B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch…too bright? - Blu-ray Forum

cravnsn · 09-04-2008, 02:37 PM

As posted in another thread, I recently bought a used pair of B&W DM302 speakers. Really nice, had all the hallmarks of a good speaker – fast transient response, imaging, soundstage…etal, but the level of detail came at the expense of a very bright top end. I had also listened to an older pair of Polk Audio Monitor 40 speakers, and found them to be very much the same – too bright.

Many moons ago, I had a set of Klipsch, which also had gobs of detail, but the horn loaded tweeters caused too much listening fatigue.
So, my question is…is this the trend across the current offerings from B&W, Polk, Klipsch, Paradigm…I see a lot of metal being used in tweeters, and I’m wondering if I can ever find a pair of speakers I can enjoy without being bombarded with too much high end brightness. I know some don’t see these speakers as being out of balance, but I would appreciate any input of models/brands to be looking at for consideration. I’m looking at a lot of things on ebay, and while I know there is no substitute for in person auditioning, at least I can maybe get a direction to go in while cyber shopping.

Thanks

Craig

MacDaddyOJack · 09-04-2008, 02:43 PM

Klipsch is generally the brightest of that bunch, especially since they use metal dome tweeters. Most of Polk's new lineup is not nearly as bright, they use textile and silk dome tweeters. The monitor lineup from polk is their entry level and is probably why you didn't like the sound.

I have an older pair of Polk RTi 70's that I got about 7 years ago and they are far more relaxed than anything from Klipsch. Paradigms can be bright, but they are usually pretty solid as well. I can't speak very much for B&W as I haven't heard but one or two speakers from them, but I don't think they have the bright reputation either.... Could it be that you just don't like treble?

My best advice for any new speakers you look at would be to stay away from metal tweeters, they are notorius for being bright. You may just have to listen around a while to find something you like. Make sure that they place you are listening at doesn't have treble controls turned all the way up either!

cravnsn · 09-04-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacDaddyOJack

Klipsch is generally the brightest of that bunch, especially since they use metal dome tweeters. Most of Polk's new lineup is not nearly as bright, they use textile and silk dome tweeters. The monitor lineup from polk is their entry level and is probably why you didn't like the sound.

I have an older pair of Polk RTi 70's that I got about 7 years ago and they are far more relaxed than anything from Klipsch. Paradigms can be bright, but they are usually pretty solid as well. I can't speak very much for B&W as I haven't heard but one or two speakers from them, but I don't think they have the bright reputation either.... Could it be that you just don't like treble?

My best advice for any new speakers you look at would be to stay away from metal tweeters, they are notorius for being bright. You may just have to listen around a while to find something you like. Make sure that they place you are listening at doesn't have treble controls turned all the way up either!:p

Don't mind treble at all, as long as it's not overbearing. And yes, when I first heard the Polks, the trebel had been cranked. I set it to neutral, and they were still too bright for my taste. I think I lean towards a warmer sound, like a Boston.

MacDaddyOJack · 09-04-2008, 03:00 PM

I just looked at Polk's site and they are using a silk polymer dome now. The tweeters on my polks are more of a silk cloth. I can see why you thought they might be a tad bright now. Again, I think you are just going to have to look around.

One last thing: what are you listening on now? Lots of people go from mediocre setups with the bass and treble cranked to the max to make up for the crappy speakers they have. When they do this, they get used to the bloated midrange that accompanies that kind of equilizer tweaking. Just a thought, you may just prefer a really relaxed speaker.

Sir Terrence · 09-04-2008, 03:49 PM

Folks need to give the new Klipsch speaker line a listen. The problem with earlier Klipsch speakers had nothing to do with the material the tweeter was made of. It was the differences in sensitivity of the tweeter and mid/bass drivers. The tweeter(because of the horn loading) had a much higher sensitivity than the mid/bass drivers, so when the volume went up, the tweeter was always louder than the cone driver. This made the speaker bright at normal listening levels, and VERY bright at louder levels. The newer designs have a tweeter and mid/bass cone much closer in sensitivity, so they maintain their balance much better when turned up.

fdm · 09-04-2008, 04:15 PM

I find my B&Ws to be too bright. I basically use THX mode on my reciever all of the time to tame them movie-wise, and most of the time that's pretty close to perfect for me. [Mine are from the middle of their top of the line Nautilus series, a generation back (803s in front, 804s in back, htm1 in the middle).] Music-wise, haven't really done that much listening due partly/mostly to their brightness, and also any more I'd rather be watching movies.

cravnsn · 09-04-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacDaddyOJack

I just looked at Polk's site and they are using a silk polymer dome now. The tweeters on my polks are more of a silk cloth. I can see why you thought they might be a tad bright now. Again, I think you are just going to have to look around.

One last thing: what are you listening on now? Lots of people go from mediocre setups with the bass and treble cranked to the max to make up for the crappy speakers they have. When they do this, they get used to the bloated midrange that accompanies that kind of equilizer tweaking. Just a thought, you may just prefer a really relaxed speaker.

I have an older pair of AR PS2052 speakers. My EQ is set to “off” on my Onk605.
I’m really looking at center channel speakers, with the idea that I would buy 2, and stand them vertically for an MTM arrangement. I had a pair of floor speakers years ago with this set up, and liked the way it minimized the effect of “lobbing” across the front image.

Woody · 09-04-2008, 04:46 PM

To the OP, I too tended to get listening fatigue (even headaches) with bright speakers.

I would start by looking for soft dome tweeters. Even some of those tend to be bright, but it is a good place to start.

Many manufacturers have gone to metal dome tweeter (titanium, beryillium, aluminum, etc, etc) and I struggle to enjoy them. The bad thing is that some of them tend to have some of the qualities I look for: pinpoint imaging, wide soundstage, good bass response, hell some even have solid driver integration. But after listening to them for any length of time, I just have to stop. *shrug*

IMO this has come from joe schmoe liking "loud and bright"!! Some folks play it so loud it hurts their ears, but they enjoy it anyway. IMO that is why Klipsch has taken off like it has. Klipsch will flat out play LOUD with nearly any AVR because they are so efficient. So when they show off their system, the SPL alone gives them the "wow" factor.

Anyway, I could go on forever extolling the virtues (and limitations) of soft-dome tweeters, but I would start there if I were you.

dobyblue · 09-04-2008, 04:52 PM

I did notice the Monitor line from Paradigm is quite a bit brighter than the studio line.

I have Monitor 11 v4's and v5's for rears and fronts and the 5's do seem to be not as natural as the 4's. The efficiency was increased quite a bit between the two models and they were advertised for "playing loud"

I should have saved up longer and gone with Studio 100's v4's.

CasualKiller · 09-05-2008, 02:45 AM

Find yourself a local shop where you can demo a pair of Martin Logan's Preface speakers. They are in the same price range as the speakers you listed <1500 to 1800 ish a pair> and utilize superb ribbon tweeters. The soundstage on them is very impressive.

CAB · 09-05-2008, 02:47 AM

What Paradigm model? I own Studio 100s for the casual room and the S8s for real room. Neither sound bright. They aren't the best for music and aren't the best for theater but they strike a very good balance.

bluseminole · 09-05-2008, 03:53 AM

May I suggest Revel speakers? I loved them when I demoed them, and I would describe them as detailed but smooth (these were the Concerta F12s). Their Performa series is a step up from the $1200/pair F12s.

They are certainly not fatiguing. Compared to the $2200 Paradigm Studio 100s, I preferred the F12s in every aspect. Just my .02.

airkitty · 09-05-2008, 03:21 PM

OK - bright is sometimes an interpretation of enhanced resolution. Resolution can reveal shortcomings in electronics, rooms, wires, etc... can you give us details about the rest of your system and listening environment?
Mark
old audio guy

NTKT10 · 09-05-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I did notice the Monitor line from Paradigm is quite a bit brighter than the studio line.

I have Monitor 11 v4's and v5's for rears and fronts and the 5's do seem to be not as natural as the 4's. The efficiency was increased quite a bit between the two models and they were advertised for "playing loud"

I should have saved up longer and gone with Studio 100's v4's.

Yes, the newer Monitor line is completely different sounding (much brighter) than the line was a few years ago.

I would recommend the OP listen to some Dynaudio speakers. I have a pair of Dynaudio Audience 72SE speakers now that I am very satisfied with. They're detailed and accurate, but not too bright. To my ears I preferred them over similar B&W, Kef, Klipsch, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, PSB, and others.

kingofgrills · 09-05-2008, 04:40 PM

Craig, can you give us a description of the system and cables you're trying to pair the speakers with? Some combinations work well together, while others obviously will not. I have not encountered brightness when listening to B&W speakers before, and they're generally considered to be very detailed yet warm sounding - typically British.

What sort of gear are you using?

I would also second the recommendation to audition Martin Logan speakers. Given your sensitivity toward bright sounding speakers, I think you'd be a fan of the natural sounding nature of ribbon tweeters.

cravnsn · 09-05-2008, 05:03 PM

OK, first let me say I’m on a tight budget. I am using an Onkyo TX-SR605 & Audioquest speaker wire. I’ve had the wire for a while, bit it has always served me well.

Yes, I understand perception about a speakers quality is subjective, but my ears can only take so much before they cry out “no more”. Also, to me, a bright speaker draws more attention to itself. Am I crazy for thinking I could just swap out the tweeter for another, and get the sound I want?

Riff Magnum · 09-07-2008, 04:30 PM

I'd be more interested to hear what kind of room you have. Dimensions, flooring, acoustical treatments, and the like. This will have more of an impact than the kind of speaker wire your using.

JJ · 09-07-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riff Magnum

I'd be more interested to hear what kind of room you have. Dimensions, flooring, acoustical treatments, and the like. This will have more of an impact than the kind of speaker wire your using.

High ceilings, bare walls, tile floors are all murder on acoustics - this is my next move on my own room before I consider any more actual electronic purchases.

09-04-2008, 02:37 PM	#1
cravnsn Banned Member since:Aug 2008	B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch…too bright? As posted in another thread, I recently bought a used pair of B&W DM302 speakers. Really nice, had all the hallmarks of a good speaker – fast transient response, imaging, soundstage…etal, but the level of detail came at the expense of a very bright top end. I had also listened to an older pair of Polk Audio Monitor 40 speakers, and found them to be very much the same – too bright. Many moons ago, I had a set of Klipsch, which also had gobs of detail, but the horn loaded tweeters caused too much listening fatigue. So, my question is…is this the trend across the current offerings from B&W, Polk, Klipsch, Paradigm…I see a lot of metal being used in tweeters, and I’m wondering if I can ever find a pair of speakers I can enjoy without being bombarded with too much high end brightness. I know some don’t see these speakers as being out of balance, but I would appreciate any input of models/brands to be looking at for consideration. I’m looking at a lot of things on ebay, and while I know there is no substitute for in person auditioning, at least I can maybe get a direction to go in while cyber shopping. Thanks Craig

Similar Threads
thread	Forum	Thread Starter	Replies	Last Post
Paradigm Monitor vs. Klipsch Reference	Speakers	blu_man_916	30	06-15-2009 11:19 AM
Paradigm, Klipsch or Polk?	Speakers	sorce360	47	03-06-2009 03:17 AM
Which sub & wires/cables/connectors with Yamaha 663 & Paradigm Monitor 7?	Subwoofers	415bluray	8	02-22-2009 11:00 PM
Klipsch rf-82 or Paradigm monitor 11 system	Speakers	Skopone24	45	04-18-2008 03:18 AM
klipsch vs paradigm subwoofer	Speakers	krazeyeyez	48	03-14-2008 04:54 PM

09-04-2008, 02:43 PM	#2
MacDaddyOJack Blu-ray Guru Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Richmond, VA PSNetwork: MacDaddyOJack Trophy Level: 12(4%) Home Theater Gallery:12 Blu-ray collection:71 Blu-ray reviews:23 Trading Score:4	Klipsch is generally the brightest of that bunch, especially since they use metal dome tweeters. Most of Polk's new lineup is not nearly as bright, they use textile and silk dome tweeters. The monitor lineup from polk is their entry level and is probably why you didn't like the sound. I have an older pair of Polk RTi 70's that I got about 7 years ago and they are far more relaxed than anything from Klipsch. Paradigms can be bright, but they are usually pretty solid as well. I can't speak very much for B&W as I haven't heard but one or two speakers from them, but I don't think they have the bright reputation either.... Could it be that you just don't like treble? My best advice for any new speakers you look at would be to stay away from metal tweeters, they are notorius for being bright. You may just have to listen around a while to find something you like. Make sure that they place you are listening at doesn't have treble controls turned all the way up either!

09-04-2008, 03:00 PM	#4
MacDaddyOJack Blu-ray Guru Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Richmond, VA PSNetwork: MacDaddyOJack Trophy Level: 12(4%) Home Theater Gallery:12 Blu-ray collection:71 Blu-ray reviews:23 Trading Score:4	I just looked at Polk's site and they are using a silk polymer dome now. The tweeters on my polks are more of a silk cloth. I can see why you thought they might be a tad bright now. Again, I think you are just going to have to look around. One last thing: what are you listening on now? Lots of people go from mediocre setups with the bass and treble cranked to the max to make up for the crappy speakers they have. When they do this, they get used to the bloated midrange that accompanies that kind of equilizer tweaking. Just a thought, you may just prefer a really relaxed speaker.

09-04-2008, 03:49 PM	#5
Sir Terrence Sound Insider/M.P.S.E. Member since:Dec 2006	Folks need to give the new Klipsch speaker line a listen. The problem with earlier Klipsch speakers had nothing to do with the material the tweeter was made of. It was the differences in sensitivity of the tweeter and mid/bass drivers. The tweeter(because of the horn loading) had a much higher sensitivity than the mid/bass drivers, so when the volume went up, the tweeter was always louder than the cone driver. This made the speaker bright at normal listening levels, and VERY bright at louder levels. The newer designs have a tweeter and mid/bass cone much closer in sensitivity, so they maintain their balance much better when turned up.

09-04-2008, 04:15 PM	#6
fdm Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Nov 2007 Location:Way Out West 4K collection:- Blu-ray collection:- DVD collection:- Digital collection:- iTunes collection:- Prime collection:- Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:3	I find my B&Ws to be too bright. I basically use THX mode on my reciever all of the time to tame them movie-wise, and most of the time that's pretty close to perfect for me. [Mine are from the middle of their top of the line Nautilus series, a generation back (803s in front, 804s in back, htm1 in the middle).] Music-wise, haven't really done that much listening due partly/mostly to their brightness, and also any more I'd rather be watching movies.

09-04-2008, 04:46 PM	#8
Woody Power Member Member since:Jun 2007 Home Theater Gallery:60 4K collection:175 Blu-ray collection:415 DVD collection:165	To the OP, I too tended to get listening fatigue (even headaches) with bright speakers. I would start by looking for soft dome tweeters. Even some of those tend to be bright, but it is a good place to start. Many manufacturers have gone to metal dome tweeter (titanium, beryillium, aluminum, etc, etc) and I struggle to enjoy them. The bad thing is that some of them tend to have some of the qualities I look for: pinpoint imaging, wide soundstage, good bass response, hell some even have solid driver integration. But after listening to them for any length of time, I just have to stop. shrug IMO this has come from joe schmoe liking "loud and bright"!! Some folks play it so loud it hurts their ears, but they enjoy it anyway. IMO that is why Klipsch has taken off like it has. Klipsch will flat out play LOUD with nearly any AVR because they are so efficient. So when they show off their system, the SPL alone gives them the "wow" factor. Anyway, I could go on forever extolling the virtues (and limitations) of soft-dome tweeters, but I would start there if I were you.

09-04-2008, 04:52 PM	#9
dobyblue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jul 2006 Location:Ontario, Canada Home Theater Gallery:71 4K collection:55 Blu-ray collection:655 Blu-ray reviews: 15	I did notice the Monitor line from Paradigm is quite a bit brighter than the studio line. I have Monitor 11 v4's and v5's for rears and fronts and the 5's do seem to be not as natural as the 4's. The efficiency was increased quite a bit between the two models and they were advertised for "playing loud" I should have saved up longer and gone with Studio 100's v4's.

09-05-2008, 02:45 AM	#10
CasualKiller Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Brooks Alberta Blu-ray collection:54 Trading Score:15	Find yourself a local shop where you can demo a pair of Martin Logan's Preface speakers. They are in the same price range as the speakers you listed <1500 to 1800 ish a pair> and utilize superb ribbon tweeters. The soundstage on them is very impressive.

09-05-2008, 02:47 AM	#11
CAB Blu-ray Guru Member since:Jul 2007 Location:::1 4K collection:88 Blu-ray collection:1827 Trading Score:4	What Paradigm model? I own Studio 100s for the casual room and the S8s for real room. Neither sound bright. They aren't the best for music and aren't the best for theater but they strike a very good balance.

09-05-2008, 03:53 AM	#12
bluseminole Senior Member Member since:Oct 2007 Location:Lynchburg, VA Home Theater Gallery:17 Blu-ray collection:177 Blu-ray reviews: 1 Trading Score:6	May I suggest Revel speakers? I loved them when I demoed them, and I would describe them as detailed but smooth (these were the Concerta F12s). Their Performa series is a step up from the $1200/pair F12s. They are certainly not fatiguing. Compared to the $2200 Paradigm Studio 100s, I preferred the F12s in every aspect. Just my .02.

09-05-2008, 03:21 PM	#13
airkitty Active Member Member since:Oct 2007 Location:South East Trading Score:1	OK - bright is sometimes an interpretation of enhanced resolution. Resolution can reveal shortcomings in electronics, rooms, wires, etc... can you give us details about the rest of your system and listening environment? Mark old audio guy

09-05-2008, 04:40 PM	#15
kingofgrills Blu-ray Guru Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Dec 2007 Location:PDX Home Theater Gallery:31 4K collection:5 Blu-ray collection:81 Trading Score:31	Craig, can you give us a description of the system and cables you're trying to pair the speakers with? Some combinations work well together, while others obviously will not. I have not encountered brightness when listening to B&W speakers before, and they're generally considered to be very detailed yet warm sounding - typically British. What sort of gear are you using? I would also second the recommendation to audition Martin Logan speakers. Given your sensitivity toward bright sounding speakers, I think you'd be a fan of the natural sounding nature of ribbon tweeters.

09-05-2008, 05:03 PM	#16
cravnsn Banned Member since:Aug 2008	OK, first let me say I’m on a tight budget. I am using an Onkyo TX-SR605 & Audioquest speaker wire. I’ve had the wire for a while, bit it has always served me well. Yes, I understand perception about a speakers quality is subjective, but my ears can only take so much before they cry out “no more”. Also, to me, a bright speaker draws more attention to itself. Am I crazy for thinking I could just swap out the tweeter for another, and get the sound I want?

09-07-2008, 04:30 PM	#17
Riff Magnum Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Apr 2008 Location:The Island Blu-ray collection:149	I'd be more interested to hear what kind of room you have. Dimensions, flooring, acoustical treatments, and the like. This will have more of an impact than the kind of speaker wire your using.

Best Blu-ray Movie Deals