Not Ready for Prime Time

[jsteinhauer]

This has probably been beaten to death.

Over the weekend, the lame trolling thread about firmware problems got me to thinking that HDM really is much to immature for mass adoption. The problem described is not unique to Blu-ray, but is a problem shared by HDDVD.

When I consider my family (J6P's) and my partners and colleagues (non-J6P's) at work, I really think that before HDM should be promoted to the masses, they really need to mature the technology to the point you can open the box, hook up the machine to your display with the included cord and play virtually all existing and upcoming applicable media.

I think it is beyond the average and above average guy to expect to spend hundreds (even two hundred) dollars on a machine and then need to continually keep abreast of such things like firmware and profile updates. Even most intelligent and well-educated individuals I know do not know how to add memory or cards to their personal computers or install wireless networks in their homes, which are things that I think are on a similar level to HD home theater applications at this point in their evolution.

For me, it's no more than a PITA to download software, burn a DVD and stick it into the machine. But I don't think most people even know what you are talking about when you say "burn it as an image to a DVD". And in the internet age when people don't even read books anymore, what's the chance that they will really follow the directions?

To pin this on Blu-ray is, however, very unfair, as I have had to update the firmware on my HDDVD player as many times, and it is no more or less simple, and the ethernet connection on the player, which is supposed to simplify this, is not real happy with my internet routers. I should not have to take the security measures of my home network out of the way to access the internet through a HDM player, and the average guy who is far less savvy than I (and I don't consider myself computer, AV or tech savvy) is going to experience nothing but frustration with the experience.

I often see posts and threads expressing frustration at Sony and other BD companies for not being more aggressive in mainstreaming their products, but it may be wisdom. I think there is a distinct possibility of backlash, if this stuff gets into the hands of too many people who can't even add a stick of memory to their PC.

What do you think?

[bluperch]

Heck, my brother called me yesterday asking how to convert "stuff on a CD" into MP3 so that he could create a big MP3 disc. He's just catching up to technology that's 10 years old. No way "normal" people will buy into this stuff until it settles down.

[mnelsoneorm]

Yeah, although I have to admit I don't have a standalone because I use a PS3, I think it would be best for all the companies making these machines to offer retailers firmware upgrade discs. They could just keep them in stock based on how many of the units they sold.....sort of estimate how many they "may" need taking into consideration that many users will still download it. I'm sure they could even sell the discs for $1 to recover the costs while not creating angry customers due to a high price for the disc. I don't know, just an idea on how to make this easier for Joe average.

[bluperch]

However, I'll add a caveat that the times they are a-changing. Thanks to Microsoft (yes, I really said that) people are much more used to using something that requires at least some tinkering ... i.e., the good ol' IBM-compatible personal computer. How many households have one? If they can get one of them to work, they can upgrade some firmware on their blu-ray player with little difficulty. And for many people, that just means giving one of us a call, "Son, can you come over and get my computer to work?" They'll do the same thing with high-def players.

I mean, isn't that what we're here for?

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

What do you think?

It's actually one of the main reasons I recommend the PS3 to people..it is mature from that perspective.

I don't really see how it could be much simpler for your average mainstream user...maybe some tweaks here and there but not much else.

The 40GB in particular now that the PS3 price point is lower.. and why I think keeping the wi-fi was far more important than the BC - to make it easier for those more mainstream users your talking about to adopt the format.

The PS3 simply greases the adoption wheel far more than any other player out there right now. Regardless of format. And I say that thinking about how my relatives would deal with any of this stuff.

[mnelsoneorm]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

It's actually one of the main reasons I recommend the PS3 to people..it is mature from that perspective.

I don't really see how it could be much simpler for your average mainstream user...maybe some tweaks here and there but not much else.

The 40GB in particular now that the PS3 price point is lower.. and why I think keeping the wi-fi was far more important than the BC - to make it easier for those more mainstream users your talking about to adopt the format.

The PS3 simply greases the adoption wheel far more than any other player out there right now. Regardless of format. And I say that thinking about how my relatives would deal with any of this stuff.

This is so true. I always tell people to get the PS3 even if they don't want it to play games. It is so easy to update. I can see how it might be a little challenging to get the wireless to work but these same people probably don't have the security turned on for their wireless networks anyway. I know if they had to connect to mine they would have a hard time even with the passphrase . But as the post above states, that's why they go to people like us and ask for help.

I think that in general, people are going to have to get used to doing firmware updates. We already need to do them on our computers, some phones, and now home entertainment products. The general population will adapt....just slowly. It took a long time for people to get used to email and the internet too but now they do it every day. I think at some point in the near future almost every electronic device will have firmware updates.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

It's actually one of the main reasons I recommend the PS3 to people..it is mature from that perspective.

I don't really see how it could be much simpler for your average mainstream user...maybe some tweaks here and there but not much else.

The 40GB in particular now that the PS3 price point is lower.. and why I think keeping the wi-fi was far more important than the BC - to make it easier for those more mainstream users your talking about to adopt the format.

The PS3 simply greases the adoption wheel far more than any other player out there right now. Regardless of format. And I say that thinking about how my relatives would deal with any of this stuff.

I agree and things in the home are converging...the PS3 is exactly suited to that. I only which it came in a "standard" package - i.e. a rectangular box so that it "fit" into my HT rack. It looks odd there now, but small price to pay for the functionality. If Sony were to make a "standard" one, I would pick it up in an instant.

[krisztoforo]

It's funny that back in the DVD world you couldn't make the manufacturers release firmware updates even if you tried (some even needed a class action suit to do so aka Pioneer), with Blu-Ray you basically can't even play the newest titles if you don't upgrade.

[mdm1699]

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

This has probably been beaten to death.


What do you think?

Get a PS3. OR

Get with the masses. If you apply your mode of thought to any medium or other aspects of life, you may as well live in a cave and never venture out. Medicine, Transportation, Technology, Engineering, Architecture, Fashion, Modern Societies, etc etc. They all started with baby steps, and stumbles. This is progress. You can either decide to spend the rest of your life observing, or take part in the process for once. We only live once.

[jsteinhauer]

Originally Posted by mdm1699

Get a PS3. OR

Get with the masses. If you apply your mode of thought to any medium or other aspects of life, you may as well live in a cave and never venture out. Medicine, Transportation, Technology, Engineering, Architecture, Fashion, Modern Societies, etc etc. They all started with baby steps, and stumbles. This is progress. You can either decide to spend the rest of your life observing, or take part in the process for once. We only live once.

You can add agriculture, too, but these aren't great comparisons. In all of these fields, it is the experts in the industry working with the advances. There is no need to get your hands dirty at the lay level. You fill the prescription and swallow the pill, the doctor worries about liability from wrecking your liver. The pilot flies the new jumbo jet. Remember, average guy used to be able to fix a car, not so anymore. I'll accept that we can all figure out how to wear the latest fashion in underwear or sneakers, but my mother, father and sister would not be able to keep up to date on firmware, and I live 12 hours away by road. I don't think any of them has a DVD burner on their PCs.

Baby steps are what I'm getting at. It's not ready for the big step.

For what it's worth, when an update is available for my A20, I receive a disk in the mail automatically. I don't need to be checking for updates, and I don't need to create a DVD. It would be nice, if Sony did this, and it's sort of disappointing that they don't, since it is probably the only aspect of my A20 that I find superior to my BD-S1.

[Striker]

Actually, with the last update Sony gave you the option to download and create your own DVD or via thier website you could have them send you a disc. Even though I have a dvd burner, I had them send me a disc and recieved the disc within 2 days. No issues with the update. For what it is worth, I am all in favor of the ability to update a piece of electronics to stay current with the latest Blu-Ray discs. There finally is a electronic device that is not out of date two months after you bought it! I do agree with some other people that it would be nice if any needed upgrades were included on the movies and you could select the option to "upgrade firmware now". Most likely a who is responsible if things go nuts after someone screwed up an update but who knows. I vote Blu keeps pushing the limit with new and better things and we all can upgrade as needed!

[WickyWoo]

Frankly, I believe that by the time we get through Christmas, all the major bugs will be shaken out of Blu-ray until we have some 2.0 titles that are accessing "live" events like a live Q&A commentary or something.

As long as the Koreans (LG/Samsung) get on the ball with the timely updates, things should be OK from here on out. By the time J6P starts buying them next christmas en masse, this will be fine

[mdm1699]

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

You can add agriculture, too, but these aren't great comparisons. In all of these fields, it is the experts in the industry working with the advances. There is no need to get your hands dirty at the lay level. You fill the prescription and swallow the pill, the doctor worries about liability from wrecking your liver. The pilot flies the new jumbo jet. Remember, average guy used to be able to fix a car, not so anymore. I'll accept that we can all figure out how to wear the latest fashion in underwear or sneakers, but my mother, father and sister would not be able to keep up to date on firmware, and I live 12 hours away by road. I don't think any of them has a DVD burner on their PCs.

Baby steps are what I'm getting at. It's not ready for the big step.

For what it's worth, when an update is available for my A20, I receive a disk in the mail automatically. I don't need to be checking for updates, and I don't need to create a DVD. It would be nice, if Sony did this, and it's sort of disappointing that they don't, since it is probably the only aspect of my A20 that I find superior to my BD-S1.

Agriculture as well. You missed the point. It is all about application. Utlimately, the consumer is the guinea pig. It is the consumer who tells the experts what works and what doesn't. When and how did we learn of the dangers from certain fertilizers and pesticides? It is about continuous improvement. Whether by trials, focus groups, or consumer application.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

This has probably been beaten to death.

Over the weekend, the lame trolling thread about firmware problems got me to thinking that HDM really is much to immature for mass adoption. The problem described is not unique to Blu-ray, but is a problem shared by HDDVD.

...

What do you think?

It's not really beaten to death. In some ways it is at the heart of the war strategies. When Toshiba practically gives away players at $98, a certain element chear the mass market pricing.

Problem is, as you say, none of these HDM players (even the PS/3) is yet a mass market product. They have glitches, they require periodic firmware updates. And both are works in progress, with new features being planned or added. They aren't plug and always play.

How will a newbie react to an A2 that is slow to load, skips, locks up, and has trouble playing some discs?

At least Blu-ray players seem, for the most part, to be stable and the the Blu-ray discs released are physically as close to perfect as one can expect (the firmware update required to play sometimes being a player/spec issue, not a physical disc issue).

Many of us would actually prefer a slower more traditional movement from early adopter (many of us here willing to put up with a lot for the coolness and quality) to the general and then mass adoption.

Also, it allows the quality-centric early adopter to imprint the expectations. Mass adoption happening too early could lead to OAR being abandoned because people don't like black bars. Or grain being filtered because the masses want a HD video look.

Gary

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

How will a newbie react to an A2 that is slow to load, skips, locks up, and has trouble playing some discs?

I ran into a guy in futureshop awhile back who was bouncing back and forth between the 360 elite+hddvd add on and the PS3 boxes...chatted him up since I could see his indecision ... and it turned out he had just returned an HD DVD player because of those exact problems.. he was now looking at a console hoping it would work better/be more reliable...what can I say he provided the perfect opening.. . I don't know what he bought but he was certainly better informed by the time I left.

[reiella]

Let's see, I have a few dvd players that can't play DVD-9s... Yea, that's fun heh.

Once we get a few more players, and have shifted to the standard of having the different players models number in the hundreds not the tens, the standard will shift from making sure disks on work on every player to making sure every disc works on the player.

[hardcore_canadian]

Originally Posted by mdm1699

Get a PS3. OR

Get with the masses. If you apply your mode of thought to any medium or other aspects of life, you may as well live in a cave and never venture out. Medicine, Transportation, Technology, Engineering, Architecture, Fashion, Modern Societies, etc etc. They all started with baby steps, and stumbles. This is progress. You can either decide to spend the rest of your life observing, or take part in the process for once. We only live once.

That's not realy true at all with most of those things. Medicine, Engineering, Architecture, all start in the lab, and are never adopted by the general public. Fashion is a world of it's own, and baby steps get you nowhere, it's the big bold moves that move that industry. And i think people are putting way to much emphasis on HDM, especially in this forum, granted it is a Blu-ray specific forum, but the world won't end if blu-ray dies. High Definition is a useless advent, but before i get murdered, so is fashion, video games etc. and I love those. But point is, we'll live without it, and this really isn't a process, it's a small segregation, the world will never switch over to HDM on it's own. I agree with this thread completely

[mdm1699]

Originally Posted by hardcore_canadian

That's not realy true at all with most of those things. Medicine, Engineering, Architecture, all start in the lab, and are never adopted by the general public.

You are missing the point here. I will not deprive you. Figure it out for yourself.

Originally Posted by hardcore_canadian

Fashion is a world of it's own, and baby steps get you nowhere, it's the big bold moves that move that industry.

Followers see "big bold moves". Early adopters see baby steps. You remind me of Commodus at the start of Gladiator when he missed the battle.

Originally Posted by hardcore_canadian

And i think people are putting way to much emphasis on HDM,

Don't speak for me. I have the right to want it.

Originally Posted by hardcore_canadian

especially in this forum, granted it is a Blu-ray specific forum, but the world won't end if blu-ray dies.

Redundant

Originally Posted by hardcore_canadian

High Definition is a useless advent,

Still, here you are.

Originally Posted by hardcore_canadian

but before i get murdered, so is fashion, video games etc. and I love those. But point is, we'll live without it, and this really isn't a process, it's a small segregation, the world will never switch over to HDM on it's own. I agree with this thread completely

Speak for yourself. If you have siblings, it is highly unlikely that they want the same things that you do.

[hardcore_canadian]

notice, i said "i think" in that post. and not once did i say i was speaking for anybody else. and just as you say you are entitled to your opinion, I in turn am entitled to mine. And i see where you say i am missin the point, but how many members of the GP are architects? doctors? lab techs, biotechnical engineers? I'm not trying to say you're wrong in loving blu-ray, I'm just trying to say, in my personal view, I am right, just as in your personal view, you're right

[hardcore_canadian]

also, and again don't shoot me. I haven't bothered watching gladiator. But ont he topic pof fashion, there's no such thing as baby steps, don't argue with me on this one...there's no such thing as baby steps, everything is a bold move.