Bad 180 Gram Vinyl copy?

[hc666]

Hey Everyone,

I have around 50 records... about 5 brand new 180 gram ones... anyway most of them sound great. New Alice Cooper, Metallica, Guns and Motley Crue come to mind!

I have the new Tesla - Forever More on 180 Gram and it sounds great most times and then when the music gets heavy or when the singer really screams it gets distorted.

I'm thinking it's probably just the production of the album... but I do have the cd as well and i don't hear the distortion. Is it possible I simply have a bad copy of the vinyl?

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated!

Using Pro-Ject Debut III/USB TT.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by hc666

I have the new Tesla - Forever More on 180 Gram and it sounds great most times and then when the music gets heavy or when the singer really screams it gets distorted.

I'm thinking it's probably just the production of the album... but I do have the cd as well and i don't hear the distortion. Is it possible I simply have a bad copy of the vinyl?

Does the distortion happen when the playback volume is low (that is, on loud passages that you're playing quietly)? If so that would rule out things like amplifier clipping or speaker damage. But if it doesn't occur at low playback volumes, then it could be that you're reaching your amps limits and it is clipping. In this case, back off the volume a bit and/ir get a more powerful amp!

Assuming the distortion does happen at low playback levels, it sounds like your cartridge might be mistracking, that is, your VTF might be too low. Check what tracking weight is recommended by the cartridge's manufacturer, and make sure that you're in that range. Slightly increase your VTF until either the distortion is eliminated, or you reach the recommended maximum (whatever happens first).

Also, make sure your stylus is clean and your cartridge is correctly aligned.

[hc666]

Originally Posted by richteer

Does the distortion happen when the playback volume is low (that is, on loud passages that you're playing quietly)? If so that would rule out things like amplifier clipping or speaker damage. But if it doesn't occur at low playback volumes, then it could be that you're reaching your amps limits and it is clipping. In this case, back off the volume a bit and/ir get a more powerful amp!

Assuming the distortion does happen at low playback levels, it sounds like your cartridge might be mistracking, that is, your VTF might be too low. Check what tracking weight is recommended by the cartridge's manufacturer, and make sure that you're in that range. Slightly increase your VTF until either the distortion is eliminated, or you reach the recommended maximum (whatever happens first).

Also, make sure your stylus is clean and your cartridge is correctly aligned.

Yes that's the thing, happening at low volumes. I guess that's why it concerned me. Only appears to happen with this one record.

I'll see what I can do with the VTF though Thanks for the response!!!

[hc666]

Ok I have increased the VTF to it's correct level, somehow I had it too low, the pro-ject manual is terrible and I rushed through it...

anyway, still hearing some distortion on the last songs of the one of my other 180g albums. The first few songs on each side sound beautiful and then slight distortion on the last songs.

Should I keep increasing the VTF until it goes away? Currently I am on 17.5(the setting it says I should use)mN for the cartridge the table came with. Does it hurt to go higher?

Just seems to be happening on this one LP now. Every other record I have sounded great even when my VTF was too low. Are the 180g alnums more sensitive to VTF?

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by hc666

anyway, still hearing some distortion on the last songs of the one of my other 180g albums. The first few songs on each side sound beautiful and then slight distortion on the last songs.

This sounds like inner groove distortion, though if that were the case, I'd think you'd hear it to some extent on all, or at least most of your records.

You could try aligning your cartridge with a cartridge alignment protractor. There are a number of free ones with brief explanations here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...tractors.shtml

[hc666]

Originally Posted by kefrank

This sounds like inner groove distortion, though if that were the case, I'd think you'd hear it to some extent on all, or at least most of your records.

You could try aligning your cartridge with a cartridge alignment protractor. There are a number of free ones with brief explanations here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...tractors.shtml

Yeah it's weird, just the last songs... when you listen to the whole side... it gradually just gets distorted as you get towards the end of each side on this one particular LP.

Driving me nuts lol

I will check this out! Thanks!

[hc666]

Another question...

I can't tell by looking... but what if this record was warped slightly? Would that cause distortion on the most inner songs? Would it be possible I wonder if that's all this is.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by hc666

anyway, still hearing some distortion on the last songs of the one of my other 180g albums. The first few songs on each side sound beautiful and then slight distortion on the last songs.

Should I keep increasing the VTF until it goes away? Currently I am on 17.5(the setting it says I should use)mN for the cartridge the table came with. Does it hurt to go higher?

No, provided you don't exceeed the maximum specified by the manufacturer.

Just seems to be happening on this one LP now. Every other record I have sounded great even when my VTF was too low. Are the 180g alnums more sensitive to VTF?

Nope, 180g records are not more sensitive to VTF.

You might be suffering from excessive tracing/tracking distortion due to a misaligned cartridge. End of sides are a bit more prone to distortion anyway, and if not aligned correctly, your cartridge might be exacerbating this. Double check your cartridge's alignment including VTA, and make sure your anti-skate is at the correct setting.

It could also be that your stylus is worn or damaged. Might be worth checking that out too.

One more thought: how are you connecting your TT to your receiver?

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by hc666

if this record was warped slightly

What's the issue with warped records Rich? What does that do to the sound and is there potential damage to the stylus (perhaps cartridge as well)?

John

[richteer]

Originally Posted by John72953

What's the issue with warped records Rich? What does that do to the sound and is there potential damage to the stylus (perhaps cartridge as well)?

John

Provided that the warp isn't severe enough to interfere with playing the record, I don't there's much risk of any damage. I guess some mistracking and skipping might occur if the VTF is low, or some suspension damage might occur if the warp is quite big. In these major examples, I probably wouldn't risk wiping out my cartridge by playing them...

From a sound quality perspective, I guess a bit of pitch instability over the warp would probably happen.

The bottom line is this: a nice thick flat slab of vinyl trumps warped vinyl any day! :-)

[Johnny Vinyl]

I've been lucky I suppose, as I've only rarely come across a warped disc in my collection. And that was many years ago. I suppose proper storage has had a lot to do with that and for the novice vinyl buyer this is a good point to bring up.

I store all of my LP's upright and relative snug to each eachother. Not so much that it becomes difficult to retrieve a fave recording, but enough so there is no leaning. I also make sure my LP storage cabinet is away from direct heat (baseboard heaters, radiators) and direct sunlight. I also replace the inner paper sleeves sometimes found with anti-static sleeves (I prefer the paper/plastic sleeves). I do not use plastic outer sleeves as I find I cannot read the LP spine through them (getting older and eyesight not as good any longer).

John

[hc666]

Originally Posted by richteer

No, provided you don't exceeed the maximum specified by the manufacturer.



Nope, 180g records are not more sensitive to VTF.

You might be suffering from excessive tracing/tracking distortion due to a misaligned cartridge. End of sides are a bit more prone to distortion anyway, and if not aligned correctly, your cartridge might be exacerbating this. Double check your cartridge's alignment including VTA, and make sure your anti-skate is at the correct setting.

It could also be that your stylus is worn or damaged. Might be worth checking that out too.

One more thought: how are you connecting your TT to your receiver?

Thank you for the detailed answer very appreciated!!!

The Debut III/USB has the Phone Box MM built in as a pre-amp. This is happening at all volumes so i don't think it's a pre-amp issue at all. So from there, into my receiver into the 'tape' connection via RCA's.

Ok so this TT doesn't have VTA of course lol contacting the dealer... i may go up the Xpression model and get VTA... from what I have read, it's good to have.

I would agree that the VTA is the issue, esp if it becomes more sensitive at the end of records.

The sound is amazaing, then as the record gets near the end, highs are distorted or when the music gets very busy with high end solos and stuff. Axl Rose's voice just goes from clear as a bell to distortion hell lol. I'm finding now that the Chinesse Democracy album, every last song, is really bad for this.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by hc666

Thank you for the detailed answer very appreciated!!!

The Debut III/USB has the Phone Box MM built in as a pre-amp. This is happening at all volumes so i don't think it's a pre-amp issue at all. So from there, into my receiver into the 'tape' connection via RCA's.

With a nod to The Princess Bride's Fezzik, it's not inconceivable! that your cartrdidge might be overloading the built in phono preamp. But that is pretty unlikely, especially if you're using the cartridge the TT came with.

Ok so this TT doesn't have VTA of course lol contacting the dealer... i may go up the Xpression model and get VTA... from what I have read, it's good to have.

I would agree that the VTA is the issue, esp if it becomes more sensitive at the end of records.

VTA and alignment (especially the latter). If you don't have a cartridge alignment protractor, get one pronto and make sure your cartrdige's alignment is spot on. You can't rely on the alignment being correct "out of the box", or being able to set it without a protractor.

The sound is amazaing, then as the record gets near the end, highs are distorted or when the music gets very busy with high end solos and stuff. Axl Rose's voice just goes from clear as a bell to distortion hell lol. I'm finding now that the Chinesse Democracy album, every last song, is really bad for this.

Hmm. It is possible that there's either a problem with your copy of this record, or that all vinyl copies of this record are suspect. You could either try exchanging the record or try it on someone else's hifi system. Is there anyone suitable near you?

[hc666]

Originally Posted by richteer

With a nod to The Princess Bride's Fezzik, it's not inconceivable! that your cartrdidge might be overloading the built in phono preamp. But that is pretty unlikely, especially if you're using the cartridge the TT came with.



VTA and alignment (especially the latter). If you don't have a cartridge alignment protractor, get one pronto and make sure your cartrdige's alignment is spot on. You can't rely on the alignment being correct "out of the box", or being able to set it without a protractor.



Hmm. It is possible that there's either a problem with your copy of this record, or that all vinyl copies of this record are suspect. You could either try exchanging the record or try it on someone else's hifi system. Is there anyone suitable near you?

Read alot of reviews and apparently the new Guns on vinyl is 'amazing' and better than the CD lol. And yeah no one else near me has the vinyl bug. But I could try bringing my copy to the audio store next time I go down to Halifax.

I'm thinking I need a protractor. Now that I am listening for issues, i can slightly tell some minor distortion on other albums at the end... the longer the album side, the more the issue... almost like it only happens when the arm reaches past a certain point towards the center of the album. Also, only seems to effect certain ranges.

Would you agree that is there was an alignment issue, it would get worse as you approach the end of the album?

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by hc666

Ok so this TT doesn't have VTA of course lol contacting the dealer... i may go up the Xpression model and get VTA... from what I have read, it's good to have.

You don't actually have to go up to the Xpression if you want adjustable VTA. The Music Hall MMF-2.2 (which is the turntable I have) is very similar to the Pro-ject Debut III, but has a different tonearm with adjustable VTA. It can be had for between $400 and $450, however it does not have a built-in phono preamp, so you'd have to add that to your cost as well.

Before you even consider another turntable though, I'd take the record in question to the dealer or to a friend's house and try it out on a turntable that you know is set up properly to see if it might just be an issue with the record itself.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by hc666

I'm thinking I need a protractor. Now that I am listening for issues, i can slightly tell some minor distortion on other albums at the end... the longer the album side, the more the issue... almost like it only happens when the arm reaches past a certain point towards the center of the album. Also, only seems to effect certain ranges.

Would you agree that is there was an alignment issue, it would get worse as you approach the end of the album?

Yes. That's inner groove distortion, my friend. Aligning your cartridge with a protractor should definitely help reduce it.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Check out this review of the Pro-ject X-pression, phono stage and speedbox.

John

[hc666]

Originally Posted by kefrank

Yes. That's inner groove distortion, my friend. Aligning your cartridge with a protractor should definitely help reduce it.

"Inner groove distortion"

Thanks man, I am relived to see this is an actual issue with many really long LPs... this is exactly what the new GnR is doing to me! I think Axl's voice escalates the issue as well. Probably why I only notice it on that record and not the others lol.

Thank you very much EVERYONE for your help

I will see what I can do to are-align the needle better for now. Since it's only annoying me on one record, I will live hehe. I was able to fix the other issues I was having by properly doing the GTF, earlier in the posts.

[Lawless100]

I have had the same issue with Death Magnetic, Chinese Democracy, Judas Priests Nostradamus and Disturbs Indestructible. All are double or triple vinyl with the exception of Death Magnetic which was mixed horribly any way so the CD sucks just as bad.
However, Megadeth's United Abominations, Alice Cooper's new album, Queensryche's Operation Mindecrime II, Led Zepplin's Mothership, David Gilmour On and Island, and WASP's Dominator (which is even a picture disc) sound mint!! No distortion even in the last measures of the last track!
I am using a Grado Platinum MC, and have also tried my AT440ML and both give the same results. The Megadeth and WASP album are the best comparison because they both have loud and heavy tracks at the end and I have no problems. Chinese Democracy and Indestructible both start hurting my ears half way through every side it just gets progressively worse as you get to the end of the side.
Does anyone know what the hell is going on?? Is it bad digital mixes that just sound even more shitty when put on vinyl?? I notice anything from the UK always sounds good while some of the US releases suffer from inner groove distortion and sibilance that has relegated $200 worth of new vinyl to the "do not listen" pile

is there an engineer in the house?!?!?!

[naturephoto1]

Unfortunately too many heavy vinyl and 1/2 speed masters of older recordings and very possibly new ones may not be mixed very well regardless of the claims. They may be excellent and quiet vinyl, but they just aren't nearly as well done as they should be. You can compare some original older recordings compared to the newer heavy vinyl and 1/2 speed masters and you can hear the difference, particularly with exceeding well recorded and pressed copies. Of course, the records need to be cleaned adequately.

Rich