24HZ vs. 120 HZ?

[Pelican170]

Ok, now if this is a stupid question, i apologize. Ive been researching the different outputs and just a little confused i guess. So, my brother got a new samsung LCD, it can accept 24 hz, i checked it out last night, seemed very nice and didnt notice any jutters. Now, with the 120 hz that some sets offer, would this be a better setting due to a smoother picture from motion? Is that the only difference?

[Chevypower]

120HZ originally had nothing to do with 24p, they were meant to make 60i look smoother. Modern PAL TVs have 100HZ (to smooth out 50i) Though newer NTSC sets with 120HZ do a 5:5 pulldown on 24 frames, I am not sure if this makes 24p look better though.

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by Pelican170

Ok, now if this is a stupid question, i apologize. Ive been researching the different outputs and just a little confused i guess. So, my brother got a new samsung LCD, it can accept 24 hz, i checked it out last night, seemed very nice and didnt notice any jutters. Now, with the 120 hz that some sets offer, would this be a better setting due to a smoother picture from motion? Is that the only difference?

it doesn't matter it the LCD can ACCEPT 24hz (and then run a 3:2 pulldown), it matters is the tv can DISPLAY 24hz, there is a big difference.

Like I said before, I believe your brother has a 6 series, which are all 60hz HDTVs, besides the 69. These TVs accept a 24hz singnal and will do a 3:2 pulldown and you will get UNEVEN judder (though the 6 series does a great job at minimizing this). 24fps film has JUDDER in it. a 60hz HDTV produces UNEVEN judder and that is the big issue between 60hz and 24hz.

A 120hz TV will use interpolation (w/motion enhancers on) which will make the picture very smooth, but I and many other HT enthusisits, do not believe this is the way the movie was meant to look.

A 120hz TV without motion enhances on will simply show the same frame 5 times 24fps (5x24 = 120). You will still have EVEN judder in this, but EVEN judder is a part of film. I don't think you are seeing any judder because thats what your eyes are used to.

I honestly don't see much of a difference between a 6 series HDTV and a 120hz HDTV w/motion enhancers off, to warrent a new purchase.

There is a thread over at AVS if you can find it specifically about these HDTVs and 24hz v 60hz.

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

it doesn't matter it the LCD can ACCEPT 24hz (and then run a 3:2 pulldown), it matters is the tv can DISPLAY 24hz, there is a big difference.

Like I said before, I believe your brother has a 6 series, which are all 60hz HDTVs, besides the 69. These TVs accept a 24hz singnal and will do a 3:2 pulldown and you will get UNEVEN judder (though the 6 series does a great job at minimizing this). 24fps film has JUDDER in it. a 60hz HDTV produces UNEVEN judder and that is the big issue between 60hz and 24hz.

A 120hz TV will use interpolation (w/motion enhancers on) which will make the picture very smooth, but I and many other HT enthusisits, do not believe this is the way the movie was meant to look.

A 120hz TV without motion enhances on will simply show the same frame 5 times 24fps (5x24 = 120). You will still have EVEN judder in this, but EVEN judder is a part of film. I don't think you are seeing any judder because thats what your eyes are used to.

I honestly don't see much of a difference between a 6 series HDTV and a 120hz HDTV w/motion enhancers off, to warrent a new purchase.

There is a thread over at AVS if you can find it specifically about these HDTVs and 24hz v 60hz.

Yea, sorry like i said, somewhat new to me. Well, all i know is that when watching the movie, i pressed the info button on the tv and it said 24hz... Am i mixing things up here?

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by Pelican170

Yea, sorry like i said, somewhat new to me. Well, all i know is that when watching the movie, i pressed the info button on the tv and it said 24hz... Am i mixing things up here?

No, you aren't. My HDTV says the exact same thing. Its simply saying that the signal being fed into the TV is 24hz. The TV is still converting it to 60hz, because thats all those TVs can display.

Its very confusing, I had a very similar situation to what you are having now. and after doing quite a bit of research came to the conclusion that these TVs can accept in a 24hz signal, however cannot display 24hz and have to use a 3:2 pulldown.

The 6 series samsungs are beautiful HDTVs to say the least and your brother made a very good choice.

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

No, you aren't. My HDTV says the exact same thing. Its simply saying that the signal being fed into the TV is 24hz. The TV is still converting it to 60hz, because thats all those TVs can display.

Its very confusing, I had a very similar situation to what you are having now. and after doing quite a bit of research came to the conclusion that these TVs can accept in a 24hz signal, however cannot display 24hz and have to use a 3:2 pulldown.

The 6 series samsungs are beautiful HDTVs to say the least and your brother made a very good choice.

OK im understanding more and more what you are saying. THanks again for the info.

[TimmothyMcPiddles]

I have a Sony KDL-40v3000 and it accepts a 24 fps input and it does help smooth out the movie. I agree that 120 Hz makes movies look very odd and I truly dislike it. It makes the movie appear as if it's being played at an increased rate. They say that this is because it is more life like movement, but as far as I have compared (as I am an empiricist) real life doesn't look like that...

[shido]

Originally Posted by TimmothyMcPiddles

I have a Sony KDL-40v3000 and it accepts a 24 fps input and it does help smooth out the movie. I agree that 120 Hz makes movies look very odd and I truly dislike it. It makes the movie appear as if it's being played at an increased rate. They say that this is because it is more life like movement, but as far as I have compared (as I am an empiricist) real life doesn't look like that...

The motion enhancement makes the movies look super smooth, not the 120hz refresh rate. Just turn off motion enhancement and it'll look normal.

[hc666]

Just noticed this 120Hz thing on the FS website when browsing TVs.

They always have to come out with some gimmick to jack the price back up over 3K... first it was 1080i sets over that, than along came 1080P sets back over 3 and now with have 1080P but with 120Hz.

Getting worse than Pentiums back in the 90s.

So what I am reading here is that 120Hz makes the picture look un-natural?

I was looking at a new LCD TV and found one I like but it was only 60Hz... and they appear to be pushing this 120Hz now... so I guess it's better to go with the 60Hz and save some money?

[TimmothyMcPiddles]

I guess I was mistaken when I stated that the 120 Hz technology causes the film to look unnatural. Evidently it's the motion enhancement setting that causes this.

Shido, this question is for you: does the motion setting turn the 120 Hz on and off or is something else that "smooths" out the motion on the display.

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by TimmothyMcPiddles

I guess I was mistaken when I stated that the 120 Hz technology causes the film to look unnatural. Evidently it's the motion enhancement setting that causes this.

Shido, this question is for you: does the motion setting turn the 120 Hz on and off or is something else that "smooths" out the motion on the display.

Im not Shido, but will answer your question.

The motion enhancment will interpolate frames between the frames. In other words it is guessing and making up what it thinks 4 frames of movie would look like in between every two frames encoded on the disc. So every second you are seeing 120 DIFFERENT frmaes of information, however only 20% of those 120 are actually real frames on the disc, the other 80% are just made up frames that try to bridge the gap between frames.

With motion enhancment turned off, there is no guessing, you only see 24 DIFFERENT frames per second and those frames are repeated 5x before it moves on to the next frame, which is repeated 5x and the cycle repats it self (120/24= 5) if you were wondering why its repeated 5x.

This will explain things further: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=33838

[dobyblue]

This is why I'm interested in seeing how a BD looks on the -800 series plasma's from Panasonic with 48Hz capability; they should match the theatrical look quite accurately which may not sit well with people who prefer the "sheen" of higher refresh rates to remove the flicker of the film.

[TimmothyMcPiddles]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

Im not Shido, but will answer your question.

The motion enhancment will interpolate frames between the frames. In other words it is guessing and making up what it thinks 4 frames of movie would look like in between every two frames encoded on the disc. So every second you are seeing 120 DIFFERENT frmaes of information, however only 20% of those 120 are actually real frames on the disc, the other 80% are just made up frames that try to bridge the gap between frames.

With motion enhancment turned off, there is no guessing, you only see 24 DIFFERENT frames per second and those frames are repeated 5x before it moves on to the next frame, which is repeated 5x and the cycle repats it self (120/24= 5) if you were wondering why its repeated 5x.

This will explain things further: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=33838

Yeah, but I have tried figuring out what causes the seeming increase in play rate with the motion enhancement on and the only thing I can come to is that the interpolation does a very bad job of "guessing" what the next frames will look like.

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by TimmothyMcPiddles

Yeah, but I have tried figuring out what causes the seeming increase in play rate with the motion enhancement on and the only thing I can come to is that the interpolation does a very bad job of "guessing" what the next frames will look like.

correct, the guessing is far from pefect and will not accuratley show motion. thats why motion enhancment is dumb and is a gimmick.

[TimmothyMcPiddles]

That's what I figured. Now I don't know if anyone else here agrees with me, but it seems that 120 Hz only minorly affects the judder in movies during panning shots (this is me comparing a 120 set to my kdl-40v3000 with 1080/24p playback). It also has little effect on blurring. Is it correct for me to assume that response time is much more important when trying to minimize blurring?

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by TimmothyMcPiddles

That's what I figured. Now I don't know if anyone else here agrees with me, but it seems that 120 Hz only minorly affects the judder in movies during panning shots (this is me comparing a 120 set to my kdl-40v3000 with 1080/24p playback). It also has little effect on blurring. Is it correct for me to assume that response time is much more important when trying to minimize blurring?

Thats because judder is a natural part of film. What a TV does that can display 24p is get rid of the uneven judder that is caused by an 3:2 pulldown on a 60hz HDTV.

i don't know if you are a gamer, but gamers tend to prefer 60fps for video games. We get upset when a game only has 30fps, because it isn't as smooth. Now those movies encoded at 24fps have 20% less frames than a 30fps video game, which of course does not look smooth at all and has judder during pan shots.

[TimmothyMcPiddles]

Yeah, the reason I got an LCD was because of the fact that I game...a lot. Haha.

I still think that movies on my TV, that are played through my PS3, look amazing and the detail is mindblowing. I don't mind the judder very much, especially when I have 24p playback enabled (I kind of think it gives me a theater feel).
All in all I think 120 Hz along with motion enhancement is not worth the extra grand.

What does everyone else think?

[hc666]

Originally Posted by TimmothyMcPiddles

Yeah, the reason I got an LCD was because of the fact that I game...a lot. Haha.

I still think that movies on my TV, that are played through my PS3, look amazing and the detail is mindblowing. I don't mind the judder very much, especially when I have 24p playback enabled (I kind of think it gives me a theater feel).
All in all I think 120 Hz along with motion enhancement is not worth the extra grand.

What does everyone else think?

I feel the 120Hz is a gimmick that raises the price a grand... just like 1080P did when it was first being advertised. So when 120Hz sets go down a grand... there will be some other stupid gimmick that will raise the price back up and so on and so on......................... it will never end... always keep ppl upgrading just like computers.

[TimmothyMcPiddles]

If you're not rich and you realize that the "gimmicks" aren't really worth much (at least not near as much as they want you to pay), then you will end up making a very financially conscious buy, however the buy will be very satisfying and you'll find yourself enjoying movies and games more than you have ever before.

[U4K61]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

Im not Shido, but will answer your question.

The motion enhancment will interpolate frames between the frames. In other words it is guessing and making up what it thinks 4 frames of movie would look like in between every two frames encoded on the disc. So every second you are seeing 120 DIFFERENT frmaes of information, however only 20% of those 120 are actually real frames on the disc, the other 80% are just made up frames that try to bridge the gap between frames.

With motion enhancment turned off, there is no guessing, you only see 24 DIFFERENT frames per second and those frames are repeated 5x before it moves on to the next frame, which is repeated 5x and the cycle repats it self (120/24= 5) if you were wondering why its repeated 5x.

Motion enhancement belongs along side the dust bin of DNR and sharpness controls whose correct setting is usually off. Another cludge to further confuse the buyer.