Receivers, amps & pre-amps?

[camper]

I'm no audio expert, and I'm planning (on-paper) a home theater project for the next couple years. Along with that is looking at equipment and trying to get an idea as to what is needed.

I'm confused with the relation between recievers, amps & pre-amps. I was originally planning on just a receiver (a really good one), but I notice a lot of amps & pre-amps being used in a lot of people's setups.

My questions are:

1 - Are they (amps & pre-amps) necessary?
2 - If so, at what point are they required?

I'm looking at using a large screen TV (62" minimum) instead of a projector, but I'm not ruling out a projector either. I want high quality sound even though I'm not expecting to spend 10k+ per speaker. To give an idea on budget, I'm looking at about 12-18k on equipment alone. While I'm of the opinion that spending less than that would be nice that budget isn't set in stone either....if spending 22k will give me an infinitely better system that will last 15-20 years (with maintenance) instead of the 8-10 year life of a 10k system I'll lean towards the higher end. Still, I don't want to spend 5k on an amp/pre-amp (in addition to the receiver) if I'm not going to hear any major difference on say...Polk LSi's.

I'm not interested in whole house audio either, by the way.

If anyone can give SOME guidance or give me a good place to go read to get the info that would be WAY awesome.

camper

[kpkelley]

The benefit of seperates in a home theatre setting is two-fold. Firstly, because of the seperation of components between two cases their is greater shielding which results in less distortion of the audio signal. Secondly, their is more power being driven to each speaker constantly and at peak times.

A receiver has a single power supply that must power all your channels and all the video and audio decoding, upscaling, transferring, etc. An amplifier has a larger power supply(or several) that only powers the speakers. What this means is that you can supply more power to your speakers on both a constant and peak basis. This results in a more consistent sound field without any power loss to the speakers even at much higher volumes.

There are very good receivers with lots of power that can power a home theatre in medium size rooms, but the larger the room the more power demanded. Considering that you were looking at spending up to 20K on a system you should seriously consider a seperated system. Their are solutions for all budgets. Sites like Emotiva and Outlaw audio have excellent cost-effective solutions for those looking to get into seperates while manufacturers like Krell or Classe have set-ups that exceed your entire budget.

I would suggest going to your local home theatre or audiophile store and listen to both seperates and high-end receivers to see which it is that would work best for you.

[kpkelley]

http://www.emotiva.com/
http://www.outlawaudio.com/
http://www.krellonline.com/
http://www.rotel.com/
http://www.sherbourn.com/
http://www.adcom.com/
http://www.anthemav.com/

[Slec]

There are others out there that know quite a bit more than I but:

Your receiver can act as your pre/pro or you can buy a separate unit. The AVR would decode the signal and act as a preamp sending the signal to your separate ampification before going to the speakers (kpkelly did a great job of describing that part of the process) via the preouts.

The other option would be to also get a separate processor to decode formats and send out to the amp.

[Slec]

and to build on kpkelly's post:

If you look at benchmark tests on AVR's, they deliver good power to 2 channels, but there is significant drop off as you move to 5 and 7 channels. As kpk mentioned, separate amplification will give you strong clean sound to all channels with plenty in reserves for dynamics.

[camper]

Thanks for the quick answers.

Couple follow ups....if the tower speakers are individually powered, does the benefit of the amp begin to fade? Also, what is the role of the pre-amp...does that take the place of a receiver if a seperate amp is used? Or, is a receiver still needed?

I'm getting the impression that you go with a receiver or you go with an amp & pre-amp...but I want to be positive that's right. I'm really liking the Denon AVP-A1HDCI but I don't want to overkill either.

Also, is it better to have a reciever & amp, or a pre-amp & amp?

Thanks guys.

camper

[Slec]

Originally Posted by camper

Couple follow ups....if the tower speakers are individually powered, does the benefit of the amp begin to fade? Also, what is the role of the pre-amp...does that take the place of a receiver if a seperate amp is used? Or, is a receiver still needed?

AVR's act as processors and preamps. You can also get dedicated pre/pros. In a dedicated (separate) pre/pro, all of the power goes to decoding, whereas in an AVR it goes to many different things (upscaling in the receiver, powering speakers, decoding the signal etc)

I'm getting the impression that you go with a receiver or you go with an amp & pre-amp...but I want to be positive that's right. I'm really liking the Denon AVP-A1HDCI but I don't want to overkill either.

You can also go AVR>amp. Which is best will depend on the quality of the gear you decide on. I'll let those more in the know comment on your particular choice. A high quality AVR might be a better option than a low quality separate pre/pro. Finding the right mix within your budget is part of the fun!

edit: and since your in the planning stages, make sure you have a dedicated circuit for your home theater

[kpkelley]

This analogy is a bit convoluted, but it's the best I could come up with.

You have three bikes, one is a mountain bike, one is a road bike, and one is an all-terrain bike. The mountain bike and road bike are specialized for their specific conditions, smooth road or rocky terrain. The all-terrain bike has shocks for off-roading, but they aren't as good the ones in the mountain bike. The road bike has specialized thin tires for less weight and more rpms, while the all-terrain bike has wheels that are average size, and the mountain bike has big wide tires with lots of ridges so they can maintain traction in muddy terrain.

Similarly a pre/pro and amp system specializes it's components with high quality parts to do their specific jobs as best as possible. The receiver needs to be all things for everybody, and so can do everything well, but nothing great. The dac's in the processor will be as good or better than most receivers and they will be more heavily shielded per channel so there is less ghosting and transferance. The amplifier will also be more heavily shielded than the receiver resulting in a tighter sound field.

Whether or not you get a receiver or a pre/pro comes down to the question of amplification. If you have seven speakers you could get a 5-channel amp and power the rears with the receiver, or a 7-channel amp to power them all, or a 5-channel amp and a 2-channel amp for more power to the front left and right speakers.

[camper]

The analogy definitely helps, thanks.

Next bit is to figure out an amp/pre-amp combo and that will defintiely take some reasearch. But at least I've got a tighter circle to research, so taht is a good thing

thanks again,

camper

[Intamin]

Camper, I think this thread should definitely be of use for you when deciding on pre/pros, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940065

Good luck with the amp decision. There are a lot of brands and a lot of high quality amps.

[petenad]

Don't forget to look North of the border as your dollar is worth more here now and there's alot of good companies
To add to MrKelly's list:
http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/News2.html

[Big Daddy]

Advantages of Receivers

• A receiver consists of three or four components: preamp/processor (all the switching and processing are done there), Tuner (AM/FM radio), and an Amplifier.
• Receivers are convenient.
• Receivers are affordable.
• Receivers take less space

Disadvantages of Receivers

• In a receiver, the three components above share the same power supply, circuits, etc.
• Many compromises in the design of receivers.
• Receivers have less power than amplifiers (less than 150 watts).
• Receivers may not be able to drive high quality, large, and inefficient speakers.
• Most receivers may have difficulty driving 4 ohm speakers.
• Audio quality is not as good as separates.
• They have less headroom and may clip faster.
• May generate too much heat.

Advantages of Amplifiers

• Amplifiers have their own higher-quality power supply.
• Amps do not share their parts with any other components.
• Generally speaking, amplifiers have more wattage. Some can handle 500 watts or more.
• They have a lot more headroom.
• They can easily drive 4 ohm speakers.
• Audio quality is much better.
• Can mix and match with speakers and other components.
• You can brag more.

Disadvantage of Amplifiers

• They are less convenient.
• You normally need three components to do the job of one receiver.
• They can take more space.
• They are more expensive.
• Your electric bill may run higher.
• Setup can be more complex.

My Denon receiver is a high-end receiver. However, I only use the pre/pro portion of the receiver. I use separate amplifiers to drive all my speakers. Even my subwoofers are passive and are driven by separate amplifiers. I have done some testing with receivers versus amplifiers. The audio quality of the amplifiers is significantly better. They have never clipped, but I have blown a few speakers.

See Amplifier Manufacturers for a complete list of separate amps. It has a sticky under Pre/Pro Systems & Separates.

[Slec]

Big Daddy = king of those with more knowledge than I

although you were a bit slow on joining us , I knew Pops would be here soon enough to spread the knowledge

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Slec

Big Daddy = king of those with more knowledge than I

although you were a bit slow on joining us , I knew Pops would be here soon enough to spread the knowledge

Big Daddy has to eat and sleep every once in a while. In addition, if I spend too much time in front of the computer, Mrs. Big Daddy will send me to my room.

[camper]

Just saw the new posts, thanks guys. This kind of stuff helps. Like I said in the first post, I'm still in research mode. I like the quality I get right now but when I go to the actual home theater I don't want to under purchase equipment...but I also don't want to go overboard either.

I don't care about the tuner, since it's for movies only. Still, I like the option to expand. I'm now leaning toward the preamp/processor & amp configuration.

Thanks,

Camper

[primaz]

Originally Posted by camper

I'm no audio expert, and I'm planning (on-paper) a home theater project for the next couple years. Along with that is looking at equipment and trying to get an idea as to what is needed.

I'm confused with the relation between recievers, amps & pre-amps. I was originally planning on just a receiver (a really good one), but I notice a lot of amps & pre-amps being used in a lot of people's setups.

My questions are:

1 - Are they (amps & pre-amps) necessary?
2 - If so, at what point are they required?

I'm looking at using a large screen TV (62" minimum) instead of a projector, but I'm not ruling out a projector either. I want high quality sound even though I'm not expecting to spend 10k+ per speaker. To give an idea on budget, I'm looking at about 12-18k on equipment alone. While I'm of the opinion that spending less than that would be nice that budget isn't set in stone either....if spending 22k will give me an infinitely better system that will last 15-20 years (with maintenance) instead of the 8-10 year life of a 10k system I'll lean towards the higher end. Still, I don't want to spend 5k on an amp/pre-amp (in addition to the receiver) if I'm not going to hear any major difference on say...Polk LSi's.

I'm not interested in whole house audio either, by the way.

If anyone can give SOME guidance or give me a good place to go read to get the info that would be WAY awesome.

camper

I would definately get a front projector and right now I would say the Epson 6500 for $2700 is one of the best quality and value right now. I'd get a Dalite screen 7'to 10' depending on your room size, online which would be about $5-700 for a non motorized version so thats $3200 to $3400 for the display.

I would get tower speakers with a matching brand center channel, along with two other pairs of smaller speakers for the rest of the surround speakers. Full range speakers are very individual so my opinion may not match yours but I would probably allocate about $5000 to $6000 and my preference for a solid smooth natural speaker that sounds good no matter which model in their line up would be Canton made in Germany. More money should be spent on the speakers and I would not get Polks with your budget you have money to get something much better!

I would get two Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX 12" 350 watt powered subs for $600 each; thus about $1200 for the subs

I would get Outlaw Audio's new 997 non powered surround sound preamp for $1300, get their balanced output 7 channel amp that is 300 watts by 7 for $3000.

I'd get a Panasonic BD 80 blu ray player $400? Allow say $500 for good cables. Add another $1-2k depending on your opinion of the protection value for a power conditioner.

There you go $17-18K and I'd say that would be a great home theater system!