HDMI over CAT5/6 Cabling Baluns? - Blu-ray Forum

larryj763 · 09-29-2008, 06:47 PM

I have sort of an odd issue. I had a system all set up with a Marantz receiver (1.2 HDMI compatible), a Sony model 50 projector (Pearl), and a variety of inputs (not all but some HDMI). This all worked reliably for a period of over a year. I have a single run of HDMI cable from receiver to projector; this is a 50' cable purchased from HDTV Supply, which at the time was reported to be HDMI 1.3 compatible.

Because of improved technologies on the HDMI front in particular, I wanted a new receiver and purchased a Pioneer 94TXH. This gave me, among other things, 7.1 output without analog inputs.

This also worked fine for about a month. Then I started having problems with the projector and the receiver syncing up. Once they did, no further problems existed, but many times, turning power onto components would fail to produce an image on the projector. My "typical" solution was to pull/reinsert the HDMI cable at the projector (step stool came in really handy) until they managed to sync.

My dealer (Magnolia) set up one of their service/installer guys to come out and troubleshoot. I was suspicious of the Pioneer, which was the only new piece in the chain. However, the technician brought another HDMI cable with him, and with this other cable, all has been working well since that time, though obviously the cable is temporarily installed.

So, the claim is the cable is bad. I don't see how, but I can't really argue the point as yet either. Now, here's the thing. The cable I have is running through the walls, and there's no way to really replace it without ripping out the walls, unfortunately. The good news is, we also ran CAT5/6 wiring (can't remember which at this moment), so we could switch to carrying the signal with those, using baluns.

So, my primary question here, if you've stuck with me: Assuming someone else here is using this type of cabling, what baluns would be recommended. I'm leaning towards an Extron 201 A D, I believe, because it hides the baluns behind a wall plate. But I'll listen to other suggestions if there is good evidence of reliability or other characteristics.

Also, if anyone has experience with this Gefen "HDMI Super Booster PLUS" (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5000), I'd appreciate feedback on that as well.

Thanks!

mnfish · 12-07-2008, 04:18 PM

I've had same problem with this (projectors) and many tvs, bds and rcvrs. Cable is bad or not compatable. Cable needs to be replaced. And it may need to be replaced with a better grade cable. Going from a cheap cable to a better grade like Monster can make the difference. I've replaced the same grade to same grade and no go. But when I switched to Monster it worked. I am not a monster fan because they are so freakin expensive but you have to do what you have to do to make it work. If you can get the cheap cable and replace it and it doesn't work and bring it back then go for it. Then you might have to anti up and bend over and get the $250 cable. I also have a Sony Pearl that I have not hooked up yet but am hooking up a monster cable to it to begin with. It will be in the ceiling and wall so I'm hoping it will work from the start. Of course I'll plug it in first before any sheet rocking to make sure.

mnfish · 12-07-2008, 04:26 PM

BTW...I have a Denon 2307ci, Sony BDP300 and Direct TV HR21 for sources. I'm not sure how the Marantz is for a rcvr and HDMI compatabilty to the Sony Pearl? But I would think that the buys at Marantz probably use high end HDMI cables to test their equipment? Also...I've had more issues with Direct TV rcvrs, Comcast boxes, Dish Network, and Samsung BD players not being compatible via all HDMI cables. Many cables need to be swapped out. I have had no problems when these have been hooked up via component cables and optical or digital coax. But more wires are involved. And you won't get 1080p with component. Only HDMI.

mnfish · 12-07-2008, 05:21 PM

Sorry...I didn't read to the bottom all the way...I don't think adding a booster would help. It's only a compatibility problem...not a signal loss issue due to length. And if you buy it to try it can you take it back? If not your stuck with selling it on ebay or CL. And the CAT5 cabling device is 2k at the cheapest! You'd be better off replacing the cable then? This really sucks when you have this problem. We have had to replace and pay for the repair when we don't (and I haven't done it! but..) test the cable first. These HDMI cables should always be tested first especially in a pre-wire. And tested with a source and a tv. And even then it can be bad or incompatible. Like I said before..I have never had an issue with Monster cables. Liberty...yes. And others like that. It just plain sucks!!

Jacobisthe · 12-07-2008, 06:16 PM

Well it sounds like that the receiver doesn't have enough power, because the problem started when you got a new receiver. Try one of these, http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
it should make it work.

mnfish · 12-07-2008, 06:33 PM

That would be a cheaper and easier method if it works? Worth a try? If not you really haven't lost much.

ryoohki · 12-07-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnfish

That would be a cheaper and easier method if it works? Worth a try? If not you really haven't lost much.

Maybe you should get a HDMI repeter?????

gearyt · 12-16-2008, 02:39 PM

I utilize Magenta-Research, not a cheap solution but works very well

http://www.magenta-research.com/success.htm

I utilize it to distribute thoughout my entire property without loss

larryj763 · 12-18-2008, 12:46 PM

Since I started this discussion, I'll provide an update on my situation, which is not greatly improved.....

My "better half" insisted that the issue was with the Pioneer since it had worked at first, so Magnolia supplied another. It was even WORSE. Finally, we put the old Marantz back in place, and everything worked fine except:
1) We were back to having no 7.1 sound over HDMI.
2) The new Panny Blu-Ray player I had wouldn't work. In this case, the picture, when it was there at all, looked like "snow" (like tuning a TV channel that wasn't there).

So, still on the path that the receiver was the heart of the issue, we went with a new Marantz. And behold, EVERYTHING worked.

For about an hour. Now, the Panny doesn't, and incredibly the DVD player doesn't, which is connected via component video/digital audio. Int he DVD player case, the picture is there, but blinked off every 5 seconds or so for a second. The DirecTV and Netgear EVA8000 (both HDMI) work swell.

So, I called Marantz. Maybe I started out giving too much history, because they immediately concluded that 4 receivers, 4 problems, it wasn't the receiver.

And maybe they are right. They are tending to think it is the projector.

I, and Magnolia, are hoping it is the cable (and probably the length of it; nothing I've read says anything "nice" about HDMI cable runs as long as mine except for folks who sell them that long). So, Magnolia has ordered CAT5 cabling baluns from Extron for me to try.

More as the story unfolds.....

guitarist155 · 12-18-2008, 05:02 PM

it's a shame you can't pull another one through. i run a 40ft series-1 from bjc and have never had an issue ( not to say i won't, might be like yours and run into later on ) they claim to have run the cable well over 100ft without a problem. those baluns should do the trick, do you know what brand they are? these look great http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=3872 but sadly they are $500 but that would save you from having to rip out a wall or 2

larryj763 · 12-19-2008, 12:43 PM

Yes, I wasn't happy I couldn't pull another; they tacked it down for some reason, so nothing to pull it through with. At least we had the foresight to have the CAT5 cable put in at the same time.

I've looked at the Gefen baluns, but we're going with the Extron HDMI 201 A D (http://www.extron.com/product/produc...x&subtype=230), more expensive but has a clean look to keep the other half happier and the option to only require power at one end, whcih makes my choices simpler.

Who knows why it is acting up. My cable is somewhat longer than yours. According to the Marantz guy, everything in the system handshakes. So, for example, when I select the Blu-Ray player as input, the player handshakes with the Marantz, the player handshakes with the projector, and the Marantz handshakes with the projector. I'm not sure I know what to make of that. Assuming the same everywhere, why the DirecTV & Netgear can handshake with the other two (Marantz and projector) but not the Blu-Ray with them, or even odder the DVD (which isn't even HDMI so no handshaking needed, I presume) work correctly, since it is already known the Marantz and projector handshake fine when the DirecTV is in the chain, is beyond me. I thought it might have something to do with the different versions of HDMI that might be involved, but the Marantz guy said no. To him, it was more a matter of how long all that handshaking takes. And maybe. The longer cable run might cause some longer delays (not just length but a somewhat weaker signal causing some "misfires"?) and make the handshaking fail. But darn it, why did it work for a while and never since?

Tis a mystery.

RazorFromHRSnet · 12-19-2008, 05:35 PM

This is why I am a fan of conduit if possible.

guitarist155 · 12-19-2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RazorFromHRSnet

This is why I am a fan of conduit if possible.

i will be running conduit everywhere in my theater i can think to put it and then a couple more randomly placed

mnfish · 12-20-2008, 05:23 PM

The reason that the cable is tacked in is because that's the way it has to be for code in a pre-wire. Which sucks when you have this issue!! Maybe you can't pull the other one back but can you put access holes in and pull a new one thru? We've had to do that and then all you have are little holes to patch instead of the whole thing? And if Magnolia installed it there is a year warranty on it. And even if it was over a year if it didn't work from the get go you would have a good augment to get it replaced and have Magnolia pay for it all cuz it should have been checked first!

guitarist155 · 12-20-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnfish

The reason that the cable is tacked in is because that's the way it has to be for code in a pre-wire. Which sucks when you have this issue!! Maybe you can't pull the other one back but can you put access holes in and pull a new one thru? We've had to do that and then all you have are little holes to patch instead of the whole thing? And if Magnolia installed it there is a year warranty on it. And even if it was over a year if it didn't work from the get go you would have a good augment to get it replaced and have Magnolia pay for it all cuz it should have been checked first!

i forgot about the tack a foot code

mnfish · 12-20-2008, 07:46 PM

But if it's in conduit no problem!! We like conduit!!

And the bigger the better!! And if you can...put a pull string in it just in case you need to replace anything.

Hirtenberger · 12-20-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryj763

I have sort of an odd issue. I had a system all set up with a Marantz receiver (1.2 HDMI compatible), a Sony model 50 projector (Pearl), and a variety of inputs (not all but some HDMI). This all worked reliably for a period of over a year. I have a single run of HDMI cable from receiver to projector; this is a 50' cable purchased from HDTV Supply, which at the time was reported to be HDMI 1.3 compatible.

Because of improved technologies on the HDMI front in particular, I wanted a new receiver and purchased a Pioneer 94TXH. This gave me, among other things, 7.1 output without analog inputs.

This also worked fine for about a month. Then I started having problems with the projector and the receiver syncing up. Once they did, no further problems existed, but many times, turning power onto components would fail to produce an image on the projector. My "typical" solution was to pull/reinsert the HDMI cable at the projector (step stool came in really handy) until they managed to sync.

My dealer (Magnolia) set up one of their service/installer guys to come out and troubleshoot. I was suspicious of the Pioneer, which was the only new piece in the chain. However, the technician brought another HDMI cable with him, and with this other cable, all has been working well since that time, though obviously the cable is temporarily installed.

So, the claim is the cable is bad. I don't see how, but I can't really argue the point as yet either. Now, here's the thing. The cable I have is running through the walls, and there's no way to really replace it without ripping out the walls, unfortunately. The good news is, we also ran CAT5/6 wiring (can't remember which at this moment), so we could switch to carrying the signal with those, using baluns.

So, my primary question here, if you've stuck with me: Assuming someone else here is using this type of cabling, what baluns would be recommended. I'm leaning towards an Extron 201 A D, I believe, because it hides the baluns behind a wall plate. But I'll listen to other suggestions if there is good evidence of reliability or other characteristics.

Also, if anyone has experience with this Gefen "HDMI Super Booster PLUS" (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5000), I'd appreciate feedback on that as well.

Thanks!

I've used both the Extron and Gefen products and I wouldn't spend money on the Gefen again. Gefen will expect your install to only utilize Cat 5/6 STP. If you installed UTP they are likely to not stand behind their products.

I've found that Extron is better choice and we use alot of their products at work. One thing to consider is that depending upon which product you use you may have to power both ends.

Another poster already stated something that needs to be said again. While it won't help you with your current problem hopefully it will help someone else. Before you get wall cover be sure to test the cabling. It also helps to run extra cabling for future use or to use in situations that you are currently in.

As for the installation of conduit in the build thats great but realistically your going to need to install 1" or larger and that isn't realstic in most installations. Its great when its practical but...

mnfish · 12-20-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirtenberger

As for the installation of conduit in the build thats great but realistically your going to need to install 1" or larger and that isn't realstic in most installations. Its great when its practical but...

Very true!!

And like he said best bet would be to add another cable if possible and budget allows.

guitarist155 · 12-20-2008, 09:53 PM

are you saying practical based on holes put in your studs? i will be installing 1.5in conduit. trying to limit the in wall runs and keep everything in wall on a rise then do the runs above the drop ceiling to minimize stud damage, but i will also be running conduit to the main house zone by the main panel and to the outside for outdoor speakers and automation control.

mnfish · 12-20-2008, 10:14 PM

1 1/2" is good! PVC or Tech Tube (flex tubing). The hardest part of the run is trying to eliminate as many bends as possible. If you can put in a 1/4 circle piece instead of a 90 degree bend that would be best. And do it all without compromising the integrity of the std/bldg.

That's why we say it's usually not feasible to do.

09-29-2008, 06:47 PM	#1
larryj763 Member Member since:Mar 2007 Location:San Francisco Home Theater Gallery:11 Blu-ray collection:1	HDMI over CAT5/6 Cabling Baluns? I have sort of an odd issue. I had a system all set up with a Marantz receiver (1.2 HDMI compatible), a Sony model 50 projector (Pearl), and a variety of inputs (not all but some HDMI). This all worked reliably for a period of over a year. I have a single run of HDMI cable from receiver to projector; this is a 50' cable purchased from HDTV Supply, which at the time was reported to be HDMI 1.3 compatible. Because of improved technologies on the HDMI front in particular, I wanted a new receiver and purchased a Pioneer 94TXH. This gave me, among other things, 7.1 output without analog inputs. This also worked fine for about a month. Then I started having problems with the projector and the receiver syncing up. Once they did, no further problems existed, but many times, turning power onto components would fail to produce an image on the projector. My "typical" solution was to pull/reinsert the HDMI cable at the projector (step stool came in really handy) until they managed to sync. My dealer (Magnolia) set up one of their service/installer guys to come out and troubleshoot. I was suspicious of the Pioneer, which was the only new piece in the chain. However, the technician brought another HDMI cable with him, and with this other cable, all has been working well since that time, though obviously the cable is temporarily installed. So, the claim is the cable is bad. I don't see how, but I can't really argue the point as yet either. Now, here's the thing. The cable I have is running through the walls, and there's no way to really replace it without ripping out the walls, unfortunately. The good news is, we also ran CAT5/6 wiring (can't remember which at this moment), so we could switch to carrying the signal with those, using baluns. So, my primary question here, if you've stuck with me: Assuming someone else here is using this type of cabling, what baluns would be recommended. I'm leaning towards an Extron 201 A D, I believe, because it hides the baluns behind a wall plate. But I'll listen to other suggestions if there is good evidence of reliability or other characteristics. Also, if anyone has experience with this Gefen "HDMI Super Booster PLUS" (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5000), I'd appreciate feedback on that as well. Thanks!

12-18-2008, 05:02 PM	#10
guitarist155 Special Member Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jan 2008 Location:nashville Home Theater Gallery:45 4K collection:11 Blu-ray collection:134 DVD collection:3 Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:1	it's a shame you can't pull another one through. i run a 40ft series-1 from bjc and have never had an issue ( not to say i won't, might be like yours and run into later on ) they claim to have run the cable well over 100ft without a problem. those baluns should do the trick, do you know what brand they are? these look great http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=3872 but sadly they are $500 but that would save you from having to rip out a wall or 2 Last edited by guitarist155; 12-18-2008 at 05:15 PM.

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12-07-2008, 04:18 PM	#2
mnfish Active Member Member since:Dec 2008 Blu-ray collection:242 Trading Score:7	I've had same problem with this (projectors) and many tvs, bds and rcvrs. Cable is bad or not compatable. Cable needs to be replaced. And it may need to be replaced with a better grade cable. Going from a cheap cable to a better grade like Monster can make the difference. I've replaced the same grade to same grade and no go. But when I switched to Monster it worked. I am not a monster fan because they are so freakin expensive but you have to do what you have to do to make it work. If you can get the cheap cable and replace it and it doesn't work and bring it back then go for it. Then you might have to anti up and bend over and get the $250 cable. I also have a Sony Pearl that I have not hooked up yet but am hooking up a monster cable to it to begin with. It will be in the ceiling and wall so I'm hoping it will work from the start. Of course I'll plug it in first before any sheet rocking to make sure.

12-07-2008, 04:26 PM	#3
mnfish Active Member Member since:Dec 2008 Blu-ray collection:242 Trading Score:7	BTW...I have a Denon 2307ci, Sony BDP300 and Direct TV HR21 for sources. I'm not sure how the Marantz is for a rcvr and HDMI compatabilty to the Sony Pearl? But I would think that the buys at Marantz probably use high end HDMI cables to test their equipment? Also...I've had more issues with Direct TV rcvrs, Comcast boxes, Dish Network, and Samsung BD players not being compatible via all HDMI cables. Many cables need to be swapped out. I have had no problems when these have been hooked up via component cables and optical or digital coax. But more wires are involved. And you won't get 1080p with component. Only HDMI.

12-07-2008, 05:21 PM	#4
mnfish Active Member Member since:Dec 2008 Blu-ray collection:242 Trading Score:7	Sorry...I didn't read to the bottom all the way...I don't think adding a booster would help. It's only a compatibility problem...not a signal loss issue due to length. And if you buy it to try it can you take it back? If not your stuck with selling it on ebay or CL. And the CAT5 cabling device is 2k at the cheapest! You'd be better off replacing the cable then? This really sucks when you have this problem. We have had to replace and pay for the repair when we don't (and I haven't done it! but..) test the cable first. These HDMI cables should always be tested first especially in a pre-wire. And tested with a source and a tv. And even then it can be bad or incompatible. Like I said before..I have never had an issue with Monster cables. Liberty...yes. And others like that. It just plain sucks!!

12-07-2008, 06:16 PM	#5
Jacobisthe Member Member since:Jan 2008	Well it sounds like that the receiver doesn't have enough power, because the problem started when you got a new receiver. Try one of these, http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 it should make it work.

12-07-2008, 06:33 PM	#6
mnfish Active Member Member since:Dec 2008 Blu-ray collection:242 Trading Score:7	That would be a cheaper and easier method if it works? Worth a try? If not you really haven't lost much.

12-16-2008, 02:39 PM	#8
gearyt Power Member Member since:Aug 2007 Location:Henderson, NV Home Theater Gallery:8 Blu-ray collection:33	I utilize Magenta-Research, not a cheap solution but works very well http://www.magenta-research.com/success.htm I utilize it to distribute thoughout my entire property without loss

12-18-2008, 12:46 PM	#9
larryj763 Member Member since:Mar 2007 Location:San Francisco Home Theater Gallery:11 Blu-ray collection:1	Since I started this discussion, I'll provide an update on my situation, which is not greatly improved..... My "better half" insisted that the issue was with the Pioneer since it had worked at first, so Magnolia supplied another. It was even WORSE. Finally, we put the old Marantz back in place, and everything worked fine except: 1) We were back to having no 7.1 sound over HDMI. 2) The new Panny Blu-Ray player I had wouldn't work. In this case, the picture, when it was there at all, looked like "snow" (like tuning a TV channel that wasn't there). So, still on the path that the receiver was the heart of the issue, we went with a new Marantz. And behold, EVERYTHING worked. For about an hour. Now, the Panny doesn't, and incredibly the DVD player doesn't, which is connected via component video/digital audio. Int he DVD player case, the picture is there, but blinked off every 5 seconds or so for a second. The DirecTV and Netgear EVA8000 (both HDMI) work swell. So, I called Marantz. Maybe I started out giving too much history, because they immediately concluded that 4 receivers, 4 problems, it wasn't the receiver. And maybe they are right. They are tending to think it is the projector. I, and Magnolia, are hoping it is the cable (and probably the length of it; nothing I've read says anything "nice" about HDMI cable runs as long as mine except for folks who sell them that long). So, Magnolia has ordered CAT5 cabling baluns from Extron for me to try. More as the story unfolds.....

12-19-2008, 12:43 PM	#11
larryj763 Member Member since:Mar 2007 Location:San Francisco Home Theater Gallery:11 Blu-ray collection:1	Yes, I wasn't happy I couldn't pull another; they tacked it down for some reason, so nothing to pull it through with. At least we had the foresight to have the CAT5 cable put in at the same time. I've looked at the Gefen baluns, but we're going with the Extron HDMI 201 A D (http://www.extron.com/product/produc...x&subtype=230), more expensive but has a clean look to keep the other half happier and the option to only require power at one end, whcih makes my choices simpler. Who knows why it is acting up. My cable is somewhat longer than yours. According to the Marantz guy, everything in the system handshakes. So, for example, when I select the Blu-Ray player as input, the player handshakes with the Marantz, the player handshakes with the projector, and the Marantz handshakes with the projector. I'm not sure I know what to make of that. Assuming the same everywhere, why the DirecTV & Netgear can handshake with the other two (Marantz and projector) but not the Blu-Ray with them, or even odder the DVD (which isn't even HDMI so no handshaking needed, I presume) work correctly, since it is already known the Marantz and projector handshake fine when the DirecTV is in the chain, is beyond me. I thought it might have something to do with the different versions of HDMI that might be involved, but the Marantz guy said no. To him, it was more a matter of how long all that handshaking takes. And maybe. The longer cable run might cause some longer delays (not just length but a somewhat weaker signal causing some "misfires"?) and make the handshaking fail. But darn it, why did it work for a while and never since? Tis a mystery.

12-19-2008, 05:35 PM	#12
RazorFromHRSnet Active Member Member since:Mar 2008 Blu-ray collection:89 Blu-ray reviews:1	This is why I am a fan of conduit if possible.

12-20-2008, 05:23 PM	#14
mnfish Active Member Member since:Dec 2008 Blu-ray collection:242 Trading Score:7	The reason that the cable is tacked in is because that's the way it has to be for code in a pre-wire. Which sucks when you have this issue!! Maybe you can't pull the other one back but can you put access holes in and pull a new one thru? We've had to do that and then all you have are little holes to patch instead of the whole thing? And if Magnolia installed it there is a year warranty on it. And even if it was over a year if it didn't work from the get go you would have a good augment to get it replaced and have Magnolia pay for it all cuz it should have been checked first!

12-20-2008, 07:46 PM	#16
mnfish Active Member Member since:Dec 2008 Blu-ray collection:242 Trading Score:7	But if it's in conduit no problem!! We like conduit!! And the bigger the better!! And if you can...put a pull string in it just in case you need to replace anything.

12-20-2008, 09:53 PM	#19
guitarist155 Special Member Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jan 2008 Location:nashville Home Theater Gallery:45 4K collection:11 Blu-ray collection:134 DVD collection:3 Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:1	are you saying practical based on holes put in your studs? i will be installing 1.5in conduit. trying to limit the in wall runs and keep everything in wall on a rise then do the runs above the drop ceiling to minimize stud damage, but i will also be running conduit to the main house zone by the main panel and to the outside for outdoor speakers and automation control.

12-20-2008, 10:14 PM	#20
mnfish Active Member Member since:Dec 2008 Blu-ray collection:242 Trading Score:7	1 1/2" is good! PVC or Tech Tube (flex tubing). The hardest part of the run is trying to eliminate as many bends as possible. If you can put in a 1/4 circle piece instead of a 90 degree bend that would be best. And do it all without compromising the integrity of the std/bldg. That's why we say it's usually not feasible to do.

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