Animerama: 1001 Nights / Cleopatra Blu-ray (Third Window)

[DecibelGuy]

Howdy all!

I saw this up on Amazon.co.uk a couple of months ago and decided to do something I very rarely do: pre-order. I did this as it was billed as a limited edition (no details on print count) and I figured I'd better get it immediately instead of risking having to pay dearly for it as a punishment for waiting.

Here is the blu-ray.com page for this title: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Anime...lu-ray/192756/

The set came in the mail today and I just spent around thirty minutes skimming both discs to check that the AV quality is decent (it may take me some time to get around to watching these so I felt I should preview them now.)

Unfortunately both movies are riddled with AV problems. The set claims the transfers are sourced from a recent 2K restoration. My initial impressions lead me to believe that this supposed "restoration" was led not by professionals but by dilettantes who fancy themselves film preservationists.

Alarm bells will start ringing even as you read the plot synopsis at the back of the blu-ray case. There are many stylistic errors in the writing and even a couple of typos - already a sign of shoddiness in the overall package.

Let's start with A Thousand and One Nights. Overall the film is presented from a rather dirty-looking 35mm print, but I can deal with natural film artefacts. What I do not deal with is a dirty film print that on top of that has been heavily processed on the computer on a shot-by-shot basis to end up looking like something that at its worst moments reminds you of VHS.

Some shots look reasonably sharp despite the film wear. However, if you zoom into the image on your TV you will notice that there are halos around most objects indicative of artificial sharpening. Moreover, in many shots you can see stair-stepping on lineart - this is something I normally encounter on DVD. This leads me to believe that the transfer is either an SD upscale, or the dolt responsible for the disc's encoding (or perhaps some other greater dolt in charge of the "restoration") managed to reduce the image's vertical resolution by half before re-upscaling it back to 1080p.

Other shots look really muddy, pasty and ugly. Sometimes white highlights produce strange artefacts which certainly don't look like anything resembling motion picture film. Grain is visible somewhat, though I am certain the picture has been through incompetently-handled DVNR. Finally, the film's black levels are egregiously bad. Apparently somebody at Third Window films did not notice that all blacks in the film appear grey. To correct the black levels I had to set the brightness level of my Panasonic Plasma TV to -25!

As for the audio, it also sounds really poor. Thin, tinny and distorted in the higher frequencies - seemingly throughout the entire picture. Whether this is once more the result of incompetence or limitations of the source elements I do not know.

There is one things that looked good about the transfer - the colours. In most cases they are rich and deeply saturated (especially after lowering the TV's brightness) At the very least it doesn't look like Third Window used a faded print as a source.

Cleopatra seems to suffer from all the same ailments as the other film except for the stair-stepping on the lineart. Keep in mind though that I only skimmed through these discs and there very well may be a number of shots in the film with the same undesirable artefacts.

I am currently wondering whether to keep this set or return it. For all its faults, it does look better than DVD overall and the image is not constantly DVNRed to death (it changes from shot to shot). I would also like to watch the movies as they are new to me, and I really doubt they will get a rerelease. What do you think I should do?

Now if only these films could have looked as good as Belladonna of Sadness.

[Fnord Prefect]

Quick reply:

2000 blu-ray copies and 1,000 DVD.

http://thirdwindowfilms.com/films/an...hts-cleopatra/

Now to actually read you entire post.

[Dragon Ranger]

I have purchased this set too but not had a chance to watch it yet. A shame to read the PQ and audio is so poor.

It's limited to 2000 copies on Blu ray and 1000 on DVD so it should become collectible pretty quickly. No idea if any other country has a release planned but if news of it appears elsewhere you could always sell this edition on.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...une-18/.130139

[Yami]

We do have a dedicated Third Window thread where they can answer any queries that you may have.

I haven't seen the release so can't comment on its quality; what I would say is that if I really wanted to see a film, I would still do so even if it was below YouTube / VHS / old TV recording quality. It's better than nothing, and I would guess that this is still much better than nothing.

[spacenoid1]

Just got this., a bit disappointed it's a single amaray in a slipcase rather than separate cases in a slip box (as marketed I thought?). Will watch 1001 nights tonight. The trailer looks like it's from an aged source but I'll be happy if at least it's a straight HD scan even if a bit rough looking. Can see this one dropping a bit in price now I see they've gone the cheaper route for the packaging rather than doing the full deluxe treatment.

[Eibon]

Originally Posted by spacenoid1

Just got this., a bit disappointed it's a single amaray in a slipcase rather than separate cases in a slip box (as marketed I thought?). Will watch 1001 nights tonight. The trailer looks like it's from an aged source but I'll be happy if at least it's a straight HD scan even if a bit rough looking. Can see this one dropping a bit in price now I see they've gone the cheaper route for the packaging rather than doing the full deluxe treatment.

Third Window does incredible work with the materials available. This was already called out as a rare piece of work and I presume it's not to be improved upon any time soon. Furthermore, previous Third Window double bills (Tetsuo and the Kiyoshi Kurosawa Serpent DVD) were all single case editions.

[Patient-X]

Originally Posted by spacenoid1

Just got this., a bit disappointed it's a single amaray in a slipcase rather than separate cases in a slip box (as marketed I thought?). Will watch 1001 nights tonight. The trailer looks like it's from an aged source but I'll be happy if at least it's a straight HD scan even if a bit rough looking. Can see this one dropping a bit in price now I see they've gone the cheaper route for the packaging rather than doing the full deluxe treatment.

It was never marketed as two separate cases, just as reversible sleeves.

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

PRE-ORDERS now up for the ANIMERAMA set!
Out on both Bluray and DVD

BOTH FILMS ARE PRESENTED WITH NEW 2K RESTORATIONS HANDLED BY TEZUKA PRODUCTIONS, TOGETHER IN A LIMITED EDITION SLIPCASE WITH REVERSIBLE SLEEVES OF EACH FILM.
Other extras include:
Audio commentaries for both films by Helen Mccarthy, author of The Art of Osamu Tezuka: God of Manga
New hour-long interview with director Eiichi Yamamoto
Liner notes by film critic Simon Abrams
Limited Editions: 2000 units Bluray / 1000 units DVD

[stepeanut]

For those who have seen this, is it worth me picking up?

I’m not a hardcore anime fan, but I do enjoy the odd one, especially those with ‘adult’ themes — and I’m not just talking about sex. I blind-bought Belladonna of Sadness, which I enjoyed very much and thought was beautifully drawn.

[spacenoid1]

I've skipped through 1001 nights, I'm happy with it, though I only have a 32" screen and I'm not one for close scrutinisation of each pixel. But overall its in line with what I expected.

Yes I would say if you like beautiful hand drawn anime rather than super clean computer animation then this is for you stepanut.

Trailer

[stepeanut]

Originally Posted by spacenoid1

Yes I would say if you like beautiful hand drawn anime rather than super clean computer animation then this is for you stepanut.

Many thanks. I’m trying to watch the pennies at the moment, but I’m sorely tempted by this one.

[PowellPressburger]

Yeah curious about this release also. Would like more thoughts on the transfer.

It looks like a nice release though.

[dullboy]

I can concur with DecibelGuy on the look of 1001 Nights. It's a shame because I rather enjoyed the film (first time seeing it). Has an overall digitized look to it and the sound seems compressed as well. I only started Cleopatra and while the jagged line art does seem to be gone, I did notice mosquito noise in the blacks right away.

[thirdwindowfilms]

to explain the situation:

TEZUKA PRODUCTIONS themselves handled the restorations. Unfortunately, as in the case of many Japanese films (including the recent KITANO restorations by Office Kitano), Japan is very far behind on "restorations". In Japan, the main source of income for films is THEATRICAL and nobody buys DVDs or watches Netflix. So it's the complete opposite of the West. Japan is quite old-fashioned about cinema and people care only about watching movies and there is not so much a care about their format or quality, just what's on screen (i.e. story, actors, etc). Blu-ray is still not a big format here and many films are not released on blu-ray at all. So companies don't feel the need to work on "restoring" titles as due to the lack of interest there is also a lack of competition, and therefore it's VERY EXPENSIVE to do proper restorations.
Japanese companies are also against their films leaving the country to be restored, whether or not the director wants to or not. Japanese films are made in what is called a "film committee" system, so the copyright of the film is handled by many companies and directors have no say in what happens. With very rare cases like SHINYA TSUKAMOTO, he keeps the copyrights and therefore can remaster himself and hence spend the time and money in dealing with his own films, but he is a very rare case.
For the case of ANIMERAMA, the first two (cleopatra and 1001 nights) were official TEZUKA films and big budgets, so it was impossible to get the prints out of Japan or for anybody but Tezuka productions to do, as they are big and controlling. With BELLADONNA, as it is almost a sort of independent film and not TEZUKA, it was possible to be restored overseas and therefore was done properly and at 4K in America. Hence its quality.

Remember these are also old films which don't have great source materials and have never been readily available. It was very hard to even get them prepared.

So to be honest, without spending ludicrous amounts of time and money to take control of everything and do in Japan, it was impossible to put the same amount of quality in as per Belladonna.

And even if it had been possible, it would have required us to have put the price 2 or 3 times up for retail sales. Would you be prepared to pay £60 or so for the set?
Considering the films have never even been available on DVD overseas and you have the chance to see films which have never been available in any real way, plus available for a very cheap price and with brand new extras in a limited case, then do you really think that it's such a bad deal?

As per the mindset in Japan, sometimes having the chance to see something which you would never see otherwise can have some sort of meaning, don't you think? You also need to sometimes understand that this is about FILMS and not just digital quality. Some films are old and so are their materials, and this is not of a time of the 21st century where everything is shot digitally and easily preserved.

p.s. the German and French releases are exactly the same sources, so no change in the slightest.

Originally Posted by DecibelGuy

Howdy all!

I saw this up on Amazon.co.uk a couple of months ago and decided to do something I very rarely do: pre-order. I did this as it was billed as a limited edition (no details on print count) and I figured I'd better get it immediately instead of risking having to pay dearly for it as a punishment for waiting.

Here is the blu-ray.com page for this title: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Anime...lu-ray/192756/

The set came in the mail today and I just spent around thirty minutes skimming both discs to check that the AV quality is decent (it may take me some time to get around to watching these so I felt I should preview them now.)

Unfortunately both movies are riddled with AV problems. The set claims the transfers are sourced from a recent 2K restoration. My initial impressions lead me to believe that this supposed "restoration" was led not by professionals but by dilettantes who fancy themselves film preservationists.

Alarm bells will start ringing even as you read the plot synopsis at the back of the blu-ray case. There are many stylistic errors in the writing and even a couple of typos - already a sign of shoddiness in the overall package.

Let's start with A Thousand and One Nights. Overall the film is presented from a rather dirty-looking 35mm print, but I can deal with natural film artefacts. What I do not deal with is a dirty film print that on top of that has been heavily processed on the computer on a shot-by-shot basis to end up looking like something that at its worst moments reminds you of VHS.

Some shots look reasonably sharp despite the film wear. However, if you zoom into the image on your TV you will notice that there are halos around most objects indicative of artificial sharpening. Moreover, in many shots you can see stair-stepping on lineart - this is something I normally encounter on DVD. This leads me to believe that the transfer is either an SD upscale, or the dolt responsible for the disc's encoding (or perhaps some other greater dolt in charge of the "restoration") managed to reduce the image's vertical resolution by half before re-upscaling it back to 1080p.

Other shots look really muddy, pasty and ugly. Sometimes white highlights produce strange artefacts which certainly don't look like anything resembling motion picture film. Grain is visible somewhat, though I am certain the picture has been through incompetently-handled DVNR. Finally, the film's black levels are egregiously bad. Apparently somebody at Third Window films did not notice that all blacks in the film appear grey. To correct the black levels I had to set the brightness level of my Panasonic Plasma TV to -25!

As for the audio, it also sounds really poor. Thin, tinny and distorted in the higher frequencies - seemingly throughout the entire picture. Whether this is once more the result of incompetence or limitations of the source elements I do not know.

There is one things that looked good about the transfer - the colours. In most cases they are rich and deeply saturated (especially after lowering the TV's brightness) At the very least it doesn't look like Third Window used a faded print as a source.

Cleopatra seems to suffer from all the same ailments as the other film except for the stair-stepping on the lineart. Keep in mind though that I only skimmed through these discs and there very well may be a number of shots in the film with the same undesirable artefacts.

I am currently wondering whether to keep this set or return it. For all its faults, it does look better than DVD overall and the image is not constantly DVNRed to death (it changes from shot to shot). I would also like to watch the movies as they are new to me, and I really doubt they will get a rerelease. What do you think I should do?

Now if only these films could have looked as good as Belladonna of Sadness.

[Dragon Ranger]

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

to explain the situation:

TEZUKA PRODUCTIONS themselves handled the restorations. Unfortunately, as in the case of many Japanese films (including the recent KITANO restorations by Office Kitano), Japan is very far behind on "restorations". In Japan, the main source of income for films is THEATRICAL and nobody buys DVDs or watches Netflix. So it's the complete opposite of the West. Japan is quite old-fashioned about cinema and people care only about watching movies and there is not so much a care about their format or quality, just what's on screen (i.e. story, actors, etc). Blu-ray is still not a big format here and many films are not released on blu-ray at all. So companies don't feel the need to work on "restoring" titles as due to the lack of interest there is also a lack of competition, and therefore it's VERY EXPENSIVE to do proper restorations.
Japanese companies are also against their films leaving the country to be restored, whether or not the director wants to or not. Japanese films are made in what is called a "film committee" system, so the copyright of the film is handled by many companies and directors have no say in what happens. With very rare cases like SHINYA TSUKAMOTO, he keeps the copyrights and therefore can remaster himself and hence spend the time and money in dealing with his own films, but he is a very rare case.
For the case of ANIMERAMA, the first two (cleopatra and 1001 nights) were official TEZUKA films and big budgets, so it was impossible to get the prints out of Japan or for anybody but Tezuka productions to do, as they are big and controlling. With BELLADONNA, as it is almost a sort of independent film and not TEZUKA, it was possible to be restored overseas and therefore was done properly and at 4K in America. Hence its quality.

Remember these are also old films which don't have great source materials and have never been readily available. It was very hard to even get them prepared.

So to be honest, without spending ludicrous amounts of time and money to take control of everything and do in Japan, it was impossible to put the same amount of quality in as per Belladonna.

And even if it had been possible, it would have required us to have put the price 2 or 3 times up for retail sales. Would you be prepared to pay £60 or so for the set?
Considering the films have never even been available on DVD overseas and you have the chance to see films which have never been available in any real way, plus available for a very cheap price and with brand new extras in a limited case, then do you really think that it's such a bad deal?

As per the mindset in Japan, sometimes having the chance to see something which you would never see otherwise can have some sort of meaning, don't you think? You also need to sometimes understand that this is about FILMS and not just digital quality. Some films are old and so are their materials, and this is not of a time of the 21st century where everything is shot digitally and easily preserved.

p.s. the German and French releases are exactly the same sources, so no change in the slightest.

That's very interesting to read; I knew that home media releases in Japan were ridiculously expensive and always wondered why. Didn't realise there wasn't as much of a collector culture as in the Western world.

It is a shame that the committee system prevents their being better availability of movies/series outside of Japan and for classics not to be fully restored but I fully agree with your point that people should not pass up the chance to own such rare movies at such a good price. Hopefully one day Japanese studios will open up to the rest of the world and make their art more accessible; I think we are seeing a step up in this with labels such as Shout Factory releasing Super Sentai and Criterion currently working on the Godzilla Showa era remasters.

[PowellPressburger]

I got my copy today from DiabolikDVD with slipcover.

I had totally forgotten thaf Isao Tomita had composed music for both of these films.

Both movies contain audio commentaries from Helen McCarthy

So far Ive watched One Thousand and One Nights and it is cool to finally see it. True the transfer isnt pristine but i think based upon the info above post from Third Window Films I have no regrets from the purchase.

Love all the different animation, art techniques used in 1001 Nights.

I think I enjoy it more so than Belladonna Of Sadness mostly because Belladonna is a far different film, but I’ll revisit it after seeing Cleopatra.

[Fnord Prefect]

While it's sad the transfers are far less than perfect they are hardly disastrous. To be frank they're just mediocre, and if it means getting to see English friendly correctly framed versions of these two titles I can live with mediocre. Thank you Third Window for releasing these, so far it's one of my releases of the year.

[Vakulinchuk]

Got the set, watched 1001 Nights, release of the year so far for me.

BE SURE to watch the 1001 Nights trailer, which has a couple scenes edited out from the main movie, and more importantly, is scanned / restored at a higher quality.

[qw0aszx]

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

to explain the situation:

In Japan, the main source of income for films is THEATRICAL and nobody buys DVDs or watches Netflix. So it's the complete opposite of the West.

Japanese companies are also against their films leaving the country to be restored, whether or not the director wants to or not.

Well, at least Japan is better than mainland China! The physical media market in Japan is huge compared to mainland China here. Also for the restorations of old mainland China film, they must handled by the official government places, official film studios or China Film Archive. Not to say the restoration quality of China Film Archive are often very poor (and they sometimes did some ridiculous decisions like using the software to add the frames when restoring The Horse Thief and produced the new restoration in 48fps). Some exceptions I remember are Two Stage Sisters and Love and Duty were restored by L'Immagine Ritrovata. Two Stage Sisters was an attempt from Shanghai Film Studio to let overseas restoration studio do the restoration, however it became the first and the last attempt to do so. For Love and Duty, the only surviving copy were found overseas and owned by Taiwan Film Studio now, they would willing to let overseas studio to do the restoration. Also for these mainland China restorations, they normally are not allowed to license out for physical media releases, so that's a huge pain.

[Alfred E. Neumann]

Yuck.




https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&...122595&i=0&l=1

[Rui]

just wondering, has anyone tested this release to see if it's Region B locked?

edit- actually just checked the database and a user has already marked it as locked