Could the future be in 3" media?

[tron3]

The 4-¾" disc format has been with us a long time. Long before CD & DVD, this is the typical size of the media found in 5-¼" floppy discs, and the platter size in all modern hard drives. No doubt about it, this small flat disc has met ever growing demands of technology and the consumer.

Look inside every disc tray in your home. CD players, PC CD-ROM, DVD players, HD DVD and blu-ray players and you see the same thing... that 3" recession made for reading (ta da!) 3" mini disc.

Sure, the capacity suffers, but let's presume a single layer 3" BD holds 15gb. Therefore, a mini-BD DL holds 30GB. Yes, I know these are HD DVD capacities. BD has been trumped up to higher levels, which means we could see mini-BD40. Of course, these are all estimations unless we have real numbers to draw from.

Further more, even if we do not see a BD100 (4 layers), maybe we could see a BD75 (3 layers). 3 layers in mini-BD could easily give us 50 to 60 GB. Which is PLENTY for the current movie offerings we now see.

Ok, you are asking, why change AGAIN? Technically, we don't change again. Either disc is still compatible with our blu-ray players. Barring the question of firmware being able to update our exisiting players to play these small wonders - let's press on.

Ok, why 3" disc? What makes it better? Portability. Blu-ray has the potential of providing home theater quality movies in a smaller format. Smaller discs usually means less production cost. But here is the killer app that makes it worth while. Portable blu-ray players! Take the smallest CD/DVD player you have ever seen. Can you slip it in your pocket? No. Can you hold it in one hand? Not easily.

Some people say the future is in optical. With a terrabyte or more of space, that could be a threat to blu-ray within 10 years. With that kind of storage capacity a 3" disc might hold 250 GB. Isn't THAT enough to hold movies, lossless audio, and HD extra's?

Call me crazy, call me a visionary. But I see 3" being the future of home theater media. Even with the prolific expansion of high speed downloading, there will always be a market for hard media - always.

[CptGreedle]

3" has been around for a while, and never really took off the way people wanted it too. Honestly, many drives can not read 3" discs properly. Many slot loading drives can not load them properly, although this has been fixed lately with new models, such as the Wii which can take the 3" gamecube games. However, even though they released these 3" games, the Wii uses the full sized 5" discs.
It is just the way it is. In Japan, the 3" discs are sometimes used as business cards, and yet you don't see this in most countries.
I am all for the 3" format, even MD (mini discs) used a similar format, but they were doomed to fail in USA, loosing out to the mp3 before it could take off. It's just that I don't think anyone will want to use them for most application since not every player reads them properly (early imacs can not read them for example, don't know about new ones), and you can fit so much more storage on the 5" discs.

There may be a place for them somewhere, (such as UMD), but I do not think they are going to be replacing the 5" discs.

[Kristin Simard]

I dunno. There have been 3 inch music discs for a long time, but they have never caught on. When people find a format they like (CD) they like to stick with it. Most Blu's released now seem to be DL 50s. It's enough work to get Blu-ray to catch on, why trade it for a lower capacity disc without the full uncompressed PCM sound for movies?

[Teazle]

Aren't the discs for use in Hitachi's Blu-ray camcorders 3"? (?)

[tron3]

Excellent points guys, but what was the stopping force behind wild success of 3" media? One word, "capacity". Over come that with improved single capacity and multi-layering, and the point becomes moot. Look how we ditched CD for MP3. Whole new format, whole new concept, it can work if marketed correctly.

Sure, the larger disc will always give us more space, blah blah blah. I still say higher capacity 3" BD movies have a chance. So what will be the driving force behind this media? Play Station Portable II with blu-ray support. Think about it - the PS3 is already saving our blu-arses.

But c'mon, guys - 250GB in a 3" optical disc. That is a whole new level of coolness!

[Ian@CDRLabs]

Originally Posted by tron3

Excellent points guys, but what was the stopping force behind wild success of 3" media?

It's also cost. Who wants to spend considerably more for a 8cm disc that holds less than its 12cm counterpart?

[tron3]

Originally Posted by Ian@CDRLabs

It's also cost. Who wants to spend considerably more for a 8cm disc that holds less than its 12cm counterpart?

As you may recall, BD was much more expensive to produce at first. With the new high production machines in place, the cost differential is minimal. Price is virtually moot. I'd certainly pay a dollar more for something that was small, easier to store, fits in my shirt pocket, and plays in a portable player - with NO QUALITY LOSS.

[Luis_A51]

ughhh...nice uhmmm rant...

[Kristin Simard]

250 GB storage capacity on a 3 inch disc is still a long way off for any commercial application. And why not go to holographic storage if you want high volume in a small space?

In saying that 3 inch is the future, you are saying that the standard 4 3/4 inch Blu-ray discs now marketed are inadequate and obsolete. I think that the they are a fine medium for the next 15 - 20 years. That's why I'm buying them and not waiting for an imaginary 3 inch disc to come out on the market.

If they are not imaginary, where can I get Pan's Labyrinth (for example) on 3 inch?

[tron3]

Originally Posted by Kristin Simard

...In saying that 3 inch is the future, you are saying that the standard 4 3/4 inch Blu-ray discs now marketed are inadequate and obsolete. I think that the they are a fine medium for the next 15 - 20 years. That's why I'm buying them and not waiting for an imaginary 3 inch disc to come out on the market.

If they are not imaginary, where can I get Pan's Labyrinth (for example) on 3 inch?

Not saying BD is obsolete by any means. Even if single layer BD doubles in capacity, I'm not saying the current size should go away.

I AM saying that HDM for movies is a read only format. If you can fit everything in 3" with no qaulity loss, why not? Not saying the larger size should go away, by all means, the extra space is always welcome. But in a read-only format, 3" has definate advantages if space is no longer an issue.

I'm not saying it will be the new standard in the near future, but a standard none-the-less.

[Manco]

You raise a good question. I have always wondered why consumer adoption of 3" media has not taken off. The only thing I come back to is the freeway (sorry east coasters...highway) analogy: "The more lanes you add, the more vehicles there are to fill it up". So goes packaged media: "If I can fit xxGB's on 3" why not go for xxxGB's on 5". It just seems to come back to 5" media which will always store more than its 3" counterpart.

But I agree... a "mini portable" BD player would be very cool!

[JadedRaverLA]

As someone else posted... the Hitachi BD camcorders record to 3" (8cm) BD discs. They actually hold 7.5GB per layer. Not really enough to replace BD discs for movie playback... but very cool for camcorders and could catch on for data storage if the price comes down significantly. A PSP2 with 3" BD would be awesome.

[lch]

maybe the future will be flashcard base when they get high density enough.
we now have 8gb sdhc, soon will be 16, 32,64 on a small little microsd.

[Ian@CDRLabs]

Originally Posted by tron3

As you may recall, BD was much more expensive to produce at first. With the new high production machines in place, the cost differential is minimal. Price is virtually moot. I'd certainly pay a dollar more for something that was small, easier to store, fits in my shirt pocket, and plays in a portable player - with NO QUALITY LOSS.

I think you're missing my point. Yes, the cost of Blu-ray discs has come down a lot. However, as with 8cm CD's and DVD's, the cost of 8cm BD-R discs is higher than 12cm BD-R discs. I just don't think people will buy them so that they can put them in their pocket.

[tron3]

Originally Posted by Ian@CDRLabs

I think you're missing my point. Yes, the cost of Blu-ray discs has come down a lot. However, as with 8cm CD's and DVD's, the cost of 8cm BD-R discs is higher than 12cm BD-R discs. I just don't think people will buy them so that they can put them in their pocket.

Got your point just fine. What I failed to infer was this is a viable technology only when the price comes down and the capacity goes up.

This isn't just for the sake of "pocket technology". This is for the sake of "ultra portable" technology. Such as PSP with blu-ray and / or ultra portable blu-ray players.

I assume the movies you buy now for the PSP are normal TV resolution with a lower bit rate. While the goal is to have a technology viable for both mainstream home and portable use, I certainly believe there is a market for 3" BD media with 720p movies.

[jorg]

Originally Posted by lch

maybe the future will be flashcard base when they get high density enough.
we now have 8gb sdhc, soon will be 16, 32,64 on a small little microsd.

it wont be silicon(flash) extraction prosesos is way more expensive then optical
maybe for other typs on "flash" memory such as mram or phase changing ram but those are all long way off


BTW singel layer 3" blu-ray disc hold `8 gigs or like 8.2 gigs and dule layer 16.5 gigs or something like that its likely that the only way well see quad layer 3" blu-ray will be after quad full size discs and released and if it can bee seen that all recorders will be able to take advantage of it(4 layers)

[dpomp]

i had some of these mini cd-r's and they only held like 100MB it was not worth the price.

[jorg]

but mini bd holds 8 gigs lol fit a dule layer dvd onto a 3" singel layer blu-ray disc

[tron3]

OK, I am going to switch gears. I figure it was better to pick up here rather than start a new thread.

In the past I have also speculated that memory stick devices could be the future of home video. However, we know the cost is prohibitive with no relief in site. It stands to reason this is a pipedream.

But, consider this. We know that hard media discs are cheap and hold vast amounts of storage. Sure, it's not always read/write capable, but in the medium of movies, that doesn't matter.

Back to the idea of USB movie devices. USB movie memory sticks could theorhetically be produced cheaply. Why? Because they only need a way to produce cheap ROM's. The substrate material could be a piece of pressed, or laser etched Lucite plastic. I guess that would be Holographic memory in a stick. All that remains is a way to read it.

I know, doesn't sound practical in that case. But if movies can be converted into a semi-conductor ROM pressing, then the making of movies could be as simple as making Juicey Fruit! This is different from pressing a disc because it is a semi-conductor surface, which is needed to electronically read the data.

Impossible? Heck, I thought 4.7GB DVD was the end of technological space expansion. With enough research in the right direction, Read-only Memory sticks with ultra high capacitys could be made cheaply, and quickly.