot more "strong arming."
Don't put it past them.

All I know is: Never buy a new Windows OS until a minimum of six months has gone by after release.

Personally, I never update Windows until I HAVE to.
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Old 07-03-2006, 03:26 PM   #11
partridge partridge is offline
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Personally I'm of the opinion that the only reason MS is showing any interest in HD-DVD is because Sony, their console arch rivals, are pushing the rival format.

I don't think MS give a stuff about which format becomes the next standard. it's just a convenient way to niggle their competitor.

Ol' Bill Gates can even be quoted saying that physical storage is coming to an end, he reckons within a few years anyone with fast broadband will simply download their media. If that's the case, why the interest in HD-DVD, Microsoft?

Me? cynical...
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Old 07-03-2006, 03:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by partridge
Personally I'm of the opinion that the only reason MS is showing any interest in HD-DVD is because Sony, their console arch rivals, are pushing the rival format.

I don't think MS give a stuff about which format becomes the next standard. it's just a convenient way to niggle their competitor.

Ol' Bill Gates can even be quoted saying that physical storage is coming to an end, he reckons within a few years anyone with fast broadband will simply download their media. If that's the case, why the interest in HD-DVD, Microsoft?

Me? cynical...

I couldn't agree with you more. The door swings both ways.

Sony and MS will always be on the opposite side of any given subject just because.

I've used this hyperbole countless times but you get the point: Sony could find the cure for cancer today and MS would oppose it, and vice versa.

That's all there is to it.

I still maintain that HD-DVD wouldn't even be here now were it not for Microsoft...especially after the IFA 2005 and CES 2006 showings.
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Old 07-03-2006, 04:55 PM   #13
georgir georgir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue
It's a good thing Microsoft are going to release Vista on HD. This must be the biggest bloatware exercise they have come up with yet! An O/S that requires more than 600MB is outragous 4.7GB totally amazing at least with HD they have to stop at 30GB (or is that "please insert disk #2") with BD they have up to 50GB (I'm sure they could fill that).
what a misunderstanding huh?
noone said vista will be ON hddvd. it's gonna come on a DVD actually.
the point was that vista will include hddvd playing capabilities, and its price will include the hddvd-related royalties, no matter if the pc has a hddvd drive or not. so OEMs are better off using hddvd instead of bluray, since if they use vista they've payed for it anyway.

i'm seriously sceptical to such reasoning though. never have i heared about any royalties or licensing fees collected on either dvd, bluray or hddvd SOFTWARE. if there are any fees related to those formats, they will much more naturally be part of the price of the hardware device - the optical drive itself. the system assemblers, retailers or end consumers will not know about it either way.

are microsoft giving money to OEMS so they can buy the hddvd drives, or what? i don't get it.
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Old 07-03-2006, 04:56 PM   #14
mainman mainman is offline
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MS is starting to annoy the sh*t out of me man.
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Old 07-03-2006, 05:21 PM   #15
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Microsoft just doesn't want to have to pay sony licensing fees for blu-ray discs.
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Old 07-03-2006, 07:34 PM   #16
hmurchison hmurchison is offline
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Well you guys gotta admit that the BDA kind of thumbed their noses at Microsoft.

1. They know Redmond detests Java so they choose BD-Java over iHD (which Disney played a part in development)

2. They were reticent to support Mandatory Managed Copy which is crucial for nextgen Media Centre PC

3. The Xbox vs Playstation battle.


4. Japan doesn't like VC-1 and to date all HD DVD titles are AVC

With all the above happening I'm surprised Microsoft even considered supporting Blu-Ray. Clearly they have just as much mistrust.

Oh well makes the battle more fun.
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:19 PM   #17
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i wish microsoft would just stay out of it!
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Old 07-06-2006, 05:14 PM   #18
Psiweaver Psiweaver is offline
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if microsoft stayed out of it the battle would be over.
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Old 07-06-2006, 06:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiweaver
if microsoft stayed out of it the battle would be over.

How so? They haven't shipped one HD DVD product. They own no movie studios. Sure they've given HD DVD some mindshare but I reject the notion that Microsoft is somehow keeping HD DVD alive. What's keeping HD DVD alive is the overpromising and undelivering that's coming from the BD camp.

Microsoft will become a factor when they have Media Centre PC with HD DVD drives and perhaps Cablecard support. That will be a killer system. Take your favorit movies and drop'em to the hard drive via Mandatory Managed Copy and watch your Home Theatre jump to the next level.
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Old 07-06-2006, 11:40 PM   #20
JTK JTK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
How so? They haven't shipped one HD DVD product. They own no movie studios. Sure they've given HD DVD some mindshare but I reject the notion that Microsoft is somehow keeping HD DVD alive.



Prove it. Back this up with something concrete and meaningful, if you can...


Quote:
What's keeping HD DVD alive is the overpromising and undelivering that's coming from the BD camp.
Yes, that certainly doesn't help things.
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