Lossless - Blu-ray Forum

krazeyeyez · 04-03-2009, 12:50 PM

Ok so are these lossless files the same as say truehd/DTSma, as in lossless is lossless? i am speaking of.....

apple lossless encoder
AIFF
and what ever the pc one is, like WAVlossless i think
and i think FLAC may be one as well

i would think all would be equal, and being on an apple i can only compare the ALE vs AIFF and am curious if they are both lossless why the AIFF takes more space. Is it just an older form of lossless compression, or just not as effective. What do you audiophiles use who can't stand what an mp3 does to your music?

Hammie · 04-03-2009, 03:18 PM

Yes and no.

AIFF, in addition to WAV, are considered uncompressed audio.

Lossless is actually a compression. The difference between lossy and lossless is that lossless audio preserves the original audio file by keeping the size to around 60% of the original as opposed to lossy formats such as MP3 which compress it to a very small file (5-15% of original file file).

FLAC, ALAC, and MPEG-4 ALS are all types of lossless audio typically associated with music files.

SACD, DVD-A, Blu-ray and HD-DVD uses different formats specific to their technology. SA-CD uses DSD (Direct Stream) and the others use MLP (M-Something--I forget Lossless Packaging).

To make things even more confusing there are dual formats as well. For example, Dolby and DTS are considered lossy, but I have DTS encoded WAV files where WAV are considered uncompressed. Some equipment doesn't know how to decode them and you just get static.

Not sure what ALE is, but if you mean ALAC (Apple Lossless) then AIFF will always be bigger since ALAC have some compression applied.

EDIT: ALE (Apple Lossless Encoder) is the same as ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec)

bhampton · 04-03-2009, 06:58 PM

Nice writeup.

I recently nuke and paved my Itunes and re-riped all my stuff with Apple Lossless. I couldn't get over the idea that the sound could be inferior to the CD version so I had no interest in the ipod till I did this.

It still get's ignored but I'll be traveling soon and then I think it will shine.

-Brian

krazeyeyez · 04-03-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhampton

Nice writeup.

I recently nuke and paved my Itunes and re-riped all my stuff with Apple Lossless. I couldn't get over the idea that the sound could be inferior to the CD version so I had no interest in the ipod till I did this.

It still get's ignored but I'll be traveling soon and then I think it will shine.

-Brian

same here, i just started the grueling process of re ripping my huge cd collection, would rather have less music with better quality on my i-pod over the alternative. Didn't pay much attention to how i was ripping first time around since i was new to the i-pod thing and copied everything in AAC. This is gonna take a while

appreciate the explanation lou.

Hammie · 04-03-2009, 11:40 PM

Glad it was helpful.

I also just re-did my CD collection. I went from 30GB to 96GB of disc space. I found that a lot of my discs have some major scratches. I wish I could get a new replacement disc on a few of my favorites. That would be nice.

Now, I am going through the grueling process of making sure all the cover art is correct as well as the album, artist, etc. is correct. That is a big downside of the CDDB library. There are some major inaccuracies.

I also upgraded to iTunes Plus (I guess 256K is better than 128K

). I wish iTunes would go lossless. There has been a lot of chatter but no action.

krazeyeyez · 04-04-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louhamilton

Glad it was helpful.

I also just re-did my CD collection. I went from 30GB to 96GB of disc space. I found that a lot of my discs have some major scratches. I wish I could get a new replacement disc on a few of my favorites. That would be nice.

Now, I am going through the grueling process of making sure all the cover art is correct as well as the album, artist, etc. is correct. That is a big downside of the CDDB library. There are some major inaccuracies.

I also upgraded to iTunes Plus (I guess 256K is better than 128K

). I wish iTunes would go lossless. There has been a lot of chatter but no action.

what do you mean by i-tunes going lossless? i only ask because i have apple lossless files in my i-tunes already if thats what you mean

odin24 · 04-04-2009, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louhamilton

Yes and no.

AIFF, in addition to WAV, are considered uncompressed audio.

Lossless is actually a compression. The difference between lossy and lossless is that lossless audio preserves the original audio file by keeping the size to around 60% of the original as opposed to lossy formats such as MP3 which compress it to a very small file (5-15% of original file file).

FLAC, ALAC, and MPEG-4 ALS are all types of lossless audio typically associated with music files.

SACD, DVD-A, Blu-ray and HD-DVD uses different formats specific to their technology. SA-CD uses DSD (Direct Stream) and the others use MLP (M-Something--I forget Lossless Packaging).

To make things even more confusing there are dual formats as well. For example, Dolby and DTS are considered lossy, but I have DTS encoded WAV files where WAV are considered uncompressed. Some equipment doesn't know how to decode them and you just get static.

Not sure what ALE is, but if you mean ALAC (Apple Lossless) then AIFF will always be bigger since ALAC have some compression applied.

EDIT: ALE (Apple Lossless Encoder) is the same as ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec)

Excelllent explanation. BTW, MLP... Meridian Lossless Packing, used for DVD-A, like TrueHD on a DVD (audio only), up to 5.1, up to 9mb/s bit rate. TrueHD on a HDDVD/BD is capable of 7.1 channels, up to 18mb/s. The only way you will get even close to 18mb/s is if you have a track at 192kHz, 24 bit. A 96/24 TrueHD track comes close to 8mb/s.... which sounds awesome (Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds... Radio City).

Hammie · 04-04-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

what do you mean by i-tunes going lossless? i only ask because i have apple lossless files in my i-tunes already if thats what you mean

Sorry about the confusion. I meant that the iTunes Store sells lossless tracks not just the 'Plus' version of songs which are only 256k AAC files (Supposedly more efficient compression but still not much better than MP3, IMO).

And thanks odin for the further clarification of MLP.

Chevypower · 04-04-2009, 08:03 PM

our two work vehicles have iPod integration in the stereos, so potentially the iPod could sound as good as the original CD inside the CD slot.
When we first got our iPod Classic 80GB, I ripped everything using MP3 @ 320kbs. I wasn't happy with it at all. All our CDs took up about 10GB, and I felt like I wanted to utilize more of the capacity for higher quality. So I reripped all our CDs in Apple Lossless, and it sounded great. It took up just under half of the capacity. I was limited to programs I could bring the files in to, like Final Cut Pro. Editing programs might recognize some Apple Lossless songs, but not others. I tried a couple in WAV, but was disappointed I couldn't keep the artwork and other metadata. So I tried AIFF, and it was the best of everything. I could keep the artwork, the music would be totally uncompressed PCM, not lossless, I can import the music in to video editing programs. No compromises with AIFF. After buying more and more CDs, we have over 150 CDs and it all takes up about 90GB, so I am now over the limit for our iPod Classic 80GB, so I am looking forward to Apple releasing a 240GB iPod to replace their old 160GB.

Cisco in HD · 04-04-2009, 09:09 PM

Not too long ago I changed all my mp3 @ 192kbps to AAC @ 256kbps and there was a fuller sound to the music. Music sounded like it wasn't localized like it was coming out of my headphones, it just sounded like I had music playing in my ears, if that made any sense. So if I wanted to bump up the quality would you recommend AIFF? Or something else? I mainly to my iPod (80gb) in my car and through my iPhone. My only concern is the space on the phone (8gb).

Chevypower · 04-04-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cisco in HD

Not too long ago I changed all my mp3 @ 192kbps to AAC @ 256kbps and there was a fuller sound to the music. Music sounded like it wasn't localized like it was coming out of my headphones, it just sounded like I had music playing in my ears, if that made any sense. So if I wanted to bump up the quality would you recommend AIFF? Or something else? I mainly to my iPod (80gb) in my car and through my iPhone. My only concern is the space on the phone (8gb).

Yes, AIFF is the way to go... I also have an iPhone, i stick some of my favorite songs on it, and have all of my other music on my iPod. As I mentioned, I have run out of space to fit every song from every CD I have, to fit within the 80GB to sync to my iPod, I still rip every CD, I will just have to buy a larger capacity iPod to sync the entire collection. But I don't have to ever worry about the original CDs getting scratched because I stored them away and never touch them now.

Hammie · 04-05-2009, 03:14 AM

I wanted to go AIFF but chose ALAC because my wife has a 4GB Nano and I really did not want to limit her to so few songs. I have an 8GB Nano, but will wait to see what the next gen iPod disc size is. If it is over 200GB, I will probably jump on it, although I currently only have a 98GB library. I would love for them to come out with the iPhone ot iTouch over 100GB, though.

Galley · 04-05-2009, 03:11 PM

AIFF doesn't support tagging, just like WAV files, correct?

Chevypower · 04-05-2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galley

AIFF doesn't support tagging, just like WAV files, correct?

If tagging is what I think it is, then iTunes does tag AIFF files, but not WAV files.

Hammie · 04-05-2009, 06:36 PM

I just did a couple discs in AIFF to compare the difference. If by tagging, you mean, name, title, etc. I have all of them.

Can you further clarify what your definition of tagging is?

DigitalfreakNYC · 04-06-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louhamilton

I also upgraded to iTunes Plus (I guess 256K is better than 128K

). I wish iTunes would go lossless. There has been a lot of chatter but no action.

I wish Itunes would go lossless. I refuse to pay for something that's compressed.

They start selling wav files and I'm all over it.

bigred7078 · 05-23-2009, 07:26 AM

Yeah i recently switched all my FLAC files to ALAC. I got an apple TV (which i love), and needed to utilize it as my music streamer. It cannot play FLAC files so hence the reason for the switch.

It took forever but i finally have my 450gb's of music switched over.

There is nothing like having all your music available at your fingertips.

04-03-2009, 12:50 PM	#1
krazeyeyez Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Dec 2007 Location:the guy on the couch Home Theater Gallery:18 Blu-ray collection:287 Blu-ray reviews:4	Lossless Ok so are these lossless files the same as say truehd/DTSma, as in lossless is lossless? i am speaking of..... apple lossless encoder AIFF and what ever the pc one is, like WAVlossless i think and i think FLAC may be one as well i would think all would be equal, and being on an apple i can only compare the ALE vs AIFF and am curious if they are both lossless why the AIFF takes more space. Is it just an older form of lossless compression, or just not as effective. What do you audiophiles use who can't stand what an mp3 does to your music?

04-03-2009, 03:18 PM	#2
Hammie Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:May 2008 Location:Washington, DC Metro Home Theater Gallery:53 Blu-ray collection:545 DVD collection:12 Trading Score:12	Yes and no. AIFF, in addition to WAV, are considered uncompressed audio. Lossless is actually a compression. The difference between lossy and lossless is that lossless audio preserves the original audio file by keeping the size to around 60% of the original as opposed to lossy formats such as MP3 which compress it to a very small file (5-15% of original file file). FLAC, ALAC, and MPEG-4 ALS are all types of lossless audio typically associated with music files. SACD, DVD-A, Blu-ray and HD-DVD uses different formats specific to their technology. SA-CD uses DSD (Direct Stream) and the others use MLP (M-Something--I forget Lossless Packaging). To make things even more confusing there are dual formats as well. For example, Dolby and DTS are considered lossy, but I have DTS encoded WAV files where WAV are considered uncompressed. Some equipment doesn't know how to decode them and you just get static. Not sure what ALE is, but if you mean ALAC (Apple Lossless) then AIFF will always be bigger since ALAC have some compression applied. EDIT: ALE (Apple Lossless Encoder) is the same as ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec) Last edited by Hammie; 04-03-2009 at 04:28 PM.

04-03-2009, 11:40 PM	#5
Hammie Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:May 2008 Location:Washington, DC Metro Home Theater Gallery:53 Blu-ray collection:545 DVD collection:12 Trading Score:12	Glad it was helpful. I also just re-did my CD collection. I went from 30GB to 96GB of disc space. I found that a lot of my discs have some major scratches. I wish I could get a new replacement disc on a few of my favorites. That would be nice. Now, I am going through the grueling process of making sure all the cover art is correct as well as the album, artist, etc. is correct. That is a big downside of the CDDB library. There are some major inaccuracies. I also upgraded to iTunes Plus (I guess 256K is better than 128K ). I wish iTunes would go lossless. There has been a lot of chatter but no action. Last edited by Hammie; 04-03-2009 at 11:43 PM.

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04-03-2009, 06:58 PM	#3
bhampton Blu-ray Count Member since:Aug 2007 4K collection:981 Blu-ray collection:2537 DVD collection:67 Blu-ray reviews: 6 Trading Score:18	Nice writeup. I recently nuke and paved my Itunes and re-riped all my stuff with Apple Lossless. I couldn't get over the idea that the sound could be inferior to the CD version so I had no interest in the ipod till I did this. It still get's ignored but I'll be traveling soon and then I think it will shine. -Brian

04-04-2009, 08:03 PM	#9
Chevypower Special Member Member since:Feb 2008	our two work vehicles have iPod integration in the stereos, so potentially the iPod could sound as good as the original CD inside the CD slot. When we first got our iPod Classic 80GB, I ripped everything using MP3 @ 320kbs. I wasn't happy with it at all. All our CDs took up about 10GB, and I felt like I wanted to utilize more of the capacity for higher quality. So I reripped all our CDs in Apple Lossless, and it sounded great. It took up just under half of the capacity. I was limited to programs I could bring the files in to, like Final Cut Pro. Editing programs might recognize some Apple Lossless songs, but not others. I tried a couple in WAV, but was disappointed I couldn't keep the artwork and other metadata. So I tried AIFF, and it was the best of everything. I could keep the artwork, the music would be totally uncompressed PCM, not lossless, I can import the music in to video editing programs. No compromises with AIFF. After buying more and more CDs, we have over 150 CDs and it all takes up about 90GB, so I am now over the limit for our iPod Classic 80GB, so I am looking forward to Apple releasing a 240GB iPod to replace their old 160GB.

04-04-2009, 09:09 PM	#10
Cisco in HD Senior Member Member since:Jan 2009 Location:West Palm Beach, FL Trading Score:3	Not too long ago I changed all my mp3 @ 192kbps to AAC @ 256kbps and there was a fuller sound to the music. Music sounded like it wasn't localized like it was coming out of my headphones, it just sounded like I had music playing in my ears, if that made any sense. So if I wanted to bump up the quality would you recommend AIFF? Or something else? I mainly to my iPod (80gb) in my car and through my iPhone. My only concern is the space on the phone (8gb).

04-05-2009, 03:14 AM	#12
Hammie Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:May 2008 Location:Washington, DC Metro Home Theater Gallery:53 Blu-ray collection:545 DVD collection:12 Trading Score:12	I wanted to go AIFF but chose ALAC because my wife has a 4GB Nano and I really did not want to limit her to so few songs. I have an 8GB Nano, but will wait to see what the next gen iPod disc size is. If it is over 200GB, I will probably jump on it, although I currently only have a 98GB library. I would love for them to come out with the iPhone ot iTouch over 100GB, though.

04-05-2009, 03:11 PM	#13
Galley Power Member Member since:Apr 2007 Location:Greenville, SC 4K collection:117 Blu-ray collection:634 DVD collection:41 Digital collection:1 Blu-ray reviews:4 Trading Score:7	AIFF doesn't support tagging, just like WAV files, correct?

04-05-2009, 06:36 PM	#15
Hammie Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:May 2008 Location:Washington, DC Metro Home Theater Gallery:53 Blu-ray collection:545 DVD collection:12 Trading Score:12	I just did a couple discs in AIFF to compare the difference. If by tagging, you mean, name, title, etc. I have all of them. Can you further clarify what your definition of tagging is?

05-23-2009, 07:26 AM	#17
bigred7078 Special Member Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:May 2009 Location:Charlotte, NC Home Theater Gallery:29 Blu-ray collection:55 Trading Score:1	Yeah i recently switched all my FLAC files to ALAC. I got an apple TV (which i love), and needed to utilize it as my music streamer. It cannot play FLAC files so hence the reason for the switch. It took forever but i finally have my 450gb's of music switched over. There is nothing like having all your music available at your fingertips.

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