Streaming vs. Downloading vs. HD And 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc (Kaleidescape system)

[HDTV1080P]

On pages 28-33 of the April 2019 Widescreen Review magazine they have an excellent article about 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc versus downloading and streaming.



For those that want the absolute best picture and sound quality in the year 2019 and possible for the next 7+ years, purchase or rent the 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc or download the 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc image to your hard drive server using the Kaleidescape system. Nothing beats 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray and the Kaleidescape system. In fact most of the time the Kaleidescape system has bit for bit 100GB 4K Ultra HD images with the same exact picture quality, sound quality, and extra features as the original store purchased 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc, but at a discounted price since one is not purchasing the package with physical optical media. However, in the ideal world one needs to have 40TB or larger hard drive servers in their home with a minimum network speed of 1Gbps Ethernet so that streaming at 128Mbps to each room that is watching the movie can occur. If the hard drive in 5 to 10 years goes bad, then Kaleidescape keeps a record of every movie that one has purchased on the account, and then automatically downloads the movie to the new hard drive server that was installed. In addition, people in rural areas with super slow Internet can use the service since its download and not live streaming. The only advantage of Kaleidscape system over physical media is that it is super easy to use. In a large family there might be 7 or more rooms that want to watch the same movie or a different movie. However with physical media on optical disc one has to wait for the movie to arrive in the mail, and once the optical disc arrives only one person at a time in the home can view the movie.



The big advantage of the Kaleidscape system is that one can pull up a 4K Blu-ray library on any TV in the home, and then everyone can access the same movie or a different movie without needing to load a disc.

The problem with streaming in the year 2019

Streaming offers the worse picture and sound quality when compared to 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc and the download Kaleidscape system. Netflix and other streaming providers recommend a minimum of 25Mbps for 4K Ultra HD streaming and some professionals recommend a minimum of 50Mbps if several people in the home are using the Internet at once. Personally, I have seen people in rural areas use 4K Netflix and 4K VUDU with Internet speeds of around 16-17Mbps and under ideal conditions as long as no one else is using the Internet the 4K stream works. However, Netflix, VUDU, and all other streaming providers in the year 2019 use lossy audio with low bit rate video when compared to 4K Blu-ray. Netflix, VUDU, and all other streaming providers in the year 2019 are unable to stream at 4K Blu-ray HD quality. A 100GB 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc requires a constant Internet speed of 128Mbps. This also means 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray streaming would not work on a 100Mbps wired home network connection, but instead requires a minimum of a 1Gbps Ethernet connection. It is estimated that a minimum of 250Mbps Internet is required for 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray streaming if other people in the house plan on using the Internet. When more consumers in the United States get access to 1Gbps and 10Gbps residential Internet service, then companies like Kaleidescape might start offering 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc streaming services that are bit for bit exactly the same as the physical disc, currently Kaleidescape only offers 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image downloads to a 40TB hard drive server. Some high-end 4K Blu-ray players like the 2016 OPPO UDP-203 have 1Gbps networking and a programmer with a software update could make the OPPO player or 4K Pioneer player have a 4K streaming Kaleidscape interface.



However, in the year 2019 physical media like 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray and Kaleidscape download services is the best in picture and sound quality. Companies like Netflix and VUDU 5+ years from now would need to start offering 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image downloads to match the quality of physical media. Perhaps in the years to come Netflix might offer 8K streaming with lossless audio, which would be even better quality when compared to physical media. 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray uses a 100GB optical discs, and if a 8K optical disc format were to launch around the year 2026 the optical disc would need a minimum of 300GB of storage space with a new advanced algorithm compression system.



Select quotes from the article located on pages 28-33 of the April 2019 Widescreen Review magazine


“Kaleidescape is the gold standard for downloaded movies and home network playback. There is literally nothing better.”



“Right now, there is no streaming service that competes with the video and audio quality you get from UHD/HDR discs or from lossless downloads like the Kaleidescape system.”


“To my way of thinking, the best streaming service would be Kaleidescape’s download system updated to support streaming where you can access everything that came in the original disc package.”


“If you want the video and audio experience to be “the best that it can be” in your home theatre without a worry that quality is comprised, buy the disc version of the movie or get a Kaleidescape system.”


https://www.widescreenreview.com/wsr...il.php?current

[Gretiem]

Kaleidescape is nice but it is so expensive. Better off just building a cheap plex server with tons of storage and create your own remux images of the 4k movies.

[Vilya]

You omit the best and most relevant parts about Kaleidescape; the extremely high cost of their proprietary "players."

For example these are the prices for the different models at Best Buy online:

The Strato C with NO local storage*: $3495.98

*No internal storage. Strato C accesses content stored on a Terra or Strato (with
internal storage) when connected via network

https://wpe-cdn.kaleidescape.com/wp-...vie-player.pdf

The Strato S with 6 TB of storage: $4494.98

The Strato model with 10TB of storage: $5995.98

The Strato S model with 12.288 TB of storage: $6994.98

The Terra Model with 40TB of storage: $12,995.98

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchp...=960&keys=keys

Their movies are no bargain, either. They are as expensive, and sometimes more expensive, than 4K disc combo packs (combos which usually include the 4K disc, the blu-ray, and a digital code for three ways to watch). See prices from their 4K movie selection here:

https://www.kaleidescape.com/movie-s...lection/4k_hdr

The Kaleidescape systems are very, very expensive for what amounts to little more than a proprietary hard drive; a conventional hard drive at that.

[HDTV1080P]

The Kaleidescape system use to be over $15,000 and prices have come down a lot over the years. More then half its original price.


Hopefully in the future the Kaleidescape system well allow consumers to plug in their own 14TB hard drive for around $500. Then the Kaleidescape download service would be a lot more popular.


Now if Kaleidescape were to create a free streaming app that worked with all 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray players with a 1Gbps network connection. Then many people would buy movies from Kaleidescape. Perhaps one day VUDU or Netflix would purchase the Kaleidescape company just to get their streaming app technology that offers 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image streaming at 128Mbps (that is if they develop that technology in the future).


So I am hoping one day that the Kaleidescape equipment well come down in price for mainstream consumers by allowing one to plug in their own $500 14TB USB 3.1 hard drive. And also in the years to come a free Kaleidescape streaming app for people that own 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray players with 1Gbps Ethernet jacks.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

The Kaleidescape system use to be over $15,000 and prices have come down a lot over the years. More then half its original price.


Hopefully in the future the Kaleidescape system well allow consumers to plug in their own 14TB hard drive for around $500. Then the Kaleidescape download service would be a lot more popular.


Now if Kaleidescape were to create a free streaming app that worked with all 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray players with a 1Gbps network connection. Then many people would buy movies from Kaleidescape. Perhaps one day VUDU or Netflix would purchase the Kaleidescape company just to get their streaming app technology that offers 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image streaming at 128Mbps (that is if they develop that technology in the future).


So I am hoping one day that the Kaleidescape equipment well come down in price for mainstream consumers by allowing one to plug in their own $500 14TB USB 3.1 hard drive. And also in the years to come a free Kaleidescape streaming app for people that own 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray players with 1Gbps Ethernet jacks.

Those prices are for the different models offered today at Best Buy online.

I seriously doubt Kaleidescape, and the movie studios themselves, will ever allow consumers to download these movies to their own infinitely more affordable hard drives. The whole point of a proprietary system is that it gives both the hardware manufacturer, Kaleidscape, and the studios, control over the content, the equipment, and the software necessary to view it.

Proprietary systems also make piracy more difficult. If I had a Kaleidescape file, I could not watch it without their hardware and their software.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Those prices are for the different models offered today at Best Buy online.

I seriously doubt Kaleidscape, and the movie studios themselves, will ever allow consumers to download these movies to their own infinitely more affordable hard drives. The whole point of a proprietary system is that it gives both the hardware manufacturer, Kaleidscape, and the studios, control over the content and the equipment necessary to view it.

However if physical optical discs in 10+ years from now (CD, DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K Blu-ray) are no longer made. I would want a system like Kaleidescape for the best in picture and sound quality.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

However if physical optical discs in 10+ years from now (CD, DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K Blu-ray) are no longer made. I would want a system like Kaleidescape for the best in picture and sound quality.

I would want a downloaded file on my own choice of hard drive and one that I had full control over, playable with the device, and brand, of my choice.

I can play a disc on any disc player made; the competition among different brands helps to make the players affordable. A Kaleidescape file has to be played with a Kaliedescape device; closed proprietary eco-systems like that of Kaleidescape keep the price high.

[Geoff D]

So...discs are better than streaming, eh? Other than incredibly expensive bit-for-bit disc quality highcap downloads, natch. In other breaking news:

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

However with physical media on optical disc one has to wait for the movie to arrive in the mail, and once the optical disc arrives only one person at a time in the home can view the movie.

Not true. At all. My comfy couch alone seats three. I often host movie nights with audiences of varying size.

I can buy my discs in store and watch same day. Amazon even offers same day delivery in some markets. I get next day delivery for an extra $4. As an Amazon Prime member, I get most of my orders in two business days.

Further, that 4K combo pack comes with the blu-ray and the digital code, and each of these can also be viewed by multiple people each and at different locations.

Just one Kaleidescape device will cost you dearly. Buying two or more would be extremely painful for most people. I do not know if Kaleidescape allows you to download a purchased title to more than one Kaleidescape device, either. Each of those satellite Strato C devices (with no storage) cost $3495.98 in addition to the main device with actual storage (priced at $4500 and up), and are limited by the range of your home network.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

So...discs are better than streaming, eh? Other than incredibly expensive bit-for-bit disc quality highcap downloads, natch. In other breaking news:

Yes physical media better in 2019, however 5+ years from now streaming might offer the same quality as 4K Ultra HD optical discs.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Not true. At all. My comfy couch alone seats three. I often host movie nights with audiences of varying size.

I can buy my discs in store and watch same day. Amazon even offers same day delivery in some markets. I get next day delivery for an extra $4.

Further, that 4K combo pack comes with the blu-ray and the digital code, and each of these can also be viewed by multiple people each and at different locations.

Just one Kaleidescape device will cost you dearly. Buying two or more would be extremely painful for most people.

Maybe its time for the BDA to start making 4K Blu-ray players that have its own 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image download service. The consumer buys their own 14TB USB 3.1 hard drive for $500 and the Blu-ray player installs a 256 bit encryption system to keep the downloaded movies secure.


The sad thing is most people are happy with VUDU and Netflix and the quality of lossy audio with low video bit rates are ok with them.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Yes physical media better in 2019, however 5+ years from now streaming might offer the same quality as 4K Ultra HD optical discs.

Kaleidescape is NOT streaming, though. It is a download service.

Streaming bitrates from the likes of Netflix and Vudu have been frozen in amber since 2015; 16 Mbps is the most you will get for a 4K stream from either of them. 4 years later in 2019 and streaming bitrates from these two have been stagnant. Apple 4K TV does better, but these are all still a small fraction of the bitrate from a 4K disc (which can be as high as 128 Mbps).

I seriously doubt that over the next five years that streaming bitrates will equal that of 4K discs. The streaming services have no real incentive to do so; it would use way more bandwidth that both they and the consumer would have to pay for causing service prices to rise. Consumers would need even more robust broadband internet than what they have now, and even if they can get it, they will have to pay more for it.

And as you just said moments ago:

"The sad thing is most people are happy with VUDU and Netflix and the quality of lossy audio with low video bit rates are ok with them."

Streaming customers appear to be, by and large, satisfied with the quality that they get now, so again what incentive is there for the streaming providers to raise their bitrates? Netflix and Vudu would have to raise them 8 fold to equal the full capability of a 4K disc. Additionally, many people can not even stream 4K now due to the limitations of broadband availability and/or its ever rising cost.

Many of those that do have broadband service also have data caps; my data cap is 999 GB per month. 4K streaming at even today's anemic bitrates uses a lot of data. If I had a family, a 999 GB data cap would not be adequate, necessitating the need for an even more expensive internet service plan. If streaming providers increase their bitrates to anywhere near that of a 4K disc, data usage would explode five fold and more (assuming an average 4K disc bitrate of 80+Mbps over the course of movie playback). All of that increased data consumption has to be paid for and I doubt that many streaming customers want to pay that higher cost.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Kaleidescape is NOT streaming, though. It is a download service.

Streaming bitrates from the likes of Netflix and Vudu have been frozen in amber since 2015; 16 Mbps is the most you will get for a 4K stream from either of them. Apple 4K TV does better, but these are all still a small fraction of the bitrate from a 4K disc, which can be as high as 128 Mbps.

I mentioned all of this in my original post. 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image streaming is most likely coming. It might be 5+ years away, and there is a lot of consumers in the United States that have access to 1Gbps and 10Gbps Internet. With those speeds several people in the home can watch 4k Blu-ray streams at once if the streaming content providers decide to offer that quality in the future.

[Gretiem]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I mentioned all of this in my original post. 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray image streaming is most likely coming. It might be 5+ years away, and there is a lot of consumers in the United States that have access to 1Gbps and 10Gbps Internet. With those speeds several people in the home can watch 4k Blu-ray streams at once if the streaming content providers decide to offer that quality in the future.

who is offering 10Gbps internet in the USA and how much ? I've been on 1Gbps fios for awhile now and netflix 4k streaming still doesnt look great. And im sure they will eventually up the bitrate on their 4k streams but I highly doubt they will ever offer lossless audio.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Gretiem

who is offering 10Gbps internet in the USA and how much ? I've been on 1Gbps fios for awhile now and netflix 4k streaming still doesnt look great. And im sure they will eventually up the bitrate on their 4k streams but I highly doubt they will ever offer lossless audio.

1Gbps internet service is like the Autobahn high speed expressway in Germany. Watching a Netflix 16 Mbps 4K stream is like peddling a bicycle on that high speed expressway.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Gretiem

who is offering 10Gbps internet in the USA and how much ? I've been on 1Gbps fios for awhile now and netflix 4k streaming still doesnt look great

5 years ago I was reading about a 100% fiber Internet provider in Minneapolis MN that offers 10Gbps upload and download residential speeds.


https://www.pcmag.com/news/330683/mi...internet-speed

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

5 years ago I was reading about a 100% fiber Internet provider in Minneapolis MN that offers 10Gbps upload and download residential speeds.


https://www.pcmag.com/news/330683/mi...internet-speed

At $399 per month. You always leave out the price. I doubt that the upload speed is really anywhere near that high and I saw no mention of whether or not there were any data caps involved.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

At $399 per month. You always leave out the price. I doubt that the upload speed is really anywhere near that high and I saw no mention of whether or not there were any data caps involved.

That is the 2014 price, 5 years later it could be $200. I would have to research.

[Vilya]

I can only find business internet service plans at 10 Gbps and they cost $7500 per month. They offer up to 100 Gbps for an additional $7500 per month for each 10 Gbps increment over the initial 10 Gbps. Sign me up!

https://stealth.net/services/internet/dedicated

This article, dated Nov. 19, 2018, lists the fastest consumer internet providers in the U.S.

https://www.reviews.org/internet-ser...net-providers/

They claim that Xfinity is the fastest with a 2 Gbps plan that costs $299.95 per month for the first two years and it requires a two year contract. After two years, the price is all but certain to be substantially higher.

[JohnAV]

This discussion is getting ridiculous. Should it be migrated to Digital vs Physical & The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread?