Why surprise endings (or knowing them) shouldn't matter...

[Sussudio]

I posted this in another thread and decided the discussion could use its own. So...here's something I would challenge every member of this board--or at least anyone who reads this--to really ponder (regardless if I'm "right" or not):

I firmly believe that knowing a movie's ending ahead of time (whether you've guessed it or found out through some form) should not matter if the movie is well crafted and well executed. If discovering the ending ruins a movie, then I believe the movie was never that good to begin with since the weight of the movie should not rest solely in its ending (which is namely why I have a problem with the majority of ending plot twists IF a director plans his entire movie around one). If a final plot point is planned, developed, and implemented in a strong enough fashion, losing any sort of "shock value" should have very little impact in the grand scheme of the movie.

Before anyone immediately retorts with examples of "The Sixth Sense" or others, I would ask you to truly and thoroughly consider for a few moments what I am suggesting...you don't have to agree. That is all

[Freekman]

I agree with this 100%. A surprise ending is still impressive even if you know of it ahead of time. If the plot briefly alludes to the ending throughout the film and one can trace the ending back to these clues, then the film is successful. In fact, I find each successive viewing of a film with a surprise ending more enjoyable, as I can point out the small hints. Great point.

[Marcusarilius]

Agree 100%. Hearing about this or that in a movie I have yet to see, never ruins it for me. On the contrary, I look forward to seeing the scenes that Iv'e heard about.

[andyman1970]

I can kind of understand what you're saying, but there have been some movies that I thoroughly enjoyed and the surprise, twist ending made it that much better the first time seeing it, but after repeated viewing it losses it's effect because you already know what the big ending is. I'm not saying they aren't good movies any longer just that after the initial shock of the ending it just isn't the same. Like knowing the secret to The Crying Game. The first time I saw that I was like but after that it's like but over all it's still a good movie.

[P@t_Mtl]

I actualy agree, even knowing the ending or the surprise of the ending, if a movie is well crafted it won't matter.

True story here (I know many of you won't belive it but it is a true story)

I first saw Citizen Kane when I was 16 years old. I knew right from the start what the catch of the ending was or if I might say what was the secret "Rosebud". The clue is actualy right there at the start of the movie if you really pay attention to what the images are telling you. This did not prevent me for truly enjoying the movie, nor to keep watching it many times since.

[assydingo]

Knowing the ending shouldn't ruin a movie if it's made well. But I also wouldn't intentionally deprive someone of figuring it out for themselves.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

I first saw Citizen Kane when I was 16 years old. I knew right from the start what the catch of the ending was or if I might say what was the secret "Rosebud". The clue is actualy right there at the start of the movie if you really pay attention to what the images are telling you. This did not prevent me for truly enjoying the movie, nor to keep watching it many times since.

A Peanuts strip (four or five of them, in fact, since it was one of Charles Schulz's favorites) had given it away for me, years before I even knew what the movie was--
I had the experience of taking someone to see it who didn't know the ending, and while it wasn't a blinding shock, it did connect to the beginning enough to "...OHHhhhh! " the basic theme of the movie.

OTOH, I remember the studio that released "Jacob's Ladder' hyping their "shocking surprise ending" and the Village-like audience reaction of "That's the ending?--We paid ten bucks to find out

[Show spoiler]you read 'An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge' too??"

...Yeah, you're freakin' right we 'wouldn't have guessed' that one! "
Like "Village", I didn't bother with "Ladder" in theaters at the time, since I figured, well, the Internet saves ten bucks. But watching it on video later, it actually plays better having a slight hint of what all the weirdo artsy shots and Danny Aiello's character are all supposed to be about.

[surfdude12]

i agree, but would go even further and say that whether knowing the ending matters in the enjoyment of the film is even more dependent on the person than the film. in other words, a great film which is great, independent of its ending, could still be loved or hated by 2 different people. some people look for and appreciate the journey, while others obsess over the destination, irrespective of how beautiful of a journey they're taken on. i think its more dependent on the person (are they even capable of appreciating a great journey? or does their obsession over the destination block that out?) than the movie, but agree that the movie plays a big role.

[Sussudio]

Lots of good responses in here already and I think everyone has made some valid points, some of which that go in the opposite direction of my thinking I find particularly thought provoking, and some of which I don't necessarily agree with, but there's nothing wrong with that . Just in case there in any confusion with this, I would like to add that I don't necessarily think that integrating plot twists in movies weakens the story...only that knowing them beforehand (namely in regards to twist endings, or any endings for that matter) shouldn't have a drastic effect on an entire movie if it is well made...THAT'S my main point.

[jhiggy23]

Originally Posted by surfdude12

i agree, but would go even further and say that whether knowing the ending matters in the enjoyment of the film is even more dependent on the person than the film. in other words, a great film which is great, independent of its ending, could still be loved or hated by 2 different people. some people look for and appreciate the journey, while others obsess over the destination, irrespective of how beautiful of a journey they're taken on. i think its more dependent on the person (are they even capable of appreciating a great journey? or does their obsession over the destination block that out?) than the movie, but agree that the movie plays a big role.

as always, well-written and insightful.

[jadedeath]

I gotta disagree with you here Sus.

For me, if there is a twist ending, it could go either way.

For example {yeah I know we're not supposed to use the Sixth Sense} if I had known the ending from the beginning, it would have ruined it completely for me.

I would have been looking for things that I didn't catch at my first viewing {which I did pick up on in my second viewing} and that {I feel} would have changed the way I went into the movie and how I viewed it afterwards.

And it's not just with twist endings, I think that most movies should be gone into with a clean slate and having the viewer not know what ultimately happens. That way the viewer can make up his/her own mind for themselves.

Logan

[jasonicus]

Originally Posted by jadedeath

I gotta disagree with you here Sus.

For me, if there is a twist ending, it could go either way.

For example {yeah I know we're not supposed to use the Sixth Sense} if I had known the ending from the beginning, it would have ruined it completely for me.

I would have been looking for things that I didn't catch at my first viewing {which I did pick up on in my second viewing} and that {I feel} would have changed the way I went into the movie and how I viewed it afterwards.

And it's not just with twist endings, I think that most movies should be gone into with a clean slate and having the viewer not know what ultimately happens. That way the viewer can make up his/her own mind for themselves.

Logan

I agree. When my wife and I saw Identity, some woman blurted out the ending before we went in to see it. She heard it, but I didn't. It ruined the whole film for her. Certain films I can see can be ruined by knowing the ending. That said, there are plenty of films that are so formulaic, knowing the ending won't matter.

[masoud90]

Agree 100%.

[vegeta88]

I think movies based on real events can sort of fit into this category. An decently educated person knows the ending to these movies before they come out; for instance, The Alamo. I knew pretty much every major event in that movie but I still thoroughly enjoyed it; the same with Public Enemies and 300. I saw the ending of Saving Private Ryan well before seeing the whole film and the ending enticed me to see the rest.

Fight Club is probably one of the more famous "twist" movies (regardless of what you may think of it) and I still love watching the pivotal scene but only AFTER watching everything that leads up to it, the build up is superbly done IMO.

EDIT: There are also some movies that only have one hook and that is for people to see the 'twist' or to see the monster or to see the decision made that the trailer leads up to. Those are bad movies IO, they cannot market on being a good movie, only on people wanting to see the ending.

[Foggy]

I watched The Usual Suspects a while ago, and I already knew how it was gonna end, and to be honest, I did think knowing the ending did spoil the movie for me, I still respect it and think it was great, but I never got the full effect the ending was supposed to give.

[GOAT]

It might not ruin the film for me but it may take away some excitement pending on the film. On first viewings I prefer to watch the story progress until the credits and not know any of what is going to happen. Obviously on a second film I know the ending and that is fine as it allows me time to check the film for hints on the ending (Usual Suspects).

So while it may not RUIN it for me it is frustrating.

[Rob71]

I don't think knowing the twist ending ruins a film, but it does take something away from a film. I look at a good twist ending as almost as important to the story as good character development or good direction. Knowing the twist, or just knowing that there is one but not the twist itself takes me out of the narrative just a bit. Because on some level I'm not immersing myself in the story, I'm looking for clues.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Sussudio

I firmly believe that knowing a movie's ending ahead of time (whether you've guessed it or found out through some form) should not matter if the movie is well crafted and well executed.

The test for me is, can I watch it again and enjoy it? Seeing everything with the perspective of knowing the twist or surprise can alter the entire film - is that enjoyable?

It certainly didn't hurt some of my favorites - Blade Runner (a very enigmatic "surprise" there), Dark City, Usual Suspects, Forgotten, and many more. If the surprise is the only hook, it doesn't stand much of a chance, but with a well done film, it's not just a gimmick - it's a change in perspective.

[Freekman]

Knowing the ending doesn't change the quality of the film, but not knowing it can make it easier to realize how great a film is if you would have never expected it.

[jadedeath]

Originally Posted by jasonicus

I agree. When my wife and I saw Identity, some woman blurted out the ending before we went in to see it. She heard it, but I didn't. It ruined the whole film for her. Certain films I can see can be ruined by knowing the ending. That said, there are plenty of films that are so formulaic, knowing the ending won't matter.

Funny story about that movie: I was working at Blockbuster at the time, and they had actually printed some of the surprise ending in the booklet that they hand out that gives descriptions of the movies.

I informed the staff to warn customers about the 'misprint'.

Logan