Boutique labels and copies sold

[Loftus]

I know there's a few industry people on here and others with a lot of knowledge of the home video market so hopefully someone will be able to share their thoughts on this. I'm curious about how the boutique labels assess this- how many copies would, for example, Arrow need to sell of a niche film such as The Chill Factor for it to be profitable? I'd assume it would be relatively inexpensive for them to acquire the rights to that film compared to something like Pitch Black. But there's the whole process of restoration, producing extras, artwork and all the other costs associated with releasing any Blu-ray. Do the profits on the "bigger" releases help these companies release these smaller films? What would be considered success for a release such as that?

[malcy30]

Have read before that many of the small independent labels depend upon high sales of a few big hitters to subsidise the release of more obscure titles.

Regarding licencing costs they may get less popular films included in a package with the big titles when negotiating with the studios. They know some titles will sell and others won’t so they bundle the less popular stuff in to get a bit a money rather than nothing if every title sold individually.

Talking about Arrow they must have made good money on something like The Thing given how fast that sold out of the LE and steelbook even with upped numbers. A sure the later standard releases is still a good seller for them.

But then other titles they have sit around e.g. Robocop didn’t sell particularly fast for a well known title but then many like me felt the old MGM BD was okay, the new extras weren’t earth shattering and we’re waiting for the UHD. Think others like The Game may sit around as that wasn’t really what fans wanted with an overpriced LE. Again it really needed a UHD to sell well.

With other labels like Indicator you can clearly see they buy films in batches from the studios hence the multiple boxsets they do as well as the individual titles.

[thuata]

It's something that I've been wondering as well, additionally I'd be curious to know what percentage of releases fail to make a profit entirely. Obviously numbers are going to vary a lot depending on the publishers but any example or estimate would be enough.

[Aclea]

Often it's not how many copies you sell, but when you sell them - which is why boutiques are increasingly going for limited edition packages or booklets which will sell out quickly at full price rather than have people wait until they're a fiver in a sale.

[Geoff D]

Aye, at a certain point you could sell as many copies as you liked in a sale or offer but the amount you'd be making on them would be pitiful (not that the labels are rolling in cheddar as it is). It's why even the major studios and big distributors like StudioCanal are turning to the tat-led limited edition model to drive initial sales, never mind the indies.

[CelestialAgent]

Based on Indicator taking anywhere between a year to four to shift 3000 units, and Third Window struggling to shift some of its LEs quickly (One Cut of the Dead moved pretty fast), probably not many or that profitable.

[Loftus]

Any guesses as to how many units Arrow might have sold overall of a film such as Weird Science which iirc was in the top 3 or so of the Blu-ray chart in its first week?

[huntauk]

There are a couple of Indicator LE's I've hovered over from time to time such as 90 In The Shade. Problem is I can never find 5 titles in the sale to get free shipping. I mostly purchase the ones I want day one, and others which pique my interest after a recommendation or through reading about the director etc, I pick up at whatever price is available then and there, rather than waiting.

[Cragworth]

Originally Posted by malcy30

But then other titles they have sit around e.g. Robocop didn’t sell particularly fast for a well known title

Sorry but this is a totally baseless statement. You’re basing this on the fact the LE and Steelbook haven’t sold out but you don’t know whether that’s because of slow sales or whether there was no limit on the product run. I feel it’s the latter because I don’t see why Arrow would licence a well known IP like Robocop, which I’d imagine would have a fairly high licence cost then only do a short print run of it. Again I have no proof of this but It’s films like these that will fund the rest of their releases. I’m sure Robocop sold really well for them but I did notice at the time that this and Fear and loathing in Las Vegas didn’t sell out (and I think both are still available?) but Nightbreed and American Werewolf in London sold out after a few weeks, then early the next year Beyond the Door and Hagazussa sold out very quickly (both were only printed in the low thousands though) whereas other short print titles such as The Woman and Afternoon Midnight are still available.
It’d be great to find out how many copies of each title these labels sell (I’d love to know how the recent JCVD releases From 88 Films are doing) but I guess we will never know.

[Indicator]

Originally Posted by Loftus

Do the profits on the "bigger" releases help these companies release these smaller films?

In a word, yes.

Short of a subsidy from an eccentric millionaire, that's the only viable way that a boutique label can operate, at least if it wants to handle labour-of-love projects that they know in advance (based on extensive experience of handling similar titles) are unlikely to storm sales charts. Although it's lovely when that happens.

[johnpaul2]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aye, at a certain point you could sell as many copies as you liked in a sale or offer but the amount you'd be making on them would be pitiful (not that the labels are rolling in cheddar as it is). It's why even the major studios and big distributors like StudioCanal are turning to the tat-led limited edition model to drive initial sales, never mind the indies.

On top of this, I suspect the more premium releases would yield a bigger margin for the label since prices can be slightly upped because they're outside of the usual pricing scale.

Take for instance the recent Total Recall or Ladykillers LE from Studio Canal : they sure look huge and with tons of discs and extra fluff, but actually, how much more did they cost to produce than a regular release vs how much higher are their price points ?

Same goes for Elephant Man, especially considering the price difference of the LE vs the 4K steelbook and the difference in content.

By adding all the extra fluff, it's harder for the consumer to gauge if the price seems adequate and when you add on top of that the "buy it quick before it's gone" aspect, it makes the LE market an appealing one.

Originally Posted by Cragworth

Sorry but this is a totally baseless statement. You’re basing this on the fact the LE and Steelbook haven’t sold out but you don’t know whether that’s because of slow sales or whether there was no limit on the product run.

There are no such thing as "no limit on the product run", and as their naming quite explicitly says, both Limited Editions of RoboCop (steelbook and "cardboard-type") had limited print-runs. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to retrieve how much copies of it there were, but I would suspect at least 3000, possibly 5000.

Originally Posted by Cragworth

I feel it’s the latter because I don’t see why Arrow would licence a well known IP like Robocop, which I’d imagine would have a fairly high licence cost then only do a short print run of it.

Arrow have released also RoboCop on a standard release and are keeping their licence alive. Just like they've done for dozens of their titles.

Originally Posted by Cragworth

I’m sure Robocop sold really well for them

For such a high-profile title and based on what the LE are saying, it hasn't. As you mention, An American Werewolf in London sold out its LE much quicker (3 months IIRC), so even a smaller batch run wouldn't explain the difference in how quicker it sold out. RoboCop LEs, while sold out on Arrow's webstore (so I guess it's possible the batches are close to sell out), are still available on Amazon after a year.

I do think it looks like a one-off disappointment though, and I'd say if taking RoboCop as an example is "baseless", it'd be rather because it seems to have massively underperformed (possibly because it was already widely available on BD in the UK through a very good and very dcheap release) so it might just not be very representative as Arrow's sales overall, especially for bigger titles.

Hagazussa sold out very quickly, in about a few weeks, but was 2000 copies. Still a very good performance.

[Jackie Scanlon]

Originally Posted by Indicator

In a word, yes.

Short of a subsidy from an eccentric millionaire, that's the only viable way that a boutique label can operate, at least if it wants to handle labour-of-love projects that they know in advance (based on extensive experience of handling similar titles) are unlikely to storm sales charts. Although it's lovely when that happens.

Purely out of curiosity, can you give us an example (or a few) of titles that you thought would be very niche and wouldn't sell particularly well but ended up being barnstormers, and also those that had "SUREFIRE SELL OUT" written all over them but only shifted a small number or took a long time to go?

[Darby1985]

Originally Posted by Jackie Scanlon

Purely out of curiosity, can you give us an example (or a few) of titles that you thought would be very niche and wouldn't sell particularly well but ended up being barnstormers, and also those that had "SUREFIRE SELL OUT" written all over them but only shifted a small number or took a long time to go?

I do remember Indicator apologising that Night Tide wasn't included on their low stock updates - it sold so fast there wasn't time to include it. Seemed to be a bigger, or at least faster, seller than they thought.

I wouldn't expect Indicator to answer as to what release disappointed sales wise. Some of the earlier titles that took years to go may be in there. Scum's LE hanging about a lot longer than others may be. But it's all relative to what's been spent producing them.

[malcy30]

Originally Posted by Cragworth

Sorry but this is a totally baseless statement. You’re basing this on the fact the LE and Steelbook haven’t sold out but you don’t know whether that’s because of slow sales or whether there was no limit on the product run. I feel it’s the latter because I don’t see why Arrow would licence a well known IP like Robocop, which I’d imagine would have a fairly high licence cost then only do a short print run of it. Again I have no proof of this but It’s films like these that will fund the rest of their releases. I’m sure Robocop sold really well for them but I did notice at the time that this and Fear and loathing in Las Vegas didn’t sell out (and I think both are still available?) but Nightbreed and American Werewolf in London sold out after a few weeks, then early the next year Beyond the Door and Hagazussa sold out very quickly (both were only printed in the low thousands though) whereas other short print titles such as The Woman and Afternoon Midnight are still available.
It’d be great to find out how many copies of each title these labels sell (I’d love to know how the recent JCVD releases From 88 Films are doing) but I guess we will never know.

You’re wrong. Arrow said both are limited.

With JCVD we know each title is limited to 3,000 copies and they won’t be reissued. So when they go OOP we know the 3,000 are sold.

[CelestialAgent]

Originally Posted by malcy30

You’re wrong. Arrow said both are limited.

With JCVD we know each title is limited to 3,000 copies and they won’t be reissued. So when they go OOP we know the 3,000 are sold.

I like to get things when they’re about to disappear (would buy everything otherwise), and actually a little surprised the JCVD have still hung around.

[Cragworth]

I’m not wrong about Robocop at all, and what you’ve stated is baseless because by definition you have no information to base your statement from.
For all you know the “limited” edition of Robocop could well be 10,000 copies in print and it could well have sold 8,000 units since it’s release date. But unless we work for the company none of us has any idea. Just because Arrow states it’s “limited” means very little without a production run number I’m afraid. Technically every release is “limited” otherwise we’d never get any OOP titles would we?

[Cragworth]

Originally Posted by malcy30

With JCVD we know each title is limited to 3,000 copies and they won’t be reissued. So when they go OOP we know the 3,000 are sold.

Yeah I know it’s 3000 copies each, that’s not what I was getting at.
What I meant by the question was that I’ve noticed indicators limited editions can take up to 3 or 4 years to sell 3000 copies of some titles. By knowing what the actual sales might be for the 3 JCVD titles it would give us an indication of if there is actually an appetite for them and the chances of more being released.

[Loftus]

Originally Posted by Indicator

In a word, yes.

Short of a subsidy from an eccentric millionaire, that's the only viable way that a boutique label can operate, at least if it wants to handle labour-of-love projects that they know in advance (based on extensive experience of handling similar titles) are unlikely to storm sales charts. Although it's lovely when that happens.

Having seen his extensive boutique labels collection on YouTube, I'm thinking Elliot Coen might meet this description.

[moviegeek1992]

Originally Posted by CelestialAgent

I like to get things when they’re about to disappear (would buy everything otherwise), and actually a little surprised the JCVD have still hung around.

Considering the film title (Street Fighter) only came out a little over a month ago it's hardly surprising. Plus it's sold out at 88 Films' store and whatever copies remain at other retailers is all there is. That's not too shabby for a film that's been available on Blu-ray for years prior to this edition.

[CelestialAgent]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

Considering the film title (Street Fighter) only came out a little over a month ago it's hardly surprising. Plus it's sold out at 88 Films' store and whatever copies remain at other retailers is all there is. That's not too shabby for a film that's been available on Blu-ray for years prior to this edition.

Didn't know that had sold out, I suppose it might draw in the gaming crowd as well

Originally Posted by Loftus

Having seen his extensive boutique labels collection on YouTube, I'm thinking Elliot Coen might meet this description.

Tbh he doesn't come across as a millionaire