Receivers 101 - PCM??? - Blu-ray Forum

sparksj · 05-13-2008, 02:24 PM

I have been in the market for a Receiver. The places I shop have store reps that don't know what they're talking about, so I have been forced to research on my own. I am a bit confused about PCM and what receiver to buy. As I have become addicted to this forum, I have found that the people in this forum seem to be the most knowledgeable around when it comes to this kind of thing.

. Here are my questions.

1. I recently bought an older "open box" receiver only to find that the HDMI only passes video and not sound. As I read the stats on the different boxes, it is not always clear whether they pass video only, or sound and video. What should I look for to indicate this?

2. I have seen some receivers list things like DD 5.1, DTS, etc. In the list it also lists PCM. However, I have read that PCM can be stereo only. Are there two kinds of PCM? If the BR disk has lossless PCM how do I know if my receiver can handle that in full surround or stereo? My guess was that PCM just means lossless and if the PCM source is 5.1 channels, then it will be full surround and if the source is stereo, then I'll just get stereo. Is that correct?

3. Since I play BRs on my PS3, I know Ithat I don't have to get a receiver that decodes DTS HD MA. My understanding is that the PS3 decodes it and then passes it though the receiver. What would I look at on the receiver stats to know if it can do this? Is this simply PCM output too?

I guess in the end, I could just ask for advice on what receiver to buy but, as much as I want the best sound, I also don't have tons to spend. My spending goal for the receiver (without speakers) around $400 +- $100.

I know there are a lot of questions on this, but I would appreciate any clarity you could provide on this.

HDJK · 05-13-2008, 02:31 PM

1. HDMI can transport audio since HDMI version 1.0. It's up to the manufacturer what to implement.

2. In general correct (there is only one PCM, that's the uncompressed digital audio format). But it depends on the connection. If you go HDMI your receiver can accept 5.1 or (7.1) PCM. If you connect your player via optical you are limited to 2 channel PCM or lossy (DD, DTS) 5.1.

3. If your receiver will handle audio over HDMI you don't need it to decode DTS HD MA, the PS3 will decode it and output PCM for you.

I would look into the Onkyo 605 (gets recommended a lot around here) or Denon midrange.

sparksj · 05-13-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDJK

1. HDMI can transport audio since HDMI version 1.0. It's up to the manufacturer what to implement.

So how can you tell if a receiver is set up to transfer audio? My Sony receiver does not, but there was nothing on the box that indicated whether it did. Maybe I have something set up incorrectly???

HDJK · 05-13-2008, 03:35 PM

It usually says something like 'audio pass through' if it doesn't process any audio over HDMI. Other than that I'm afraid you have to research your receiver on the internet before you buy it to avoid any unpleasant surprises.

Once you hit a certain price segment though it's not an issue anymore. The Onkyo 605 goes for 399 I think and it accepts all audio codecs.

moviefan · 05-13-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparksj

So how can you tell if a receiver is set up to transfer audio? My Sony receiver does not, but there was nothing on the box that indicated whether it did. Maybe I have something set up incorrectly???

What is the model # of your Sony receiver?

Slec · 05-13-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparksj

So how can you tell if a receiver is set up to transfer audio? My Sony receiver does not, but there was nothing on the box that indicated whether it did. Maybe I have something set up incorrectly???

What model receiver do you have?

chasarms · 05-13-2008, 06:36 PM

PCM (pulse-code modulation) is the "raw" form of digital audio. Simply put, it is a digital representation of the analog wave form. All encoded audio tracks, whether the latest "lossless" DTS HD MA and TrueHD or the older Dolby and DTS, are decoded to PCM before being converted to analog by the D/A processors in the receiver.

If you are using a PS3, it will do all of the decoding. ALL audio output, without regard to the disc source, can be output to the receiver as PCM. However, the PS3 does NOT output MULTI-CHANNEL PCM (5.1/7.1) via optical. The optical output is only capable of 2-channel PCM output. With an optical audio connection, you have only the option of stereo PCM.

If you only have an optical audio connection from your PS3, you can bitstream the older codecs (Dolby 5.1, DTS core) to the receiver. The receiver will then decode and D/A convert onboard and output. You'll get surround sound, but not lossless.

The PS3 only outputs multi-channel PCM via HDMI.

So, in short, you one question when considering a receiver is:

"Does this unit accept multi-channel PCM audio via HDMI?" If, "yes," then you are OK.

sparksj · 05-13-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasarms

PCM (pulse-code modulation) is the "raw" form of digital audio. Simply put, it is a digital representation of the analog wave form. All encoded audio tracks, whether the latest "lossless" DTS HD MA and TrueHD or the older Dolby and DTS, are decoded to PCM before being converted to analog by the D/A processors in the receiver.

If you are using a PS3, it will do all of the decoding. ALL audio output, without regard to the disc source, can be output to the receiver as PCM. However, the PS3 does NOT output MULTI-CHANNEL PCM (5.1/7.1) via optical. The optical output is only capable of 2-channel PCM output. With an optical audio connection, you have only the option of stereo PCM.

If you only have an optical audio connection from your PS3, you can bitstream the older codecs (Dolby 5.1, DTS core) to the receiver. The receiver will then decode and D/A convert onboard and output. You'll get surround sound, but not lossless.

The PS3 only outputs multi-channel PCM via HDMI.

So, in short, you one question when considering a receiver is:

"Does this unit accept multi-channel PCM audio via HDMI?" If, "yes," then you are OK.

That helps a lot Thanks!

crackinhedz · 05-13-2008, 07:48 PM

off the top of my head, these are probably the cheapest HDMI Receivers that can process multichannel PCM from the PS3.

Sony Str-dg810 (5.1 pcm)
Sony Str-dg910 (7.1 pcm)
Sony Str-dg1000 (7.1 pcm?)

Onkyo TX-SR604 (5.1 pcm)
Onkyo TX-SR804 (5.1 pcm)

Yamaha RX-V661 (7.1 pcm)
Yamaha RX-V861 (7.1 pcm)

If you can find these being sold anywhere, it will probably be the cheapest you will find...they are last years models and are being discontinued...

So honestly, you would be better off looking into a newer HDMI v1.3 Receiver. But for cheap, the ones above will do what you need.

timer00 · 05-13-2008, 09:05 PM

I just got the Sony DG-720 (new model) for $300 that does 7.1 PCM. Works great as a budget receiver.
Its HDMI 1.3 compliant also.

crackinhedz · 05-13-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

I just got the Sony DG-720 (new model) for $300 that does 7.1 PCM. Works great as a budget receiver.
Its HDMI 1.3 compliant also.

...also a very decent entry level Receiver.

jon s · 05-13-2008, 10:46 PM

While I must admit to be a Sony fan, I do NOT recommend their AV receivers because their amplifiers are way over-rated. Onkyo/Yamaha/Denon/Pioneer receivers seem to be able to deliver nearly the rated power to the speakers when all the channels are driven simultaneously. example, the Onkyo TX-NR905 is rated 130wpc, when all channels are driven, they have been tested to deliver about 110-120wpc (note that the manufacturer specs usually do not rate the amps with all channels driven).

Sony receivers deliver their rated power when driving one or two channels, but even their ES lines crap out when all channels are driven. Rated at 110 wpc, they usually can deliver only about 35wpc when all channels are driven. That's about 4-5dB lower than the other brands. While it does not seem much, this indicates that the amplifier section does not have the current to deliver as much during peaks and transients. in fact, reviewers have said that the Sonys seem to run out of gas during loud sections of movies...

JasonR · 05-13-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timer00

I just got the Sony DG-720 (new model) for $300 that does 7.1 PCM. Works great as a budget receiver.
Its HDMI 1.3 compliant also.

That or the 820 for 20 dollars more. All the decoding for 20 dollars, nice....

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/def...px?EDC=1450211

JasonR · 05-13-2008, 10:56 PM

I could probably get 30 or more dollars knocked off because I have a corporate account. This is what it would probably cost the average consumer though.

BigBluu · 05-13-2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonR

That or the 820 for 20 dollars more. All the decoding for 20 dollars, nice....

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/def...px?EDC=1450211

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonR

I could probably get 30 or more dollars knocked off because I have a corporate account. This is what it would probably cost the average consumer though.

damn...that's an awesome price for the 820. lowest i've seen yet. thanks for the link!

JasonR · 05-13-2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBluu

damn...that's an awesome price for the 820. lowest i've seen yet. thanks for the link!

The availability says "call" that just means they don't have it yet. It would be a preorder. I can call my corporate rep tomorrow to see when they will start shipping if people are interested...

BigBluu · 05-13-2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonR

The availability says "call" that just means they don't have it yet. It would be a preorder. I can call my corporate rep tomorrow to see when they will start shipping if people are interested...

yeah, i know it's not out yet. sony's site indicates it'll be available 5/23/08. but i have not been able to find it for preorder for anything less than sony's msrp of $399...until now.

JasonR · 05-13-2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBluu

yeah, i know it's not out yet. sony's site indicates it'll be available 5/23/08. but i have not been able to find it for preorder for anything less than sony's msrp of $399...until now.

I am looking into this amp and the 920. If I get it through them, I can get it payroll deducted, over however many payments I want to do, and with no interest. That alone is making that receiver look good to me....

sparksj · 05-15-2008, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moviefan

What is the model # of your Sony receiver?

Sorry for the late response. I have a Sony STR-K7100. It came as a set with the speakers and sub. Normally I would have held out for a better one but I found it open box at BB for $160, so couldn't pass it up.

The specs say:
"HDMI™ Passthrough Powerful HDMI™ connectivity allows for uncompressed audio and video to pass through directly to your HDMI™ -compatible television." Which makes it sound like there is pass through to the TV, but not to the suround speakers.

Is it possible that both my cable and my 360 elite (my PS3 is not hooked to the receiver... YET) are the ones not passing sound through the HDMI? My friend's 360 elite passes sound to his receiver via HDMI.
to get sound from my cable box I had to hook up a coax cable and I had to run optical cable from the Elite???

Edit: I just found the PCM setting, but even when set to PCM, the sound goes away when I unhook the optical cable.

Oh Well, the Onkyo is well within my price range, so it's looks like the best bet.

05-13-2008, 02:24 PM	#1
sparksj Active Member Member since:Nov 2007	Receivers 101 - PCM??? I have been in the market for a Receiver. The places I shop have store reps that don't know what they're talking about, so I have been forced to research on my own. I am a bit confused about PCM and what receiver to buy. As I have become addicted to this forum, I have found that the people in this forum seem to be the most knowledgeable around when it comes to this kind of thing. . Here are my questions. 1. I recently bought an older "open box" receiver only to find that the HDMI only passes video and not sound. As I read the stats on the different boxes, it is not always clear whether they pass video only, or sound and video. What should I look for to indicate this? 2. I have seen some receivers list things like DD 5.1, DTS, etc. In the list it also lists PCM. However, I have read that PCM can be stereo only. Are there two kinds of PCM? If the BR disk has lossless PCM how do I know if my receiver can handle that in full surround or stereo? My guess was that PCM just means lossless and if the PCM source is 5.1 channels, then it will be full surround and if the source is stereo, then I'll just get stereo. Is that correct? 3. Since I play BRs on my PS3, I know Ithat I don't have to get a receiver that decodes DTS HD MA. My understanding is that the PS3 decodes it and then passes it though the receiver. What would I look at on the receiver stats to know if it can do this? Is this simply PCM output too? I guess in the end, I could just ask for advice on what receiver to buy but, as much as I want the best sound, I also don't have tons to spend. My spending goal for the receiver (without speakers) around $400 +- $100. I know there are a lot of questions on this, but I would appreciate any clarity you could provide on this.

05-13-2008, 02:31 PM	#2
HDJK Blu-ray Guru Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Switzerland Trading Score:2	1. HDMI can transport audio since HDMI version 1.0. It's up to the manufacturer what to implement. 2. In general correct (there is only one PCM, that's the uncompressed digital audio format). But it depends on the connection. If you go HDMI your receiver can accept 5.1 or (7.1) PCM. If you connect your player via optical you are limited to 2 channel PCM or lossy (DD, DTS) 5.1. 3. If your receiver will handle audio over HDMI you don't need it to decode DTS HD MA, the PS3 will decode it and output PCM for you. I would look into the Onkyo 605 (gets recommended a lot around here) or Denon midrange. Last edited by HDJK; 05-13-2008 at 03:25 PM.

05-13-2008, 06:36 PM	#7
chasarms Active Member Member since:Feb 2008 Location:St. Louis Blu-ray reviews: 1	PCM (pulse-code modulation) is the "raw" form of digital audio. Simply put, it is a digital representation of the analog wave form. All encoded audio tracks, whether the latest "lossless" DTS HD MA and TrueHD or the older Dolby and DTS, are decoded to PCM before being converted to analog by the D/A processors in the receiver. If you are using a PS3, it will do all of the decoding. ALL audio output, without regard to the disc source, can be output to the receiver as PCM. However, the PS3 does NOT output MULTI-CHANNEL PCM (5.1/7.1) via optical. The optical output is only capable of 2-channel PCM output. With an optical audio connection, you have only the option of stereo PCM. If you only have an optical audio connection from your PS3, you can bitstream the older codecs (Dolby 5.1, DTS core) to the receiver. The receiver will then decode and D/A convert onboard and output. You'll get surround sound, but not lossless. The PS3 only outputs multi-channel PCM via HDMI. So, in short, you one question when considering a receiver is: "Does this unit accept multi-channel PCM audio via HDMI?" If, "yes," then you are OK. Last edited by chasarms; 05-13-2008 at 06:39 PM.

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05-13-2008, 03:35 PM	#4
HDJK Blu-ray Guru Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Switzerland Trading Score:2	It usually says something like 'audio pass through' if it doesn't process any audio over HDMI. Other than that I'm afraid you have to research your receiver on the internet before you buy it to avoid any unpleasant surprises. Once you hit a certain price segment though it's not an issue anymore. The Onkyo 605 goes for 399 I think and it accepts all audio codecs.

05-13-2008, 07:48 PM	#9
crackinhedz Super Moderator Member since:Feb 2007 Home Theater Gallery:10 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:19	off the top of my head, these are probably the cheapest HDMI Receivers that can process multichannel PCM from the PS3. Sony Str-dg810 (5.1 pcm) Sony Str-dg910 (7.1 pcm) Sony Str-dg1000 (7.1 pcm?) Onkyo TX-SR604 (5.1 pcm) Onkyo TX-SR804 (5.1 pcm) Yamaha RX-V661 (7.1 pcm) Yamaha RX-V861 (7.1 pcm) If you can find these being sold anywhere, it will probably be the cheapest you will find...they are last years models and are being discontinued... So honestly, you would be better off looking into a newer HDMI v1.3 Receiver. But for cheap, the ones above will do what you need.

05-13-2008, 09:05 PM	#10
timer00 Member Member since:Nov 2007 Location:Eastern PA Blu-ray reviews:2	I just got the Sony DG-720 (new model) for $300 that does 7.1 PCM. Works great as a budget receiver. Its HDMI 1.3 compliant also.

05-13-2008, 10:46 PM	#12
jon s Active Member Member since:May 2007 Blu-ray reviews:3	While I must admit to be a Sony fan, I do NOT recommend their AV receivers because their amplifiers are way over-rated. Onkyo/Yamaha/Denon/Pioneer receivers seem to be able to deliver nearly the rated power to the speakers when all the channels are driven simultaneously. example, the Onkyo TX-NR905 is rated 130wpc, when all channels are driven, they have been tested to deliver about 110-120wpc (note that the manufacturer specs usually do not rate the amps with all channels driven). Sony receivers deliver their rated power when driving one or two channels, but even their ES lines crap out when all channels are driven. Rated at 110 wpc, they usually can deliver only about 35wpc when all channels are driven. That's about 4-5dB lower than the other brands. While it does not seem much, this indicates that the amplifier section does not have the current to deliver as much during peaks and transients. in fact, reviewers have said that the Sonys seem to run out of gas during loud sections of movies...

05-13-2008, 10:56 PM	#14
JasonR Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Nov 2007 Trading Score:12	I could probably get 30 or more dollars knocked off because I have a corporate account. This is what it would probably cost the average consumer though.

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