Panel Resolution: 1080p vs 1080i vs 720p - is there a difference??

[lDlisturb3d]

Is there really a difference in 1080p / 1080i / 720p? I know allot of you will say yes to this because you have a 1080p or just recently upgraded. But my next question would be, they TV that you are comparing it with is it in the same tier? Very big difference if its not. I cant compare a vizo with a kuro right??? What do you think. I have a 720p plasma, its pretty outdated but i think the picture is superb! Check this review out http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdt...p-vs-720p.html

[Blaumann]

I can only speak from my experience with front projectors.

I used to have a Marantz VP-12S4 until this february, screen is two meters wide, seating distance is 1.8 screen width. The VP12S4 is a 720p DLP front projector from 2005, its historic MSRP was $10,999 (i bought it used for cheap though). Excellent projector, i loved it even though it was "only" 720p.

When the lamp was getting too dim, i checked out a few current 1080p projectors and ended up getting a Panasonic PT-AE4000E . It is better than the Marantz in every aspect. It's not only the increased resolution, but also color, contrast, smoothness and an overall more analog picture. The Panasonic has a MSRP of "only" $2,499, so it's actually a lower tier than the Marantz...

I used to think, that 720p and an old "high end" display would be great. But the advancements in display tech have been so huge over the last years, that i have moved on from that. YMMV

[ascendedcobra]

Huge difference between 720p and 1080p! Thats a lot of extra resolution its like the difference between 480p and 720p. Not only that but a 720p set is a budget set and wont likely be a strong performer in any area. Not to bash your gear though but you will notice it when you upgrade. It will be like going from a good picture to a breathtaking one.

[lDlisturb3d]

Originally Posted by ascendedcobra

Huge difference between 720p and 1080p! Thats a lot of extra resolution its like the difference between 480p and 720p. Not only that but a 720p set is a budget set and wont likely be a strong performer in any area. Not to bash your gear though but you will notice it when you upgrade. It will be like going from a good picture to a breathtaking one.

Well ive seen all types of 1080p tv and the only difference i can see is just the tv technology ie. Plasma, LCD, LEDLCD, DLP not the resolution.

[thePope666]

Originally Posted by deeman54

Well ive seen all types of 1080p tv and the only difference i can see is just the tv technology ie. Plasma, LCD, LEDLCD, DLP not the resolution.

what TV size have you been looking at? it's more noticeable with the bigger screen sizes.

If you don't notice a difference then might as well save your money until you do notice a difference..IMO

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by deeman54

But my next question would be, they TV that you are comparing it with is it in the same tier? Very big difference if its not. I cant compare a vizo with a kuro right???

This is exactly the crux of the argument here. Making blanket statements about panel resolution pertaining to overall picture quality it highly misleading and incorrect and you seem to understand this part.

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL...1080p would be important.
However panel resolution alone should be far down the list of considerations behind colour accuracy, video processing, ansi contrast ratio, minimum luminance levels, etc., etc., etc.

A perfect example would be the 2008 HDTV shootout done by Home Theater Mag where they pit 8 HDTV's against each other. All were top tier 1080p sets from various display technologies and manufacturers, one was the PDP-5080FD 720p plasma from Pioneer.

The Pioneer won.

[Alan Brown]

Screen size is primarily a function of viewing distance. The closer you get, the larger area of your field of vision the screen will occupy. As I type on my laptop, its 17" diagonal screen occupies close to the same amount of my field of view as the 80" wide front projection setup I watched 'Julie & Julia' on last night. Both displays are 1080p resolution.

The fundamental difference between 720p and 1080p/i is the resolution, of course:

1280 X 720= 921,600 pixels total
1920 X 1080= 2,073,600 pixels total

Will you actually see the difference? That depends on many factors, far too numerous to detail in this post. Chiefly, how close to the image are you, and what are the screen dimensions? On fixed pixel type displays, it's much easier to see the pixel map than on the old CRT tubes. Your TV is probably not technically 720p, but some version of XGA (???? X 768).

The article you linked to is full of problems. It refers to viewing lower resolution programs than Blu-ray Disc. This is the Blu-ray Forum. In the context of this community and discussion, most BD programs are mastered and encoded in 1920 X 1080p. Such programs will generally look their best on 1080P displays.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

[lDlisturb3d]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

This is exactly the crux of the argument here. Making blanket statements about panel resolution pertaining to overall picture quality it highly misleading and incorrect and you seem to understand this part.

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL...1080p would be important.
However panel resolution alone should be far down the list of considerations behind colour accuracy, video processing, ansi contrast ratio, minimum luminance levels, etc., etc., etc.

A perfect example would be the 2008 HDTV shootout done by Home Theater Mag where they pit 8 HDTV's against each other. All were top tier 1080p sets from various display technologies and manufacturers, one was the PDP-5080FD 720p plasma from Pioneer.

The Pioneer won.

Hey dont bite just asking a question for advice, but i think im just going to end up buying the optoma hd20

[Lincoln6Echo]

IMO, this debate always seems to come up from Plasma fanboys who feel the need to convince others that there's not that much difference between 1080p and 720p, so that they can continue to justify to themselves that they don't have a 1080p set themselves.

I think the main question here is viewing distance. 720p requires a longer viewing distance for comparable screen sizes, no? Just as it did with our old 480i CRT sets.

You can also say the more pixels you can pack in whatever space, the better PQ. This is why PQ on an old 13" or 19" 480i TV was sharper than the PQ on a 25/27/32/36" TV.

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by Lincoln6Echo

IMO, this debate always seems to come up from Plasma fanboys who feel the need to convince others that there's not that much difference between 1080p and 720p, so that they can continue to justify to themselves that they don't have a 1080p set themselves.

I think the main question here is viewing distance. 720p requires a longer viewing distance for comparable screen sizes, no? Just as it did with our old 480i CRT sets.

You can also say the more pixels you can pack in whatever space, the better PQ. This is why PQ on an old 13" or 19" 480i TV was sharper than the PQ on a 25/27/32/36" TV.

"Always?" Are there not also LCD "fanboys?" Are there not also both WXGA (720p+) and 1080p LCD panels, as well as plasmas? Dobyblue was correct in saying that resolution is not the sole, or even leading or dominant, factor in perceived picture quality.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by deeman54

Hey dont bite just asking a question for advice, but i think im just going to end up buying the optoma hd20

I was pointing out that you understood already what I was talking about...hence your comments on like panels. No biting taking place at all.

Originally Posted by Lincoln6Echo

IMO, this debate always seems to come up from Plasma fanboys who feel the need to convince others that there's not that much difference between 1080p and 720p, so that they can continue to justify to themselves that they don't have a 1080p set themselves.

I think the main question here is viewing distance. 720p requires a longer viewing distance for comparable screen sizes, no? Just as it did with our old 480i CRT sets.

You can also say the more pixels you can pack in whatever space, the better PQ. This is why PQ on an old 13" or 19" 480i TV was sharper than the PQ on a 25/27/32/36" TV.

That is absolutely ridiculous given that the majority of both plasma and LCD MODELS on the market are 1080p.

And if your comment was a slant directed at me...I happen to own a 32" 480i CRT.

The main question should not be viewing distance at all, given that viewing distance is only important when choosing panel resolution and if you're choosing a set based foremost on panel resolution then you are not shopping as an informed consumer.

I only pointed out the HTM 2008 article because it illustrates how panel resolution should not be by any means amongst the top criteria within which you should be shopping for your HDTV...as there are far more important issues. That goes just as well for someone who has already determined that they are only interested in an LCD panel...panel resolution should be far down the list behind the other performance factors of the sets they are looking at.

[ascendedcobra]

This whole thing is kind of silly. Why in the world wouldnt a capable 1080p set look better than a 720p set? More resolution = better picture. Does 70mm film look better than 35mm film? Yes because it has more resolution. Would anyone rather bluray players output 720p? I didnt think so.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by ascendedcobra

This whole thing is kind of silly. Why in the world wouldnt a capable 1080p set look better than a 720p set? More resolution = better picture. Does 70mm film look better than 35mm film? Yes because it has more resolution. Would anyone rather bluray players output 720p? I didnt think so.

I'm afraid you don't understand what makes a better picture.

If you think native panel resolution is the #1 deciding factor in what makes a better picture then you should just go ahead and pick up the cheapest 1080p panel you can find by Haier, Insignia, Sylvania, etc., etc., and be happy that you think you're getting a better picture than a 720p Sony/Pioneer/Samsung/Panasonic/Toshiba/etc.

If you are knowledgeable about what makes a better picture then you will have "panel resolution" far down your list behind ANSI contrast, motion resolution, colour accuracy, video processing, minimum luminance level, calibration options, etc., etc.

Your comment about 70mm film is irrelevant, because that is referring to the SOURCE.

[DangeRuss]

I'm my opinion.to answer the question you have to take in a couple of variables. Namely screen size and viewing distance. For myself I have a 42" 720p plasma panel in my office theater (viewing distance about 8 feet)and a 50" 1080p plasma panel in my main theater(viewing distance about 9 feet). To be honest there is very little difference in picture sharpness per say. Where I do see a difference is in the color renditions. My 50" panel is a THX certified unit, therefore reproducing colors better than my 42" set. Only blu-ray discs (converted from analog film) and some games are native 1080p sources. So when you take into consideration that cable/satellite/ota broadcasts are all limited to 720p/1080i (mostly up converted 480i source material) the extra resolution really doesn't come into play that much. That being said, in screen sizes above 50" and those front projectors with huge screens the extra resolution will be noticeable. I've almost forgot to mention the most important factor........The quality of the panel or projector makes a bigger impact on the viewing experience than the plain numbers......

Sorry for rambling on like that

[ascendedcobra]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I'm afraid you don't understand what makes a better picture.

If you think native panel resolution is the #1 deciding factor in what makes a better picture then you should just go ahead and pick up the cheapest 1080p panel you can find by Haier, Insignia, Sylvania, etc., etc., and be happy that you think you're getting a better picture than a 720p Sony/Pioneer/Samsung/Panasonic/Toshiba/etc.

If you are knowledgeable about what makes a better picture then you will have "panel resolution" far down your list behind ANSI contrast, motion resolution, colour accuracy, video processing, minimum luminance level, calibration options, etc., etc.

Your comment about 70mm film is irrelevant, because that is referring to the SOURCE.

Yeah well manufacturers will put all the best features in their top of the line 1080p sets. A 720p set will more than likely be weak in all areas. Even an old top of the line 720p set will not be able to compete with the new sets. I'll bet you could pick up a new samsung 40" 1080p set for $700-800 that would blow doors on any old high end 720p set. If panel resolution isnt important then why does everone want 4k? Is this a twilight zone episode or what? I mean people on a site committed to 1080p bluray disks arguing that 720p is just as good?!

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by ascendedcobra

Yeah well manufacturers will put all the best features in their top of the line 1080p sets. A 720p set will more than likely be weak in all areas. Even an old top of the line 720p set will not be able to compete with the new sets. I'll bet you could pick up a new samsung 40" 1080p set for $700-800 that would blow doors on any old high end 720p set. If panel resolution isnt important then why does everone want 4k? Is this a twilight zone episode or what? I mean people on a site committed to 1080p bluray disks arguing that 720p is just as good?!

Again your last sentence shows that you're not grasping the difference between source resolution and panel resolution and you are definitely wrong in your assesment of televisions, dramatics aside.

Sure a 1080p set within the same manufacturer's offerings will give you better picture quality in most cases than their own 720p offering, but that does not extend outside that one guideline. If you think it does then as I stated earlier, you should be lining up for the cheapest 1080p panel you can get your hands on. For me I know that there are far more important considerations with picture quality than panel resolution.

I would rather watch a 1080p blu-ray disc on my 480i CRT than watch it on some entry-level budget brand 1080p LCD. Did you even bother reading the shoot-out article?

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

• Samsung HL-T6187S LED DLP RPTV 1080p
• Sharp LC-52D64U LCD HDTV 1080p
• JVC LT-47X898 LCD HDTV 1080p
• Mitsubishi WD-57833 DLP RPTV 1080p
• Sony KDS-60A3000 SXRD HDTV 1080p
• Panasonic TH-50PZ750 Plasma HDTV 1080p
• Pioneer PDP-5080HD Plasma HDTV 720p

From your assesment the winner of this shoot-out should definitely be one of the 1080p sets right? Please, humour me and have a read.

As for your bet, keep your money, you'd lose that bet every time. That PDP-5080 will best just about all but a small handful of the absolute top tier sets on the market.

[lDlisturb3d]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

again your last sentence shows that you're not grasping the difference between source resolution and panel resolution and you are definitely wrong in your assesment of televisions, dramatics aside.

Sure a 1080p set within the same manufacturer's offerings will give you better picture quality in most cases than their own 720p offering, but that does not extend outside that one guideline. If you think it does then as i stated earlier, you should be lining up for the cheapest 1080p panel you can get your hands on. For me i know that there are far more important considerations with picture quality than panel resolution.

I would rather watch a 1080p blu-ray disc on my 480i crt than watch it on some entry-level budget brand 1080p lcd. Did you even bother reading the shoot-out article?

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

• samsung hl-t6187s led dlp rptv 1080p
• sharp lc-52d64u lcd hdtv 1080p
• jvc lt-47x898 lcd hdtv 1080p
• mitsubishi wd-57833 dlp rptv 1080p
• sony kds-60a3000 sxrd hdtv 1080p
• panasonic th-50pz750 plasma hdtv 1080p
• pioneer pdp-5080hd plasma hdtv 720p

from your assesment the winner of this shoot-out should definitely be one of the 1080p sets right? Please, humour me and have a read.

As for your bet, keep your money, you'd lose that bet every time. That pdp-5080 will best just about all but a small handful of the absolute top tier sets on the market.

+10

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by ascendedcobra

Yeah well manufacturers will put all the best features in their top of the line 1080p sets. A 720p set will more than likely be weak in all areas. Even an old top of the line 720p set will not be able to compete with the new sets. I'll bet you could pick up a new samsung 40" 1080p set for $700-800 that would blow doors on any old high end 720p set. If panel resolution isnt important then why does everone want 4k? Is this a twilight zone episode or what? I mean people on a site committed to 1080p bluray disks arguing that 720p is just as good?!

"Features" do not of themselves define image quality. Many features included by manufacturers have little to nothing to do with authentic image quality. Manufacturers emphasize what sells TVs, not what makes reference pictures. They stimulate and appeal to popular trends and uninformed perceptions in the marketplace. A "top of the line" 720p display can outperform a lower in the line 1080p set in many critical performance characteristics except native resolution. Even then, if the 1080p set has inferior circuit design (lower grade parts, inferior scaling, poorer motion rendering, incorrect color decoding, bad de-interlacing, etc., etc.), the incoming video signal may be distorted or altered before reaching the screen. The original detail in a program signal can become lost at many points along the signal path between the disc and the screen.

It sounds like your assertions and presumptions are only based on your observation, speculation, and intuition. A logical progression of thought may seem correct in and of itself, but if the logic is founded upon a faulty premise, the final conclusion will be wrong.

What does screen resolution have to do with image brightness?
What does screen resolution have to do with contrast/dynamic range?
What does screen resolution have to do with gray scale tracking?
What does screen resolution have to do with color decoding?
What does screen resolution have to do with color gamut?
What does screen resolution have to do with gamma?
What does screen resolution have to do with black level?
What does screen resolution have to do with motion rendering?
What does screen resolution have to do with frame rate conversion?
What does screen resolution have to do with bit depth preservation?
Etc,. etc., etc.

Panel resolution is important, it's just not as important as you presume. The most critical application of increased resolution is to accommodate increased screen/image size. Once again, that's relative to viewing distance.

It is obvious to anyone on this forum, who has a good foundation in imaging science principles and display industry practices, that you have made many faulty assumptions, conclusions, and assertions about picture quality. You would be wise to do quite a bit more homework before making allusions to others not having a firm grasp of reality.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

[lDlisturb3d]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

"Features" do not of themselves define image quality. Many features included by manufacturers have little to nothing to do with authentic image quality. Manufacturers emphasize what sells TVs, not what makes reference pictures. They stimulate and appeal to popular trends and uninformed perceptions in the marketplace. A "top of the line" 720p display can outperform a lower in the line 1080p set in many critical performance characteristics except native resolution. Even then, if the 1080p set has inferior circuit design (lower grade parts, inferior scaling, poorer motion rendering, incorrect color decoding, bad de-interlacing, etc., etc.), the incoming video signal may be distorted or altered before reaching the screen. The original detail in a program signal can become lost at many points along the signal path between the disc and the screen.

It sounds like your assertions and presumptions are only based on your observation, speculation, and intuition. A logical progression of thought may seem correct in and of itself, but if the logic is founded upon a faulty premise, the final conclusion will be wrong.

What does screen resolution have to do with image brightness?
What does screen resolution have to do with contrast/dynamic range?
What does screen resolution have to do with gray scale tracking?
What does screen resolution have to do with color decoding?
What does screen resolution have to do with color gamut?
What does screen resolution have to do with gamma?
What does screen resolution have to do with black level?
What does screen resolution have to do with motion rendering?
What does screen resolution have to do with frame rate conversion?
What does screen resolution have to do with bit depth preservation?
Etc,. etc., etc.

Panel resolution is important, it's just not as important as you presume. The most critical application of increased resolution is to accommodate increased screen/image size. Once again, that's relative to viewing distance.

It is obvious to anyone on this forum, who has a good foundation in imaging science principles and display industry practices, that you have made many faulty assumptions, conclusions, and assertions about picture quality. You would be wise to do quite a bit more homework before making allusions to others not having a firm grasp upon reality.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

This makes allot of sense

[Kryptonic]

It depends on the size of the display and viewing distance. If it's 52 inches or larger and you sit 6-8 feet, 1080p might make a difference. But at 42 inches and the same viewing distance, there's no difference. A 720p plasma will smoke a 1080p LCD in the same price and size range. It's more than just the resolution though. The brand and image processors are much more important.