Please explain preamps for me

[Intamin]

Title says it all. I don't understand why preamps, or processors, are all more expensive than an avr that includes the amps? It would seem to me that the avr should be more expensive than the preamp, since more is included. Also, have people had much luck using avr's as pres to separate amps? Finally, any brands out there that make a pre in the sub $2000 range, the only thing I can think of is the Integra 9.8. I'm just trying to figure out the best combo for the money. Currently it's looking like an Integra 7.8 with an anthem statement a2 amp that checks in at 2500 msrp. Thoughts on combos and an explanation as to why pres cost more would be great!

[RUR]

I suspect that an AVR which had all of the bells and whistles of the 9.8 (better DAC's, Reon processing, etc etc) would be more expensive (see Denon 4308/5308 and such), and the amp sections of most AVR's are easily bettered by some fairly modest stand-alone amps. To put it another way, when you buy a 9.8 pre/pro, you're buying the front end of a very nice (and expensive) AVR.

What's your budget for Pre/pro + amp? 5.1 or 7.1? Do you want a separate 2ch preamp for music only? Used or new only?

[red_5ive]

Originally Posted by RUR

I suspect that an AVR which had all of the bells and whistles of the 9.8 (better DAC's, Reon processing, etc etc) would be more expensive (see Denon 4308/5308 and such), and the amp sections of most AVR's are easily bettered by some fairly modest stand-alone amps. To put it another way, when you buy a 9.8 pre/pro, you're buying the front end of a very nice (and expensive) AVR.

This generally sums it up in my experience. I've used a $4k flagship AVR and a $1k AVR to the same power amps and I much prefer the overall sound of the flagship model in 2 ch music and HT. I'll also note that this cleaned up the sound even for the flagship AVR, which didn't even compete using the internal amps.

So I guess this also answers the other question that I've used an AVR with an external amp with very favorable results. To answer the last question, Emotiva and Outlaw Audio "should" be releasing pre-pros with full hdmi 1.3a support by 3rd or 4th quarter, depending on the current state of processor delays that are (Emotiva) or were (Outlaw) to be used. Both these companies have made a stir the last few years in the separates price/performance category. If you do check either out, don't be fooled by the pricing. They both sell factory direct over th internet and hence less overhead and no middle-man, but they both make quality gear that really do perform.

[Intamin]

Well, in my limited listening it sounded to me that the receiver department is the biggest area for diminishing returns. My fiance is buying the avr or pre (whichever I choose) as a birthday gift, so I'd like to keep it at 1500 or under. For B&M brands, I was looking at Pioneer Elite (the 94 is 1399 right now), Integra 7.8 or the pre 9.8, Marantz, and Denon. They all seem to have pretty much the same bells and whistles to me. I'll also look at the ID brands for the bang for the buck factor.

EDIT: Just looked at the Emotiva and Outlaw, and the Emotiva looks pretty sweet, and very reasonable in price.

[RUR]

If it were me, I'd get the 9.8 and use the amp-in on your existing AVR until I found the right amp. In re: amps, we still need to know if you're looking for 5.1 or 7.1, your budget and new or used before we can recommend anything.

[Woody]

Originally Posted by RUR

I suspect that an AVR which had all of the bells and whistles of the 9.8 (better DAC's, Reon processing, etc etc) would be more expensive (see Denon 4308/5308 and such), and the amp sections of most AVR's are easily bettered by some fairly modest stand-alone amps. To put it another way, when you buy a 9.8 pre/pro, you're buying the front end of a very nice (and expensive) AVR.

What's your budget for Pre/pro + amp? 5.1 or 7.1? Do you want a separate 2ch preamp for music only? Used or new only?

+1

The 9.8 is essentially the 8.8 AVR without the amps. The 8.8 retails for $2400.

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by RUR

If it were me, I'd get the 9.8 and use the amp-in on your existing AVR until I found the right amp. In re: amps, we still need to know if you're looking for 5.1 or 7.1, your budget and new or used before we can recommend anything.

I've already picked out the amps. Getting the Anthem Statement A2 since I only have towers, and will add the A5 when I add the surrounds.

[RUR]

Then we're done here. Get the 9.8 since it's the best pre/pro (for now) in your price range, hook it up to the Anthem and enjoy.

[Woody]

Originally Posted by RUR

Then we're done here. Get the 9.8 since it's the best pre/pro (for now) in your price range, hook it up to the Anthem and enjoy.

+1

[Intamin]

One last question, how important are balanced outputs. I was comparing the features of the 7.8 receiver and the 9.8 pre, and the only thing that the 9.8 has different (besides a couple of extra features that I can't see myself using) is balanced outputs. How important/necessary is this, especially when I plan on using good interconnects to begin with?

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by Intamin

Well, in my limited listening it sounded to me that the receiver department is the biggest area for diminishing returns. My fiance is buying the avr or pre (whichever I choose) as a birthday gift, so I'd like to keep it at 1500 or under. For B&M brands, I was looking at Pioneer Elite (the 94 is 1399 right now), Integra 7.8 or the pre 9.8, Marantz, and Denon. They all seem to have pretty much the same bells and whistles to me. I'll also look at the ID brands for the bang for the buck factor.

EDIT: Just looked at the Emotiva and Outlaw, and the Emotiva looks pretty sweet, and very reasonable in price.

You can look at the NAD T175, I am not sure of the US price but it probably is in that ball park.

[red_5ive]

Originally Posted by Intamin

One last question, how important are balanced outputs. I was comparing the features of the 7.8 receiver and the 9.8 pre, and the only thing that the 9.8 has different (besides a couple of extra features that I can't see myself using) is balanced outputs. How important/necessary is this, especially when I plan on using good interconnects to begin with?

Balanced connections are good for long cable runs (like across a room) or for canceling frequency noise. If you're not doing any long runs or have anything that might introduce frequency noise along the cable path then just stick with rca interconnects with good shielding.

[canonbomb1987]

sorry to hijack you thread but i didnt wanna start a new one seeing how my que is similar to yours. i have an onkyo 606 and polk audio speakers (RTiA series). The onkyo only outputs 90 watts per channel. can i hook an amp in between? do i pick an amp or an avr? i am really confused about the relationship between an amp and avr. any help would be apprecaited.

once again sorry for thread hijaking.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by RUR

Then we're done here. Get the 9.8 since it's the best pre/pro (for now) in your price range, hook it up to the Anthem and enjoy.

+1 and 10-4, the Integra is the best prepro at that price point right now. I'm using a Yamaha RX-V663 for now as a prepro, but as newer, true prepro models come out - watch my sig - it will change !

[prerich]

Originally Posted by canonbomb1987

sorry to hijack you thread but i didnt wanna start a new one seeing how my que is similar to yours. i have an onkyo 606 and polk audio speakers (RTiA series). The onkyo only outputs 90 watts per channel. can i hook an amp in between? do i pick an amp or an avr? i am really confused about the relationship between an amp and avr. any help would be apprecaited.

once again sorry for thread hijaking.

Nope, the 606 doesn't have preouts - you have to go up to the 705 and above for those features (one of the reasons I'm a fan of the Yamaha's, Denon's, and Marantz receivers - preouts at low pirce points).

[RUR]

Originally Posted by prerich

+1 and 10-4, the Integra is the best prepro at that price point right now. I'm using a Yamaha RX-V663 for now as a prepro, but as newer, true prepro models come out - watch my sig - it will change !

Sheesh, I'm getting tired of waiting for all the new pre-pros. The Cary (and a few others) have been "on the way" seemingly forever.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by RUR

Sheesh, I'm getting tired of waiting for all the new pre-pros. The Cary (and a few others) have been "on the way" seemingly forever.

I know how you feel

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by RUR

Sheesh, I'm getting tired of waiting for all the new pre-pros. The Cary (and a few others) have been "on the way" seemingly forever.

There is a thread on AVS about pre-amps if you have an interest where they outline everything available and what is annouced or believed to be coming out. I think there should be some from B&K and Parasound in the works. The high end stuff will always be slow to adopt and usually has more issues to overcome as they do not have the economy of scales and ability to test and troubleshoot.

I have read very closely all the issues with Rotel and NAD with their HDMI preamps (I have the NAD T175) and though they may offer better sound then typical receivers they do have more quirks that average users may not put up with.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by jdc115

There is a thread on AVS about pre-amps if you have an interest where they outline everything available and what is annouced or believed to be coming out.

I've been subscribed to Eric's thread for a while, if that's the one you mean.

[red_5ive]

Intamin, just curious if you found a good deal on the Integra DTC 9.8, and if so can you send me the link? Thanks...