Receiver's Audio and HD Audio performance

[Srficat]

It is not looked very odd that all the new Receivers form the major companies (Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkio) that support HD audio, have a very poor audio output performance? (In comparison)

If I looked at the audio quality as precision in db numbers, I can say that:

The CD quality (Linearity = how much is direct line. Also quoted as THD) = -96db
In S/N the best machine can give you more of -100db

The DVD must have better performance -24bit 96KHz sampling rate, (DD DTS) but it compressed – I don't know how much?

On BD we have master quality it must be like SACD ~ -115DB. You can't get better performance because we are near the physical limit.

All the generic receivers has performance not better then THD=0.05%

It is = -66db – so we try to get -110db precise Audio with -66db output stage.
What do you think about it?

[Beta Man]

I think you lost me..... can you dumb it down for me?

[Srficat]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I think you lost me..... can you dumb it down for me?

why the receivers use otput stage with THD of 0.05% for playing audio input of THD of 0.0003%

like connecting BDP to 1927 (English TV) TV with mechnical scan and 50 TV lines

[s0nIc]

Originally Posted by Srficat

It is not looked very odd that all the new Receivers form the major companies (Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkio) that support HD audio, have a very poor audio output performance? (In comparison)

If I looked at the audio quality as precision in db numbers, I can say that:

The CD quality (Linearity = how much is direct line. Also quoted as THD) = -96db
In S/N the best machine can give you more of -100db

The DVD must have better performance -24bit 96KHz sampling rate, (DD DTS) but it compressed – I don't know how much?

On BD we have master quality it must be like SACD ~ -115DB. You can't get better performance because we are near the physical limit.

All the generic receivers has performance not better then THD=0.05%

It is = -66db – so we try to get -110db precise Audio with -66db output stage.
What do you think about it?

What did he say????

[crackinhedz]

not sure I understand myself...but taking a wild stab at it:

Digital to Analog Conversion process?

[Siri]

[Srficat]

I tried to ask why, in generic receivers, the industry combine for us Hi End audio source like DTS HD with state of the art D/A and DSP and use very poor output stage, some 100~1000 times worth?

[Squozen]

Simple.

Cost.

Why do you think the Onkyo 605 and 606 receivers are so popular? It's not because of their astounding audio performance (although they are good for the money). It's because they are cheap.

If you want excellent specifications, and I'm talking truly state of the art, expect to pay no less than $10k for your processing alone, and then add another $40k for 5 channels of high-end amplification.

What you can get for $500-2000 in a home receiver these days is truly incredible (my current Yamaha does so much more than my old DSP-A1, and cost me half as much), but manufacturers must cut corners to do so. Obviously, they are choosing the right corners as nobody is complaining, except for those combing over the spec sheets.

edit: Regarding the 0.05% THD, the manufacturers are saying they'll hit (say) 100W with 0.05% THD, they're not saying that they are outputting with 0.05% THD all the time. As you lower the power output, THD drops. Most of the time, when you're coasting along at a couple of watts per channel, THD would be nearly unmeasurable.

For superb THD figures, I suggest buying 5 Krell Evolution One mono power amplifiers. Each one is capable of outputting 450W into 8 ohms with under 0.01% THD. Small issue though, they cost around $25,000 each.

[jeff92k7]

You're getting caught up in too many spec sheets. You must realize that 0db is impossible to acheive, no matter how much acoustic treatment you put in your room. Typical background noise in an quiet house is anywhere from 25-40db. An average office is usually between 40 and 65db. The human pain threshold averages around 120db.

So in a quiet house with 30db background noise and a top limit of 120db, this only leaves you 90db of dynamic range. In reality, most houses are closer to 40db.

Pretty much, anything over a 90db S/N ratio is not going to be noticeable outside of a specially designed testing lab. Just because a spec sheet says that a particular piece of equipment has a greater S/N ratio, doesn't mean you or I will ever be able to take full advantage of it.

You'll have to explain to me how your THD numbers calculate into a 66db S/N ratio. I've always understood THD to be inaudible at levels lower than 0.1 percent and really more of a thing to put on spec sheets to confuse people and make them think that a meaningless number actually means something.

[Srficat]

Originally Posted by Squozen

Simple.

Cost.

Why do you think the Onkyo 605 and 606 receivers are so popular? It's not because of their astounding audio performance (although they are good for the money). It's because they are cheap.

If you want excellent specifications, and I'm talking truly state of the art, expect to pay no less than $10k for your processing alone, and then add another $40k for 5 channels of high-end amplification.

What you can get for $500-2000 in a home receiver these days is truly incredible (my current Yamaha does so much more than my old DSP-A1, and cost me half as much), but manufacturers must cut corners to do so. Obviously, they are choosing the right corners as nobody is complaining, except for those combing over the spec sheets.

edit: Regarding the 0.05% THD, the manufacturers are saying they'll hit (say) 100W with 0.05% THD, they're not saying that they are outputting with 0.05% THD all the time. As you lower the power output, THD drops. Most of the time, when you're coasting along at a couple of watts per channel, THD would be nearly unmeasurable.

For superb THD figures, I suggest buying 5 Krell Evolution One mono power amplifiers. Each one is capable of outputting 450W into 8 ohms with under 0.01% THD. Small issue though, they cost around $25,000 each.

see what Douglas Self (an English Audio engineer) say about that.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/dipa/dipa.htm

and if it so poor performance, we dont need DTS HD or 24bit audio, in receivers because we can't hear the benfit

[Srficat]

Originally Posted by jeff92k7

You're getting caught up in too many spec sheets. You must realize that 0db is impossible to acheive, no matter how much acoustic treatment you put in your room. Typical background noise in an quiet house is anywhere from 25-40db. An average office is usually between 40 and 65db. The human pain threshold averages around 120db.

So in a quiet house with 30db background noise and a top limit of 120db, this only leaves you 90db of dynamic range. In reality, most houses are closer to 40db.

Pretty much, anything over a 90db S/N ratio is not going to be noticeable outside of a specially designed testing lab. Just because a spec sheet says that a particular piece of equipment has a greater S/N ratio, doesn't mean you or I will ever be able to take full advantage of it.

You'll have to explain to me how your THD numbers calculate into a 66db S/N ratio. I've always understood THD to be inaudible at levels lower than 0.1 percent and really more of a thing to put on spec sheets to confuse people and make them think that a meaningless number actually means something.

with the db unit as ratio. I can easily put my AX4 volume to 0db with no signal, to hear the receiver backgrund noise. have a good day.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by Srficat

why the receivers use otput stage with THD of 0.05% for playing audio input of THD of 0.0003%

like connecting BDP to 1927 (English TV) TV with mechnical scan and 50 TV lines

Okaaay. Care to share which separate amps or receivers have a THD of 0.0003% or less? In real world applications that is pretty hard to achieve.

So, are you an engineer, or an actuary? I'm leaning toward actuary, but I won't rule out mechanical engineer.

[Rob J in WNY]

I think it's safe to say that Srficat's post is to mention that a multi-component home theater, performance will be limited by the "weakest link."

If, say, a component's S/N ratio is, for example, 66dB, then running that component's output through a receiver which produces better than 100dB S/N ratio will not improve on the 66dB passing through it. There will still be the audible noise floor at -66dB.

I think that's what the sentiment was...

[prerich]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

Okaaay. Care to share which separate amps or receivers have a THD of 0.0003% or less? In real world applications that is pretty hard to achieve.

So, are you an engineer, or an actuary? I'm leaning toward actuary, but I won't rule out mechanical engineer.

I don't know of any amps or receivers that low . My M-80 is 0.002% and my MX-830's are at 0.003% and my weakest link (powers my side surrounds) is my XM-6150 is at a disgraceful less than 0.2% this amp is also a pro-amp made for pro HT's and or 70v line output speakers in a multi-in ceiling speaker system.

[Squozen]

Originally Posted by Srficat

with the db unit as ratio. I can easily put my AX4 volume to 0db with no signal, to hear the receiver backgrund noise. have a good day.

With no signal, yes, that usually happens. Without a signal the amp will usually default to an analogue input, which is always noisier. Plus, you're probably not running in whatever the Pioneer's equivalent of 'Pure Direct' mode, so you're hearing leakage from the video processing circuits.

Want to eliminate those noises? Either spend a hell of a lot more money than the AX4 cost you, or drop back to a pure stereo amp (the 'straight wire with gain' principle). The performance you get for the money with a modern receiver is astounding, but all of the extra circuitry adds noise. If it was possible to do it cheaply, somebody would have.

Srficat, I have a question for you:

Do you like the sound of your receiver?

[Srficat]

Originally Posted by Squozen

With no signal, yes, that usually happens. Without a signal the amp will usually default to an analogue input, which is always noisier. Plus, you're probably not running in whatever the Pioneer's equivalent of 'Pure Direct' mode, so you're hearing leakage from the video processing circuits.

Want to eliminate those noises? Either spend a hell of a lot more money than the AX4 cost you, or drop back to a pure stereo amp (the 'straight wire with gain' principle). The performance you get for the money with a modern receiver is astounding, but all of the extra circuitry adds noise. If it was possible to do it cheaply, somebody would have.

Srficat, I have a question for you:

Do you like the sound of your receiver?

But that is with no LS load on the receiver, so I getbetter performance, to say nothing about room acustic and Epos LS.

[jeff92k7]

Originally Posted by Srficat

with the db unit as ratio. I can easily put my AX4 volume to 0db with no signal, to hear the receiver backgrund noise. have a good day.

But you brought up the translation of THD into a db scale (your -66db number that you still haven't explained how you calculated). I was simply pointing out that while the THD or S/N ratio of your amplifier/recevier may not be as good as some pieces of equipment, it doesn't really matter because the noise, in most cases, will be well below an audible range.

Then after saying I am confusing what you are saying by duscussing the S/N ratio, you proceed to immediately follow that sentence with one explaining how you can hear the noise level of your system when you turn it up all the way. I'm starting to wonder, based on your posts, if you are really asking serious questions or are just trying to confuse everyone with meaningless spec sheet numbers to try to make yourself feel more important. If so, you might want to consider that there are thousands of members on this forum and many of us do actually know what most of those spec sheet numbers truly mean.

If you read through some of my other posts, you'll see that I have worked with pro audio systems for nearly two decades and am pretty well read on what most of those numbers actually mean and which ones really don't mean anything. While pro audio is "make it loud" first and "quality" second, the principles of sound, electrical circuitry, and physics don't change when you move over to audiophile/home theater systems.

If I am "confusing" your question, then please explain your question(s) more clearly. I certainly am confused by your response to me saying that I'm confusing SPL with S/N ratios when my whole point was to prove, via an SPL scale, how S/N numbers actually relate to what you really hear and why you shouldn't be concerned about THD numbers.