Blind Test Suggested PCM VS. Bitstream

[halmo20]

My current set up is HDMI 1.2 receiver and PS3. As long as PS3 gets 'Internal' decoding of DTS-HD MA, I will be happy sending it to my AVR via PCM. Some users however seem to think bitstream results in better sound. Now, given that no artificial processing is done to the digital signal (I think PS3 doesn't do any of that), I know (or I think I know) that PCM and Bitstream should give same SQ.. If however, as some users have suggested, bitstream results in better SQ, I am more than willing to spend extra buck for TruHD/DTS-HDMA bitstream capable player and Decode capable receiver. But I have to know for sure that it does results in better SQ.. I don't want to know biases opinion with placebo effect..
Has anyone here done a 'BLIND TEST' using a player that is capable of BOTH internal decoding of HD sound format AND bitstream to capable receiver and found that indeed bitstream gave better SQ??? Of course the volume level in both cases has to be same and no other processing should be applied to either case. Or such test has been done anywhere else???

Edit: I myself have done double blind test using PS3 and regular Dolby Digital. Internal Decoding VS Bitstream. When PS3's internal PCM volume was adjusted to match my AVR's bitstream decoding volume level, I absolutely could not tell any difference. I can't run similar test with TruHD or DTS-HD myself. I want us to start building some consensus here.. I think it will prove useful for many users.


Thanks

[GreenMotion]

I'd be interested in test results as well; though I like to believe that my $1000 receiver (dedicated to just decoding) would do a better job than the $500 PS3 whos primary job is being a game console. Hence why I would love to get full bitstream support on the PS3.

[Brain Sturgeon]

I don't think there is a currently available player that will allow you to select either internal decoding or bitstreaming of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA, is there? AFAIK, The currently available players can do one or the other but not both. Therefore, a blind "A-B" test using the same player and processing/amplification stage is not possible. I think you could compare two different players (for instance a Panasonic BD10 for internal THD decoding versus a BD30 for bitstreaming THD), but that would throw the variabilities between the two players into question.

Otherwise, this would be a great thing to do; once the equipment is available.

[halmo20]

//Brain,
Thanks for your input. If you are correct on the availability of a such player, I am disappointed as well.. I am really interested in finding out what really happens...

[quetzalcoatl]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

I don't think there is a currently available player that will allow you to select either internal decoding or bitstreaming of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA, is there? AFAIK, The currently available players can do one or the other but not both. Therefore, a blind "A-B" test using the same player and processing/amplification stage is not possible. I think you could compare two different players (for instance a Panasonic BD10 for internal THD decoding versus a BD30 for bitstreaming THD), but that would throw the variabilities between the two players into question.

Otherwise, this would be a great thing to do; once the equipment is available.

Not entirely true. The Pioneer 95 can do both the bitstreaming and decoding of TrueHD. The one that is missing from the mix is DTS HD MA.

But back to the op. I have done many blind tests with movies that have both a PCM and TrueHD tracks on them. And in every case those that have done it have said that the TrueHD sounds better. And yes I adjust for volume.

What I have not tested is to see if I have my player decode the TrueHD and send it PCM vs the PCM track. Might make for some interesting tests.

[aqupunk]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl

Not entirely true. The Pioneer 95 can do both the bitstreaming and decoding of TrueHD. The one that is missing from the mix is DTS HD MA.

But back to the op. I have done many blind tests with movies that have both a PCM and TrueHD tracks on them. And in every case those that have done it have said that the TrueHD sounds better. And yes I adjust for volume.

What I have not tested is to see if I have my player decode the TrueHD and send it PCM vs the PCM track. Might make for some interesting tests.

I agree true hd sounds better to me to, but I like the dts master audio the best!!

[halmo20]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl

Not entirely true. The Pioneer 95 can do both the bitstreaming and decoding of TrueHD. The one that is missing from the mix is DTS HD MA.

But back to the op. I have done many blind tests with movies that have both a PCM and TrueHD tracks on them. And in every case those that have done it have said that the TrueHD sounds better. And yes I adjust for volume.

What I have not tested is to see if I have my player decode the TrueHD and send it PCM vs the PCM track. Might make for some interesting tests.

Have you done blind test of Internal Decoding VS External Decoding of TruHD?
Not PCM 'Track' VS TruHD 'Track' of same movie..
That's what I'm after..

[jcs913]

Since there are no players that decode DTS-HDMA internally, that codec is moot. But I own the BD30 and PS3 and have tested both with 300, Dave Matthews and Ghost Rider. The PS3 decodes the TrueHD track and sends it out as PCM. The BD30 bitstreams the TrueHD track to my Elite 92. This is the best possible testing you can do, since most people seem to be PS3 owners too.
I will say, with confidence, that the bitstreamed TrueHD track sounds better than the decoded PS3 track. The Elite 92 applies a +4 dial norm to the bitstreamed track, which was compensated. But I do not know with exact certainty if the PS3 applies a dial norm, but it sure sounds like a -3 or -4. The PS3 track has a lower volume when volume matched, which leads me to believe it has a - dial norm. As for the all important, 'soundstage' of the track; the PS3 track has a muted center channel when compared to the bitstreamed track. Dialogue is never left 'flat' with the bitstreamed track. The Dave Matthews disc is the best example of this. His voice and the guitar are almost 3-dimensional in the bitstreamed track, due to the center channel. The surround effects, especially in Ghost Rider are much more prominent in the bitstreamed track, where in the PS3 track, I felt like I really had to listen at times to hear the same things.
I don't know how well this helps, but I have been listening to music and have been a minor audiophile for about 15-20 years. My ears are not 'professional' by any means, but I know when I hear the little subtlties in music and dialogue. I can say, for certain, that I hear a difference between the PS3 decoded TrueHD track and the bitstreamed TrueHD track from the Panny BD30.

[halmo20]

Wow sounds like either your receiver is doing something to make bitstream sound better or PS3 is leaving out a lot of digital information when it's decoding TrueHD material!!! A sign that perhaps PS3 indeed sucks at decoding stuff?? What's going on? aren't they supposed to be same digital bits of 0s and 1s??

Any Elite95 owners that tried internal VS external decoding of TrueHD track on a same receiver???

PCM of TrueHD from Disc A out of Player B to Receiver C VS Bitstream of TrueHD from Disc A out of Player B to Receiver C

Anyone??

[quetzalcoatl]

Originally Posted by halmo20

Wow sounds like either your receiver is doing something to make bitstream sound better or PS3 is leaving out a lot of digital information when it's decoding TrueHD material!!! A sign that perhaps PS3 indeed sucks at decoding stuff?? What's going on? aren't they supposed to be same digital bits of 0s and 1s??

Any Elite95 owners that tried internal VS external decoding of TrueHD track on a same receiver???

PCM of TrueHD from Disc A out of Player B to Receiver C VS Bitstream of TrueHD from Disc A out of Player B to Receiver C

Anyone??

Nope but will start looking at it within the next day. And hope to have some results soon. Will have initial reports soon.

[quetzalcoatl]

Well here is the first report. I tried it with what I think is the best TrueHD track out there Dave Matthews, which is 24/96. And this was just me and it is harder to compare since you cannot just hit the audio button to change tracks. You must stop the player and go into setup to change it to PCM. So after going through the first song twice I must say there is a small difference in the TrueHD bitstreamed or it PCM. Nowhere near as great as when you look at tracks that have both and switch between them. And this is not a good one to do it on since the PCM is only 24/48. The TrueHD bitstream seems to be brighter and with more seperation. It is not huge but seems to be there.

I will have to test this one on the PS3 and see how it sounds. But that will not happen tonight. Wife has already called it a night since she has to be up in the early am.

[gblack]

According to Dolby, decoding should be done by the player in order to take advantage of new audio mixing capabilities of Blu-Ray:

From Dolby's FAQs:
4. What is the benefit (value) of implementing
Dolby TrueHD in high-definition disc
playback products?
Next-generation HD disc players can be
designed to participate in processing audio
for home theater systems. Features like
interactivity and audio mixing will require the
audio to be decoded in the player instead of
the A/V receiver. A Dolby TrueHD multichannel
decoder in the player will be the only way to
ensure that listeners will hear the full quality
of the wide range of programs anticipated.

[quetzalcoatl]

Originally Posted by gblack

According to Dolby, decoding should be done by the player in order to take advantage of new audio mixing capabilities of Blu-Ray:

That is for a whole differnet thing. See here.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=24890

It says nothing about getting the best sound. And where they should be the same it appears they are not.

[halmo20]

Originally Posted by quetzalcoatl

Well here is the first report. I tried it with what I think is the best TrueHD track out there Dave Matthews, which is 24/96. And this was just me and it is harder to compare since you cannot just hit the audio button to change tracks. You must stop the player and go into setup to change it to PCM. So after going through the first song twice I must say there is a small difference in the TrueHD bitstreamed or it PCM. Nowhere near as great as when you look at tracks that have both and switch between them. And this is not a good one to do it on since the PCM is only 24/48. The TrueHD bitstream seems to be brighter and with more seperation. It is not huge but seems to be there.

I will have to test this one on the PS3 and see how it sounds. But that will not happen tonight. Wife has already called it a night since she has to be up in the early am.

Thanks for that information.. You said PCM is only 24/48; do you have 24/48 disc you can use for test?? Care to try blind test with someone else adjusting the setting?? should be interesting... If there indeed is SQ difference, it has to be 'After Market' processing of
some kind.. With all AVR induced processing off and volume level equalized, I could not tell difference between PCM DD and Bitstream DD from my PS3.. Then again, although I used fairly decent AVR and speakers, tht's only DD with lower resolution..

[quetzalcoatl]

Originally Posted by halmo20

Thanks for that information.. You said PCM is only 24/48; do you have 24/48 disc you can use for test?? Care to try blind test with someone else adjusting the setting?? should be interesting... If there indeed is SQ difference, it has to be 'After Market' processing of
some kind.. With all AVR induced processing off and volume level equalized, I could not tell difference between PCM DD and Bitstream DD from my PS3.. Then again, although I used fairly decent AVR and speakers, tht's only DD with lower resolution..

If I select the PCM track the TrueHD track tears it appart. What I did was have the player decode the TrueHD track which should have kept it at 24/96 and send it to the player. I will try some blind testing. The only problem is like I said it is not a quick change to make. You have to stop the movie and then go into setup change the audio on the player to PCM and then restart the movie.

Every test so far that I have done that has been blind the people here say that the TrueHD track sounds better. Even with volume adjustments. In all my tests I use Signal direct which for Pioneer is 0 processing. I will have to try to work with the wife to see if she get what I am trying to do and train her. Otherwise it will have to wait until the next time we have friends over for movies. She can handle the hit a button and change the volume not sure she will like all the extra steps to check it the other way.

[Tee]

Originally Posted by jcs913

Since there are no players that decode DTS-HDMA internally, that codec is moot. But I own the BD30 and PS3 and have tested both with 300, Dave Matthews and Ghost Rider. The PS3 decodes the TrueHD track and sends it out as PCM. The BD30 bitstreams the TrueHD track to my Elite 92. This is the best possible testing you can do, since most people seem to be PS3 owners too.
I will say, with confidence, that the bitstreamed TrueHD track sounds better than the decoded PS3 track. The Elite 92 applies a +4 dial norm to the bitstreamed track, which was compensated. But I do not know with exact certainty if the PS3 applies a dial norm, but it sure sounds like a -3 or -4. The PS3 track has a lower volume when volume matched, which leads me to believe it has a - dial norm. As for the all important, 'soundstage' of the track; the PS3 track has a muted center channel when compared to the bitstreamed track. Dialogue is never left 'flat' with the bitstreamed track. The Dave Matthews disc is the best example of this. His voice and the guitar are almost 3-dimensional in the bitstreamed track, due to the center channel. The surround effects, especially in Ghost Rider are much more prominent in the bitstreamed track, where in the PS3 track, I felt like I really had to listen at times to hear the same things.
I don't know how well this helps, but I have been listening to music and have been a minor audiophile for about 15-20 years. My ears are not 'professional' by any means, but I know when I hear the little subtlties in music and dialogue. I can say, for certain, that I hear a difference between the PS3 decoded TrueHD track and the bitstreamed TrueHD track from the Panny BD30.

I can agree 110% percent with this post and others who have heard the PS3 vs. BD30/1400 bitstreaming the new audio formats, having the processor decode the D Trued sounds better. Like the previous post 300 & Dave Matthews BD are great disc to do a compare, also throw in Surf's Up in the mix. The separation and soundstage is outstanding, I could hear Dave and Tim's fingers lift off the strings in some tracks. The little subtle details are put you at the concert vs. just watching a concert; we all have been to concerts and heard live music. We all have heard acoustic guitars, so you know what that live experience sounds like. Well this disc brings that sound/feeling into your home! Now 300 being processed has that amazing WOW factor too, you are apart of the action as a bystander. The musical score can give one chills that set the mood of the film into play for the viewer, easily sucking you in. The PS3 did not do this when sending the soundtrack via PCM; I believe there is too much conversion going on to get the sound to your ears.

Last but not least if you have not heard DTS-HD MSTR yet let me say that you are in for a treat! It is truly something special people; I have a DTS-HD MSTR demo disc that has music clips and music clips. One of the music clips (Omar Hakin - Listen Up! [DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1]) turned my HT room into a studio jam session! It is hard to put into words of how good this clip sounds; you really need to hear for yourself to appreciate the SQ. More and more people are saying they can clearly hear the difference between PCM vs. bitstreaming of the new audio formats, I am one of those who has experience this. I have to say I’m in HD heaven; until you can spend time and listen to the new audio formats via newer AVR's/Pre/Pros please reserve judgment. I know reveiwers say you there should not be a differenc in SQ, but i have not read anything where they have heard the new formats bitstreamed either. I know those who have not heard them yet, will hear the difference.

I'm that confident!

[HeLLSpiRE]

hey Tee, out of curiosity where did you get this DTS-MA sample disc? I'm probably gonna be picking up a Panasonic BD30 to replace my PS3 as my bluray player simply cause I want my Onkyo to do the decoding. PS3 has treated by beautifully until this moment tho

[quetzalcoatl]

Originally Posted by HeLLSpiRE

hey Tee, out of curiosity where did you get this DTS-MA sample disc? I'm probably gonna be picking up a Panasonic BD30 to replace my PS3 as my bluray player simply cause I want my Onkyo to do the decoding. PS3 has treated by beautifully until this moment tho

It was avail at last years CES. You can still find them on ebay but they are not real cheap.

[Tee]

Originally Posted by HeLLSpiRE

hey Tee, out of curiosity where did you get this DTS-MA sample disc? I'm probably gonna be picking up a Panasonic BD30 to replace my PS3 as my bluray player simply cause I want my Onkyo to do the decoding. PS3 has treated by beautifully until this moment tho

quetzalcoatl is right, you can only find them on ebay. I call, e-mailed DTS with no responce so i had to go the ebay route. Great disc!

You can find one here.

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...p=1%26fsoo%3D1

[rudykg]

Mid summer 08 will be when Sony and others will offer a player that will offer all features for decoding truehd and dts including bitstream.